the force (light and dark)

tabbafett ---

Welcome to the thread!

The Sifo-Dyas discussion is probably best reserved for other threads.

But your question about Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC is very interesting. It is indeed his voice that both Yoda and Anakin hear when Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raiders. It is not made clear in the film that they both can hear him, but the novel states it. The novel also explains that Yoda feels Anakin's pain while probing the dark side to look for answers to the many mysteries, and that he is greatly disturbed to hear what he clearly recognizes as Qui-Gon's voice from beyond the grave. In the book, Yoda thinks that this is impossible and he is so disturbed by it that he doesn't even tell Windu. The most troubling thing to Yoda is that this voice from the dead comes back in connection to Anakin, the Chosen One.

The movie doesn't make it clear, but the book pretty much states that the Jedi are not ones to disappear upon their deaths and retain their identity. Yoda has never heard of such a thing in his 800 years in the order. We can also pretty much tell from the movies (TPM and AOTC) that this is not something that happens. Jinn doesn't disappear and we haven't seen any Force ghosts or heard any voices from beyond. Until now.

In the OT, this seems to be a common occurence. Thus I think that the whole plot about this is about to be revealed, and it seems to be tied to Anakin. All we can do is wait for Episode III...

I personally think we will be seeing the first Force ghost in the next film. There was nothing in TPM, now we have a voice from beyond in AOTC, and in the OT it's a common thing. So I think Episode III will reveal the deal, and it might very well be Qui-Gon who comes back. That would seem fitting after hearing his voice. And I'd love to see Neeson as a Force ghost.

But the confusing thing here is that it seems AOTC has stated that coming back from the dead is not connected to disappearing upon death, because Qui-Gon clearly doesn't go away. Lucas must have a point here, because the funeral sequence is TPM seems to be constructed partially to emphasize the fact that Jinn doesn't disappear.

I'm as puzzled as Yoda, I think...

 

Welcome to the fray, Tabbafett. Good to have you here?

Yes, I agree with Adali. The Sifo-Dyas question is probably better suited for the enormous number of other threads about him.

I do agree with your comment about Yoda's mastery, though. We now know that he is indeed a great warrior. Just for the record, I can't wait for the DVD either.

And yes, we haven't discussed Qui-Gon's connection to Dooku very much yet. As you might have seen reading through the rest of the thread, Qui-Gon is a popular source of debate here. And before the movie came out, we speculated that perhaps Dooku was not a bad guy at all, but was genuine about his request to Obi-Wan for help against the Sith. Now that the movie's out, we can pretty much scratch that theory, which is unfortunate, because it would have made things a lot more interesting. But anyway. It would appear that Qui-Gon's deffiance came from his master. Dooku left the order shortly after his Padawan's death, citing dissatisfaction with the Council and the Sennate. The same dissatisfaction that Qui-Gon would appear to have felt, though his was perhaps less pronounced, and he was not particularly vocal about it, prefering to simply resort to his own methods rather than obey the council's directives. And Qui-Gon does seem to have respect for the council and their wisdom, even though he does not seem to agree with many of their decisions. Perhaps this is where he differed from Dooku. The problem is that we don't know enough about the Count. Why did he leave? Was it Qui-Gon's death and how the Council handled it? Did he perhaps go looking for the Sith himself, searching for revenge? Did Sidious turn him to the Dark Side through that? Or perhaps he was working for Sidious before he left, and it was he who erased Kamino from the databanks. But we don't know enough about his past ot guess his motives, and we don't know very much about what he was doing post-TPM/pre-AOTC, except for a few tidbits from Holonet News and the Visual Dictionary about the Seperatist movement. Obviously in the gap he turned ot the Dark Side, but that's all we know. Sigh. So much goes unanswered.

On the subject of unanswered questions, the Vanishing. There are two possibilities that I see. 1) It's an ability that all Jedi have, but it takes preparation. All the Jedi we've seen die in the prequels have been killed suddenly and violently. The Jedi in the arena, and Qui-Gon. Now, Qui-Gon didn't die imediately, but perhaps he was too weak to summon the endergy to vanish. 2) It's a special ability, known only to Yoda and Obi-Wan by the time of the OT, but known by no one in the PT, not even Yoda (as evidenced by the novel.)

