Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by darth_kaoken, Apr 2, 2002.
Great, I killed the thread.
ill think of somethin
Good on you, Danlow.
Seriously, where did everybody go?
For the record --- Anakin doesn't say the Jedi encourage attachment, he says they encourage compassion. Then he says that he thinks compassion is unconditional love in essence. So there's no explanation needed here. He's just trying to look good to Padme.
I haven't been here for a good while, so I missed your responses to me on the previous page. However, I think bigbossnass said everything I would have liked to say. The only thing I might add is that while you are very much opposed to my assumptions about the Jedi being well prepared for the discovery of the Force, you still don't ever give much reasoning for believeing the dark side would have been mastered first - except for Yoda's line about it being quicker and easier. There are so many factors going into this that you blatantly ignore. Quicker and easier might not even have been a temptation to the beings that studied the Force back then. It certainly isn't a common Jedi trait in the much darker times of the Star Wars Saga. Thus I don't think the fact that the dark side is quicker and easier means that the Jedi mastered the dark side first. There is a huge and blind leap in the chain of reasoning right there.
You pointed to what you call a flaw in my theory - that I assume that those early Jedi were prepared for the dark powers the Force could potentially trigger. With all due respect, I find it hard to admit this as a flaw, as the history of the Jedi in the Star Wars archives (both EU and movie novelizations) is described thus; the Jedi Order was a theological and philosphical study group devoted to the great mysteries of being, much like monks and particularly monks in Eastern civilizations. After hundreds of years in contemplation they began to discover the existence of an energy field that could be manipulated. They dubbed it the Force and decided to change direction from silently contemplating the Universe to serving and protecting the best interest of the people of the galaxy. Based on this I think it is pretty safe to assume that those early "Jedi-monks" would not at all be completely unprepared for the tricky pitfalls on the way to mastering the Force.
You're right - I am assuming that these early Jedi are aware of the concept of emotions, aggressive and otherwise and that they do know of the dangers of anger. I feel it's a quite safe assumption to hold about a "theological and philosophical study group", as they are called. On the other hand, you're assuming they don't, aren't you?
To say that they wouldn't be aware of these things before discovering the Force is almost like saying that the Force creates emotions. And even if this was indeed true - it's an impossible reasoning; the Force will have existed and thus created emotions for millions of years before the Jedi discovered its existence. I don't really follow this reasoning.
Whether or not they are aware of the dark side is irrelevant. The dark side isn't an emotion or a state or even a part of the Force - it's a way of using the Force, for domination and personal gain and power. Those are things these early Jedi must have been pondering daily for many generations.
As I've said before - of course some of them must have failed. But it's a very far way from there to insisting that the dark side must have been mastered first.
Wow! The thread is resurected! I've really missed this discussion.
Adali, again we find ourselves in perfect agreement. By the nature of the monks and their practices of meditation, they would have been very well suited to using the light side when they first discovered the Force. Obviously, someone would have eventually discovered what happened if you used it differently. Because you are right, the Dark Side is not part of the Force, it is part ofthe user. HOW you use the Force is the important distinction that decides your path. And when our proto-Jedi discovered this, they devised a code to keep their students on the light path.
Because, Danlow, if the Dark Side use had come first, how woudl anyone have come to use the Light Side? If the monks found the Force, then used it for personal gain and domination, what posisble reason would they have had for changing paths? Logically, there would have had to be Light Side users around to stop the first Darksiders, or they would probaly still rule the Galaxy, and there would be no Jedi Knights.
Hope you don't mind, I spent a good amount of time reading this thread, and wanna join.
I will do my best not to regurgitate points, but alot has been said so far.
I think some of the recent posts relate back to earlier discussion on the true nature of 'force balance'.
Let's first start with some "facts".
Take a look at starwars.com's databank on the Sith. I think we can consider the information listed there fairly "canon." It states that the Sith order was founded by dissident Jedi who thought the true power of the force lie in "tapping into the dark side". This implies that the dark side has always existed, regardless of who used it--Dark Lords of the Sith, dark Jedi, or the indigenous wizards of the ancient Sith worlds. Thus, when GL says, as Adali-Kiri pointed out, "the dark side itself IS imbalance", if those were his exact words, then this contradicts what his own official website says of the nature of the dark side. How can the existence of the dark side be imbalance, if it has existed long before Jedi or Sith knew how to use it?
Let's not forget that the aforementioned interview with GL in all likeliness was an abridged explanation. Much like the movies, with the very simplistic dialogue, we can probably infer that there is more gray to these oversimplified black and white "truths". We determine the philosophy on star wars by the sum total--the dialogue in the movies, the interviews with GL, the background information in the novelizations and the SW website and the references the story makes to mythology and world religions. From this entire picture we must draw our conclusions on what is the reality of the figments of GL's imagination.
Therefore, I believe what GL meant to say is the USE of the dark side causes imbalance. Ancient Jedi, who truly used the force for knowledge and defense, and didn't get too wrapped up in the politics of the senate or the legalism of upholding the Jedi code, probably realized that the dark side was an inevitable reality. However, they learned they should stay away from it. Its probably like an addictive, destructive drug like cocaine or steroids. Its use corrupts, harms the body, and changes one's perceptions for the worse. While it takes much time and effort to build that elaborate sand castle on the beach, it only takes a second of minimal destructive effort for your bullyish big brother to come over and step on it. Likewise, it is the select few users of the quick and easy dark side that can so easily cause an imbalance to the diligence and discipline of the thousands of well trained Jedi. The issue is not the mere number of light side vs. dark side users, nor is the issue whether the Jedi council is one with the light side. The issue is that using the dark side causes imbalance--it should in fact never be used.
Having said that, my slightly topic changing rhetorical question is this: Palpatine must have heard the prophecy of the chosen one who brings balance. Why? Palpatine is around the Jedi all the time, and is well versed in Sith lore. Surely, he MUST have heard this prophecy before. He also MUST have heard that the Jedi suspect Anakin is the chosen one; he must have at least heard about the virgin birth and high midichlorian counts, and he certainly has had his eye on Anakin for quite some time. So why does Palpatine not consider this a threat to him? How must he be interpreting the prophecy, and what does he think "balance" must mean? After all, he wouldn't be so interested in Anakin unless he thought the prophecy could be used to his personal advantage. But the definition of the prophecy would mean that it is Anakin who would, in the end, have the most impact, and not Palpatine. What was this yahoo thinking?
Hello again. It's been a while since I've been able to post and even read posts. But, on the main page, I read an interesting excerpt about your 'oh so knowledgeable' Jedi Master Yoda. If you've read some of my ealier posts, you'll see that I've always maintained that Qui-Gon was much more in tune with the Force than the Jedi Council on a whole. Moreso, a lot of people seem to assume Yoda is not only the most powerful Force-wielder, but the most knowledgable of the medium. There was also some who said Yoda was strictly for the Light Side and being that, was better than one who has seen both paths to the Force. So, here's the official tidbit some of you have already seen.
This first battle of the Clone Wars was a victory for the Republic, but Yoda was troubled. Too much had been clouded by the dark side, and the judgment of the Jedi order was perhaps sullied by complacency and arrogance. Not only had many Jedi died on Geonosis, but the very nature of death itself was now unclear to the wise old master. While meditating, Yoda had felt a traumatic event befall young Anakin Skywalker. At that very moment, he also heard the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master slain a decade previous. It was impossible for a Jedi to retain his identity after becoming one with the Force, yet he had heard it.
It was another dangerous and disturbing puzzle for Yoda to solve while the Republic collapsed around him.
When the Empire arose from the ashes of the Republic, the Emperor's agents set out to slaughter the Jedi. Yoda went into hiding on the distant swamp world of Dagobah. There, he waited patiently for a new hope to arise and end the dark side threat to the people of the galaxy.[/blockquote]
Qui-Gon Jinn is definatelty heard yelling to Anakin in AotC! And, if some dont realize, Mr Lucas does not put 'flashbacks' into his SW series of movies. Everything happens real-time. When you hear Qui-Gon, it's him speaking thru the Force, the same way Ben does while Luke is flying the XWing in the trench-run. The most significant part of that above quote is that Yoda believes something which is not so. He believe it's impossible for a Jedi, or any Force-weilder I suppose, to retain their identity after becoming one with the Force, but as you see Yoda is wrong. The above quote can be interpreted many ways though. You could say that Qui-Gon didn't retain his identity, but Anakin or Yoda somehow brought his identity about. But I see it another way. I feel that Qui-Gon was so in tune with the Force that he broke that barrier. I say that because Anakin and Yoda heard Qui-Gon at the same time. Not just Yoda.