2 is far more likely, since Yoda in the novel seems to know nothing about Jedi ghosts. So we'll work with that theroy. And I agree with Adali, it seems to be somehow related to Anakin. Another question is: does a Jedi have to vanish to come back as a ghost? Because we never see Qui-Gon, only hear him (and it doesn't sound like Liam Neeson even recorded the dialogue, because the shout of "Anakin!" sounds identical to when he tells him to duck Maul's speeder in TPM). Perhaps to apprear as a full ghost, capable of speech and conversation, a Jedi must vanish. Perhaps all we have of Qui-Gon is some kind of echo, not like Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin, the only ghosts we've seen to date. So will we see a ghost in Ep3? I hope so. And I want the answer to this question, too. Because we used to think that all Jedi vanished, that it came with the territory. But TPM threw that on its ear.

Anyway, I'm glad this thread's back up, I missed it. And Issurus, where are you? Come, friend, we need your opinions on these matters as well!

 

Liam Neeson did record dialogue for AOTC in New York. But according to himself (I'm forgetting where I read the interview...think it was here on TFN) they ended up using dialogue from TPM, because the new recordings didn't technically make it. Something happened. Anyway, it IS Liam's voice and they just lowered it digitally for the "NOOOOO!" part.

And I agree - where is Isurus? This thread isn't the same without him...

 

"Sigh. So much goes unanswered. "

Cliffhangers, you gotta love 'em.

So George Lucas has said that the whole issue on disappearing and the force will be identifed with Obi-wan's quote, "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." So it would appear that Obi-wan obviously knows of the secret to vanish and Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker does not. And from the events in Return of the Jedi we know that Yoda also knows of the secret. But also during the Return of the Jedi Vader vanishes. I heard that he did not, but george confirmed that it was just the suit Luke was burning, I don't know if anyone has a source for that or not but i remember hearing it. So We've got Yoda and Obi-wan who know of the vanish, and I think we can presume that they discover this out during the events of episode III. But what goes unanswered is how Qui-gon was able to project his voice from the dead, and who "if" anyone taught it to him? If he was taught, then I think it would likely be Count Dooku, but if Count Dooku knew of the secret then surely he would have reappeared in the OT, right? Well maybe he did, someone brought this up, not sure if it was in this thread or another, but what if the dark cave on degobah is haunted by the great Count Dooku. Wasn't it said at one time that Yoda chased a sith lord their ultimatley defeating the dark warrior but his spirit remained in the hollowed tree/cave. Just something for thought. So I guess my question out of this whole non-sense is where Qui-gon gained the ability to reappear? And does or will he reveal himself to Yoda and Obi-wan teaching them the ways of his secret? I don't know, thats why I'm sharing my ideas with you all here, to unravel the mysteries of the force.

Yay!

 

You're 100% right about one thing; Qui-Gon is the first Jedi (at least to Yoda's knowledge) to speak from beyond the grave. And in the OT, both Yoda and Kenobi are able to do this and ALSO to appear in ghostly form. It seems inevitable that this will be tied to Anakin and Qui-Gon. But that's all I'm certain of at this point. It's great to still have secrets waiting to be revealed for us, isn't it?

 

You guys should check out the "Qui-gon was on to something." thread. Ingenious.

 

Hmmm. I just read that thread, Tabbafett. Interesting. I think we should discuss the difference between the Living Force and the Unifying Force, because I was thinking about it the other day.

What we have with these two views is exactly that: 2 ways of looking at and using the Force. The Unifying Force is kind of like the Big Picture. This is the view that the council takes. It involves thought, meditation, and looking to the future to try and see what will happen. It is less impulsive, more planned. The council never take action without debating and considering the concequences.

The Living Force is all about the here and now. Being mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment. Trusting your instincts and letting them guide you. Handing yourself completely over to the will of the Force. This is Qui-Gon's view. He is more impulsive, prefering to listen to his instincts and what he percieves to be the will of the Force.