But for pity sake, I suppose it's ok to allow Yoda some room for not knowing everything since he has let a Dark Lord with very negative intentions cloud his council. Nice goin Yoda! Shame.
Aaahh...I see Isurus is out to get Yoda again...
Well, I completely agree that Yoda isn't all-powerful, and I don't believe I've ever claimed he was. It seems a little bit strange to me to pin this new piece of info, very interesting in itself, to the earlier discussion about the nature of the Force. Personally, I argued there that the path of the light is the true way of the Force. It would be impossible to repeat that entire discussion, but I don't see how this new piece contradicts anything I've ever said.
I'm not really sure where you want to go with this...
Anyway, Lucas has stated for years that the issue of how Obi-Wan and Yoda disappeared and retained their identity in the Force will be adressed in the PT. So now he's starting to reveal things, and it seems to be connected to Anakin; it's Anakin's pain and rage that brings the voice of his former mentor back from the dead, and it's the first time this is known to have happened.
What Isurus is sort of scratching the surface of, is a very interesting discussion; what brings Qui-Gon's voice back from the dead? Yoda is disturbed to hear it (yes, the book states that both Yoda and Anakin hears the voice), and he has no doubt that it is Qui-Gon he hears. The novel states that one of the most troubling things for Yoda is that this unheard of "voice of the dead" debutes as the voice of the very Jedi who discovered Anakin - the Chosen One. The sensation of Jinn speaking from beyond the grave could have its root in Anakin's exceptional powers, rather than in Jinn's...
Lucas is starting to reveal something disturbing here...
Welcome to the thread! Love your icon!
I agree 100% with you. The Lucas quote is probably best understood the way you describe - that the use of the dark side brings imbalance to the Force. The dark side IS the use of the dark side, imo. The Force is simply the Force, and the user determines whether the Force is used or abused - the light side or the dark side. So the dark side of the Force is not a thing or an energy field or something like that - it's the abuse of the Force. Thus what Lucas means is that Sidious using the Force for evil clouds the vision of the Jedi and brings imbalance to the Force. When Luke redeems Anakin and Anakin destroys Palpatine, the spell of the dark side is broken and balance is restored, and Anakin has finally and painfully fullfilled his destiny as the Chosen One.
Your last question is very good. Meditate on this, I will.
Welcome, Whoop (as I shall call you for short, if you don't mind ). We are always happy to have a new face in here. And welcome back, Isurus, long time no see indeed.
To business then.
Whoop, I agree with you. The Dark Side itself is not the cause of the imbalance. The nature of the Force reflects the nature of the universe, with Dark and Light in perfect ballance. I would even go so far as to say that simply using the Dark Side does not cause imbalance. At least, using it in the normal sense, the sense of using the Force selfishly for personal power. I belive that the imbalance comes from the way that the Sith use the Dark Side. I have read that the Sith use the Dark Side in such a way that it comes back and feeds and strengthens itself in an endless, destructive cycle.
When the Force is drawn on by a Force sensitive individual who feels fear and anger, the Dark Side is what is drawn on. The purity of the Force is filtered, if you will, through the person, and changed depending on how they use it. But all living beings are present within the Force, right? The Force is everywhere, flowing through us all. So the deliberate causing of pain, fear and anger will taint the Force, making the Dark Side physically stronger, therefore strengthening the Dark Side user. I belive that it was THIS that caused the original imbalance. This idea is supported by the statements in AOTC of the Dark Side becoming stonger and clouding everything, and the Jedi''s ability to use the Force becoming diminished.
"Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong."
Yoda is a very powerful Jedi, but he is not all-powerful. He, like the rest of the council has grown complacent, and now has been caught on the back foot by the machinations of the Sith. He is, like the rest of the Jedi, finding his ability to use the Force diminished. And now, he's heard something he once belived impossible: a Jedi keeping his identity from beyond the grave. I think he's having to rethink a lot of his fundamental assumptions about what is going on. That is what takes us from Episode 2 Yoda to Episode 5 Yoda.
BigBossNass, I think I briefly posted about one line I find very interesting in AotC. And that was when Darth Tyranus tells Sidious that the Force is with them. And as I stated in that post, that line doesn't mean much until you hear Vader tell Tarkin that Obi-Wan is on board the Death Star and that the Force is with him. Vader is clearly admitting that the Force is not with himself, at this point. The Force is behind Obi-Wan. Now, I dont know how or why the Force can be persuaded or can choose to support one group or the other, but clearly Vader and Tyranus could discern the Forces support one way or the other. The line intrigues me greatly because I've always maintained that the Force will balance the system one way or another. If, say, the Council's "goodness" is causing an imbalance in the galaxy, the Force would naturally support the Sith. The opposite holds true too! If, at some time, the Sith abuse their powers and cause an imbalance to the galaxy, the Force will support the Jedi. Clearly in AotC, and possibly for a long time before that, the Force is with the Sith. By the time of ANH, the Force is with the Jedi. And, of course, it's more intricate than that. Maybe the Force can be behind one or another person at some times. All we know is that in AotC, the Force is with Sidious and Tyranus..and not with the Jedi.
What this all comes down to, in my mind, is what do we consider balance, imbalance and how does doing the "good" thing, the "bad" thing, and the "right" thing maintain balance or create imbalance. Lets say the light side is balance and the dark side is imbalance. That doesn't neccessarily mean that doing the "good" thing creates balance nor doing the "bad" thing creates imbalance. But, I prefer to think doing the "right" thing is what supports a balanced system. Sometimes the right thing might be considered good or bad, depending on what the situation is. Ok, so I've probably said that before a few times, but I really do think that's the crux of the matter.
It's an interesting point, Isurus. Though we have to consider another posibility. Throughout the saga, the phrase "may the Force be with you" is used to mean "good luck." Dooku's saying that the Force is with them could simply be nothing deeper than saying that everything went perfectly to plan. It's kind of like saying "thank god it worked."
Vader's saying this about Obi-Wan doesn't quite work like this. It could be that he means that Obi-Wan has an inherant advantage over the security forces on the Death Star, as proved by his ability to evade them so well. The Force is his ally, and it lends him the ability to acheive his goals. Obi-Wan is there, and the Force is with him. Vader is able to track him down, because he has the same abilities.
I know I'm being pedantic here. The question is: can the Force 'favor' one side or the other. Evidence suggests that it can. We, of course, have the very contentious "balance of the Force" issue. Now, I don't subscribe to the simplistic view that the Dark Side equals imbalance. The Force in its natural state exists in balance, in harmony. Dark and Light, together. It would take something massive and cataclysmic to throw that out, right? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Rather than a huge event, we have small things building up and up and up. I still maintain that it is HOW the Sith use the Dark Side rather than the fact that they use it at all that is the source of the problem. As I said in my previous post, they strengthen and give back to the Dark side, pysically making it stronger. Now, the Jedi wiped out the Sith, or thought they did, but the imbalance that built up over the centuries still remained. And it wasn't helped by the Jedi becoming the all-powerful dominating force (no pun intended) that they are today. The slate had to be wiped clean before it could be fixed, as I have said before. This was the chosen one's job. His destiny.
I am personally inclined towards the "good luck" interpretation of the lines you mentioned, Isurus, but it is an interesting question. Yoda's admissions that the Dark side is growing stronger and the Jedi are losing the ability to use the Force do seem to sugest that Dooku was stating a direct fact, rather than using a figure of speech. Unfortunately, we probably won't know until Episode 3.
I understand that the lines about the Force "being with" one or the other intrigues you, as it really does seem to support your earlier theories about light and dark in equal balance. But I still don't agree.
My main problem with this theory is that one of the premises is this; the Republic is corrupt and the Jedi Council is complacent - thus the Force supports the destruction of the Jedi and the Republic, and the creation of a tyranny that destroys billions of lives and species and even entire planets. I admit that I find it very hard to accept this.
As I've stated numerous times - I believe that the Force is a neutral energy field created by all living things, which can be manipulated for good or evil. The Jedi choose good and the Sith choose evil, being defined as the violent oppression of others to gain personal power and wealth. The fact that the Jedi fail in their quest by becoming complacent and too loyal to a corrupt government does NOT justify the unbelievable crimes of the Sith. There is no way I can accept that the Force's way of setting the Jedi straight is by helping the Sith to literally wipe out half the galaxy.