Because the Living Force view is much more action-reaction, it is sometimes right at the point, right at the boundry between Dark and Light. It becomes much easier to slip off. We see in AOTC that Anakin is very impulsive. He doesn't consider the future, or the concequences, he does what he feels is right at the time. And we see where that is leading him. Trusting your instincts in this way is fine, but his out of control emotions are leading him towards the Dark side. Had Qui-Gon been around to teach him, he might have been able to find the balance. Because at this time, Obi-Wan seems to be much closer to the Unifying Force. He is not the maverick that his master was, and he is well liked by the council. He thinks and looks ahead. The perfect example of this is when Anakin wants to stop the pursuit of Dooku and go back for Padme, and then later on does not wait for Obi-Wan when rushing in to fight the count. Obi-Wan was cautious and careful, looking ahead and planning his actions. This will make him an ideal General during the wars. Anakin was impulsive, letting his emotions and protective (and later on, agressive) instincts cloud his judgement. This philosophical difference is the heart of Anakin's disagreement with Obi-Wan, why he accuses his master of "holding him back."

What is interesting is that in ANH, Obi-Wan is sounding muh more like Qui-Gon. At every oportunity he tells Luke to trust his feelings, and let the Force guide him. Indeed, Obi-Wan becomes one with the Force and guides Luke in that way. Does Obi-Wan realise that Qui-Gon;s view was better? Or is it just that in the reality of the conflict he found that acting on pure insinct would serve Luke better? This is something I would like to see explained.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for today. May the Force (Living or Unifying, I don't mind ) be with you all.

 

Well...I must admit that this unifying/living duality is a thing I haven't given much thought, and for some reason it doesn't interest me too much. But BigBossNass brings up a series of good points, as usual. (Gush, gush ).

The one thing I'd like to stress is that, as much as I loved the Qui-Gon Jinn character, I feel it is a bit unfair to give him credit for being more in tune with the Force than Yoda or Obi-Wan. After all, it was Kenobi who sensed that something was brewing on the horizon, while Jinn didn't sense anything. Although he does sense the TF's great fear of something unknown a few minutes later, but that is more in the here and now. Anyway, Kenobi was right. And it was Yoda who insisted that it was a mistake to train Anakin. And he was right.

But I am of course missing a bit of the bigger picture, without having seen Episode III. If it was "necessary" to wipe out the Jedi Order in order to bring the Force back in balance, then surely Anakin HAD to be trained. But I am still not all that convinced that this had to happen...

 

I am!! convinced, that is..
Really!

 

You have a good point, Adali, about how some people raise Qui-Gon up above the rest of them.

Qui-Gon is more in tune with the Force from a certain point of view. It is true in that he does let his actions be much more closely guided by the will of the Force. But this devotion to the living Force does not make someone necesarily more in tune. They are very much in tune with the Force of the moment, but they do not look beyond the present.

The Jedi council have been accused (often by me )of complacency, of far to rigid compliance with proceedure and ritual. And this is true, but I feel like offering them some defence at this point. They wouldn't be masters of the entire order if they weren't very much in tune with the Force. But on the whole, they look at the bigger picture. Their disagreement with Qui-Gon comes from their concerns that the boy's future is shadowed, and that there are dark things comming that even they do not see.

Qui-Gon is extremely arogant. At no point does he consider the possibility that he might be wrong about Anakin. He was right about him being the Chosen One, but he takes him away from his mother, he defies the council about his training, he essentially blows off Obi-Wan so he can take Anakin as his padawan. If he had stopped and thought about it, listened to what the council and even his own aprentice had to say, he might have realised that the boy was dangerous.

I think it is wrong to compare Qui-Gon and the council, and argue that one is somehow better or more in tune with the Force than the other. As I said in my last post, their philosophies are very different. Qui-Gon is a very capable Jedi, but he is at times blinded by his seeming inability to look at the bigger picture. The Jedi council are also wise and great Jedi, but they are likewise weakened by their rigid adherance to the code, and to ritual. For all their looking, they are blind to what is really happening to the Republic.

And still we have no Issurus. Where can he be?

 

In Isurus' absence - I agree!

You have a very good point about how Jinn and the Council all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Good grief, even Jedi are human! Well, not all of them...