The evil of the Sith can never be excused by the failures of the Jedi.
I think I agree with BigBossNass that the phrase "The Force is with us" is just a way of saying "we're doing well" or "we are in luck". Obviously Vader would find this a fitting description of Kenobi's infiltration of the Death Star.
But I must disagree with Nass (think that's the first time, actually... ) about how the way the Sith use the dark side creates imbalance. I believe that it starts with the Force, which is simply the Force. The way it is used is what defines it as dark or light. Using the Force for knowledge and defense and the good of all beings = light. Using the Force for attack and aggression = dark. The Force isn't light or dark, imo. But it is used or abused, which creates light and dark. That's why I tend to agree with Lucas that the dark side IS imbalance - because it is all down to intentions. Using the Force for good keeps the balance, but once the evil ways of the Sith become more dominant (ie using the Force for aggression, oppression and attack) - that creates imbalance.
Anyway, good to have Isurus back!
Hmmm, I'm going to show what an incredibly open-minded fella I am and argue with myself here ---
The concept of the will of the Force is obviously something that completely crushes my view of the Force as a neutral energy field, isn't it? But I'll reserve my judgment for a bit, as this has so far only been refered to by Qui-Gon Jinn.
(Adali-Kiri looks around and tries to find someone to debate with)
Oh my, you disagree with me on something, Adali! lol
You do make a good point. I just find that there seems to be a real distinction between "Sith" and "Dark Jedi" or "Dark Side Adepts." The distinction must come from HOW they use the Dark Side. At no point in any of the movies, or in EU material that I am aware of, does it specificaly say how, where or when the imbalace began, but it is implied that it was caused by the rise of the Sith. Anakin's final destruction of the Sith ended it and restored the ballance. EU material has the intial rise of the Sith happening several millenia after the Jedi Knights came into being. During that time, there must have been Jedi who fell to the Dark Side, as we have previously discussed. So it seems to me that when the Sith first rose and the First Sith Empire came into being, that is when the imbalace first showed. I suppose it is arguable that the imbalance was already there, it just didn't show itself until the Dark Side users had much greater numbers.
As I said earlier, we just won't know until we have more information on the Sith. I know a lot of people really dislike EU stuff, so I am not putting a big emphasis on it. But we need more information on what is happening at the time of AOTC, and what has happened in the past.
Also, Adali raises an interesting issue that we have not discussed very much here. The issue of the Will of the Force, of destiny. It is a very important thread running through the whole saga. Most esspecially, Anakin's destiny in relation to the prophecy. He was concieved by the Force to fullfil the role of restoring balance. This sugests the concept of "the will of the Force" has a basis in reality. It isn't sugested that the Force has a concious mind, but it is sugested that it has some kind of will, that it pushes people and events towards a goal, a destiny. It isn't so implausable. The Force can be used to see into the future, so the Force itself must extend beyond the current time frame. It exists in a certain state in the future, and it pushes events so that they will arive at that state. The question of course lies in how much it can push, and how ridgid the concept of Destiny is.
Many times in the saga, we see people given the oportunity to choose their destiny. Though perhaps they only think they are choosing. But Yoda himself says that the future is always in motion, so it would seem that there is some scope for choice. Thoughts, people?
Great points, Nass!
Now that I ponder it, I tend to think that the concept of the Force having a kind of will has actually been there since the very first film. When Luke asks Obi-Wan if the Force controls your actions, the old man confirms it by saying "Partially, but it also obeys your command". That is probably confirmation about the will of the Force.
Added to that; the concept of the Prophecy also originates from the very beginning of Lucas' work. The first drafts of the screenplay were called something like - From the Journal of the Whills: The Adventures of Luke Starkiller - The Star Wars. And these scripts opened with the Prophecy itself saying that "in the time of greatest need there shall be born a saviour, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns".
There's nothing there about bringing balance to the Force, but at least it seems that Lucas has had the concept of the will of the Force and the conscious creation of a saviour in mind since the very beginning. It is only now that he's actually playing it out on the screen.
Dam, this is pretty exciting stuff!
I am currently making my way through the AotC book. I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm not far into it, yet, but I did come to a part where Yoda and Mace are talking.
Mace says "The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing."
To which Yoda says "And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future, only by probing the dark side can we see."
Folks, clearly the Force is with the dark side, at this point. What this kind of passage says to me is that a while ago, those who used the light side, such as the Council or Yoda or Mace, could see the future fairly clear. At that time, you could say the Force was the light-side users. At this point in time, the Force is allowing the dark side users to forsee the future much easier than the lightsiders. We know, by Episode 4, that Vader admits the Force is with Obi-Wan. That means the Force has shifted again, to allowing lightside users ability to see the future. We see further proof in Episode 5 when Yoda teachs Luke how to clear his mind...to see past and future events, and Luke sees the City in the clouds, as does Yoda. The Force is with them.
As I said in that post a few weeks ago, it makes no sense for the DArk Lord of the Sith, a man in public eye, and most of yours, to be selfish and misleading and deceptive to admit in Episode 4 that the Force is with a Jedi! Unless he can truly sense which way the Force is leaning, and moreso, is honest enough to admit which way that is. It's not just a trite comment wishing someone a good day. Thats a Dark Lord admitting something he does not wish to admit. You know it to be true. The Force will bring balance to the system. And, if neccessary, it will assist one side or the other, at times, to do so. The will of the Force is to maintain Balance! If Lives must be lost or plants must die or beings created or whatnot, it will be so!
One day, you all will know the true meaning of the Force. <<I just had to say that >>
p.s. upon reading a bit more of AotC, it's become clear to me that one of things I have suspected is becoming true. Yoda and Mace share a look with each other, in TPM for example, where it seems they feel they're above others. What appears to be a snobbish gesture isn't so, at all. They're looking at each other contemplating the possibility that they're the only two Jedi who know what it is to be one with the Force. Most so called Jedi on the Council have not or maybe can not attain that level of one-ness. How's that for a Dark Lords tip of the helmet to Yoda and Mace, eh Adali?
I had to pick myself up off the floor, Isurus!
There's not much I can say about your last post. Indeed you seem to be right on this issue. Still, saying that the Force 'being with' someone doesn't necessarily have any significance. As Nass pointed out - they say 'May the Force be with you' all the time in this galaxy, which is clearly a 'good luck'. I don't think there's much more to it than that, even if the dark side does cloud the Jedi's vision of the future.
Apart from that - Isurus does seem to be right about this.
(Adali-Kiri sinks into a depression upon losing the debate...)
There there, Adali.
Ok, let's think about this. Going by that line, Isurus, I think you are right. The imbalance is growing, tipping even furthur towards the dark side. And this is having the effect of inhibiting the Jedi's powers. I don't think we can argue about that.
But I'm not certain about the balance tipping back towards the light side in 4. Yes, Vader says that the Force is with Obi-Wan, but it seems to me that this can't literally be the case. The only person who can restore balance is Anakin, and he hasn't done it yet. So how can it have tipped from dark to light? What may be happening is that in AOTC, the fact that the dark side is growing is what makes it so hard to see. The dark side has been weak to the point of almost non existance for a millenium, and now it is growing stronger than ever. The Jedi of this time are not used to it. They've never had to deal with it before, so they start panicking when it happens. By episode 4, it has stabilised. The dark side dominates, but it isn't growing. And whether or not Obi-Wan can use the Force as well as he might have been able to in better times, he still can use it, giving him an inherant advantage over the Death Star's troops. As I said before, Vader is saying that not only is Obi-Wan a crafty devil, but the Force is with him as well, meaning he has powers beyond all the troops sent to find him. Obi-Wan is hideiously outnumbered, and still makes it through, up until the final encounter with someone fighting him on his own terms. The statement "the Force is with him" just makes more sense if it is describing the advantage Obi-Wan has. And anyway, why would Vader be expressing his concerns over the balance of the Force to Tarkin, who, while not as unbelieving as some of his subordinates, is of the opinion that the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. He does not appear to know anything about the issues of the balance, and whether dark or light is stronger.
Maybe we haven't lost yet, Adali.
Great thread guys, a little over the top at some points but good points overall.
Most have been said however.
ok. and now for the imbalance
The jedi have lost their purity and clear mind and that is why the dark side has clouded everything. Palpy uses everyone, but had the jedi been more attuned or should I say not bounded so much to the jedi code he wouldn't stand a chance. So the cannot foresee, or even see, this brings suspicion, fear.. and the dark side grows stronger.. and as it grows stronger the less the jedi can do. There is a certain climax of doubts.. Nobody is optimistic.. They see it coming and thet they don't admit it. Only yoda and in the end.
Now as for the balance.. Some have said Qui Gon is closer to the balance, I disagree he thinks he is, but he leaves too many thing to the will of the force as he says.. Good is the will of the force, but you also have to do something as well to gain your goals. He doesn't, and when he does i think he does it more to oppose the narrow-minded council rather because he is in course for balance.
And I want to say something about the which is stronger dark or light side.
Neither. Balance is stronger but it can only achieved by a chosen one. So it is good for the common good to choose the light side because dark side brings all the bad. And also something else.. Dark side is easier.. So in the long run Light side can defeat the dark side, because the longer the run the stronger you get. My point being, in the very long run.. someone who has been on both sides can overcome. Like anakin. So it isn't just a matter of sides, its a matter of people as well.
I dont consider this a debate about who's right or wrong. More a chance to express our thoughts on the matter and find, and probably surprisingly to lightsiders and darksiders, that we're all not far off from thinking the same thing. But, I'll take that a definate compliment, Adali Thanks.
Another line which hints that the Force can be influenced is when Mr Kenobi says to Vader "if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Now, we all know that his physical form, if struck down, would have little to no effect in the physical realm. But is Kenobi, here, hinting that due to some knowledge of maintaining his likeness after his body dies can turn the tides a bit? Maybe, from a distance, persuading the Force to be with Luke more than normal?
And about which side is stronger. I've always thought a forceweilder who has seen things from both sides will fair better than someone who has gone only down one path or another. And in AotC we see the problem which arises from not dabbing into the dark side. Yoda says, basically, that since the Force is allowing darksiders to see the future clearly, to see the future for themselves, they'd have to dabble into dark territory. <<thats from the book, by the way, and I'm imagining it'll be Mace who attempts that path>>
So, what that says to me is that a forceweilder who can access both light and dark sides can tap into the Force at almost any time. But, I thought of a third option, too. A time when the Force doesn't allow dark or light siders this priviledge.
But still, my query mainly is what people consider balance to be. If you are a lightsider and that means you're balanced <<which isn't how neccessarily define it..but it's growing on me hehe>> what does that mean to you?
Just a quick post today, because I don't have time for a long one.
Isurus, I know it's not a competition. Adali and I are just joking.
And yes, another thing we haven't dealt with yet is the infamous vanishing Jedi phenomenon. Before TPM, we took it for granted that it went with the territory for a Jedi, but now we don't know what the deal is. And unfortunately, we won't know until 2005. It would see to be that it is a special skill, perhaps taught to Obi-Wan by Yoda, and it requires concentration, and readiness. That is why Obi-Wan prepeares himself before Vader can hit him. Perhaps Qui-Gon did know how to do it, but didn't get a chance because his death was sudden. The same goes for all the Jedi killed in the arena. The bottom line is: we don't know. But it will be answered in Ep3, we have George's word on it.
Yeah, we're kidding, Isurus.
But that was a compliment. I think it's only fair to admit one's mistakes when one participates in such a long and wonderful debate, and you sure seem to be right about this. So far...hehehe.
I think I'm sticking to my initial belief of what balance is, as I've argued earlier in this thread. I believe balance of the Force is the purity of light and purity of purpose. As long as the Force-wielders use the Force only for knowledge and defense and the serving of the greater good, there is balance. When someone starts abusing the Force to dominate others and gain wealth and power (=the dark side), that brings imbalance. This is what the Sith do, and that's why the Force is getting increasingly unbalanced as Palpatine rises to greater and greater power. I don't think the complacency of the Jedi affects this in any other way than in giving the Sith an easier way to power. The Jedi aren't doing their job, but it is still the dark side that causes the imbalance. Not the failure of the Jedi, but the incredible evil of Palpatine. I personally think this ties in quite well with Lucas' own comments on the issue.
And perhaps that imbalance is needed, in order for things to get restored.
Hmm, I think we may be approaching a compromise of sorts here, buddy!
In the book (AOTC) it is Yoda who goes into meditation to probe the dark side and see what lies beneath the surface of the turmoil the Jedi are facing. That is what he is doing when Anakin's mother dies and Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raider tribe. Mace does not do this. I think Mace tells Obi-Wan that only the strongest Jedi can do this without causing severe problems. Thus Yoda does the work.
It is during this session of dark side probing (which Yoda can do for days without rest or food, according to Mace) that Yoda feels Anakin's pain and hears the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn from beyond the grave. This troubles Yoda greatly and he doesn't even tell Windu. Something impossible is happening and it ties in with Anakin...
Like Nass said ... another 3 years ...
i want to adress a comment from earlier where it was said that why would palaptine not have gotten rid of the chosen one who might be a threat unless he had some use for him. Clearly palpatine intends to recruit anakin as an apprentice. Here are my reasons for believing this. As we see in aotc anakin says to palpatine "thanks to your guidance ....", this indicates that palpatine has been guiding anakin. Then when dooku figts obi wan and cuts him down he tries to finish him of but anakin interjects, but then when he cuts anakin down he doesnt then swing for his head or try to finish him off instead he force pushes him away to obi wans position. So clearly dooku did not intend to kill anakin, just defeat him so that he could escape. I believe the reason for this lies in that lord sidious told dooku to make sure anakin survives. Then although this one can be debated, in the geonosian arena after the jedi have been beaten into a circle and appear to be losing, dooku stops the troops and stalls just long enough for the clones to arrive. Maybe just one big coincidence that the clones arrived in the nik of time but maybe he knew when the clones would arrive and just needed to stall so that anakin wouldnt have to be shot dead. Its a stretch but possible. anyways i know ive been out for a while but i thought this thread was dead.
And it seems it was...
I'm longing for a continuing debate, guys.
Isurus, where are you...?
*I'm just kinda jumping in here guys, hope you don't mind. I just like to express what's on my mind. Great thread by the way."
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Know thy enemy. That's as basic as anything warfare. I believe to win in any battle, you must win in your mind, AND in your opponents. So while I believe the lightside of the force to be the stronger, it is definately a good idea to know what you are up against. I think Yoda best shows this in AotC. Dooku seemingly thinking he can best his former master because of his new found darkside powers, Yoda doesn't just deflect his apprentice's force lightning, but throws it back at him. Using your opponents offenses against him is the sign of true mastery of whatever style of combat, in this instance the force. Yoda also proved to be the victor in hand to hand combat with a lightsaber. (CAN NOT WAIT FOR THE DVD TO COME OUT.)
But back to what I said earlier, know thy enemy. Dooku knows his new enemy all to well. Exactly why is so easily triumphant against Obi-wan, and then Anakin.
Keep your friends close.
Qui-gon Jinn, apprentice to Count Dooku. The conversation between Count Dooku and Obi-wan intrigued me the most when watching episode II. Count Dooku can be seen giving "what looks" like an honest regret towards losing Qui-gon Jinn and wishing he were still here to help him. Obi-wan quickly brushes this off replying that Qui-gon would never join Dooku. BUT even quicker does Dooku brush this off, "Don't be so sure." So here's the real question. Who was right?? This parralells the OT cliffhanger ending in ESB, was Darth Vader really Luke's father?? In that instance it was so. Would Qui-gon Jinn have fought along side Dooku?? An interesting tidbit to add fuel to fire. A while back the official site had a poll question, 'Who made the initial order for the clones?' The obvious was there, Count Dooku, Darth Sidious, but one of the names struck me by surprise. Qui-gon Jinn. That's when it hit me, what if the Count was telling the truth? What if Qui-gon went under the dead jedi's alias Sifo-Dyas and made the order for the clones, In a sense taking one for the team AT THE TIME. If he were to be discovered, Dooku, and the allready mysterious Sidous would be blame free. Of course by the time of the events in AotC it matters little who made the order of the clones. The deed is done. And the aftermath is upon everyone.
I do think however that Qui-gon Jinn's role will expand in episode III. Probably not by the actor himself but by finding out where his true interests laid. Which brings me to a final question. Qui-gon's body did not disappear, BUT his voice reappears and is heard by Yoda. Because his body did not disappear does this mean that he cannont reappear in spector form? Obi-wan's whole physical matter vanishes as he dies, and he reappears as a spector. As with Yoda and Anakin.