 

Bigbossnass-

Great post as usual. I agree with the your qui-gon vs. council ideas and how you can't judge one to be better than the other because both had their great strength's, and I do believe that it was Qui-gon who was on the right track to truly becoming one with the force. And by 'truly' I of course mean keeping one's identity after death. I guess I'm thinking Obi-wan or Yoda somehow reaches Qui-gon or hears him again, or maybe Yoda has the puzzle solved by the time of episode III, but what I mean is that they take this idea of keeping your identity and perfect it; giving them the ability to completely vanish their physical matter and reappear in spector form at any given place, any given time. All in all, pretty neat stuff. So to me it seems that Qui-gon was indeed "on to something." He might not have even known about it until Darth Maul and himself were given a slight break by the generator walls in TPM, and he sat and meditated, gathered his thoughts, whatever it was, but he could have been putting together some final pieces there before he was slain. It seems now that only time will tell.

I'm glad to see this thread back up here again.

 

I'm glad to see this thread back up here as well. I've always enjoyed the discussion here. I wonder if Darth Kaoken, the one who started this, will ever grace us with his presence again?

Unfortunately, Tabafett, we can speculate all we want on this subject, but it will be pretty futile until Episde 3 hits and we finally get our answer to the last great mystery of the saga. Myself, I think that Qui-Gon retaining his identity was probably unexpected and unplanned. We've already discussed how Qui-Gon worries more about the moment, and I'm not certain I can imagine him spending lots of time trying to nut out how to survive beyond death, something that all the Jedi seem to belive is impossible. When he was separated from Maul, he wasn't trying to plan for that eventuality, he was trying to calm himself and concentrate on the moment, as he had told Obi-Wan to do. To hone his instincts for the continuing battle. That is how Qui-Gon fights, and how he operates at all times.

And just an interesting point, Qui-Gon has to be the most discussed Jedi on this thread. Even Yoda and Anakin together haven't inspired as much debate as Master Jinn.

 

Hello and sorry for the long absence. I am just finishing up moving residence and I'm sending this from work, so thats part of the reason why I haven't posted. This post will be short but I hope to read back through a few pages and then will post more later. But in the meantime... an aside.

I'm not surprised to see that Master Jinn's name seems to be cropping up more and more. I believe him to very close to what I'd consider a balanced force user...ie: a Jedi or Sith who is one with the Force. But since this will be a short post, I'd like to point out something we all know or are finally seeing. And that is that Master Lucas really has something deep going here. I doubt but really wish others could see the intricate things beneath the surface. I'm sure most just saw Qui-Gon Jinn as a lead in to Obi-Wan. But, as is becoming apparent in this thread, Qui-Gon, and most likely every dang character in these movies, is much important in how things are.

Ciau for now!

Isurus

 

Good point, Isurus, and it's great to have you back. I know how much of a Qui-Gon suporter you are, so I'm sure you'll be weighing into this discussion with gusto.

I agree that it's great to see GL doing this. Because as I said above, this is the last great mystery of the saga. We have questions like what happens to the Republic and how does Anakin turn, but we pretty much know the answers to them. But the vanishing/ghost question remains unsolved. I will be very very interested to see what George does with it.

Anyway, good luck with moving in, and again, welcome back. You may notice that Adali and I have been mourning your absence. We both miss our impassioned debates.

 

So, one thought that I had...

I agree in saying that Qui-Gon did not "figure it out." In fact, I am not so sure that any of the ghost figure it out from a logical standpoint. I wonder if this has to do with the will of the force that Qui-Gon talks about. Perhaps thier sticking around has to do with the force staying in balance. Sort of like the theory of ghosts who stick around due to unfinished business.

To explain Ben's line in ANH, perhaps he understood and saw the effect without necessarily showing the cause (which would be in line with how GL tells the story). He knew that due to his tie in events, specifically Anakin, he would be sticking around.

The other thought is whether this has to do with Anikin's line of "even stop people from dying." Could it be that Anakin's strength somehow can pull at the spirits of those close to him and keep them from peace?

thoughts?

 

you guys are weird. do you actually think the force is real?

 

No, we're having an in depth philosophical discussion about things we observe in the movies. It's not different to a lot of the threads here, apart from the fact that it's a lot, shall we say, deeper than "Who would win, Darth Maul or Yoda?" You can call us weird if you want. I've been called worse. But we're enjoying our discussion, and if you don't have anything useful to add, why are you posting?

TenorAprentice, welcome. I agree with you that Qui-Gon probably did not make any concious choice to come back as a ghost. It is just something that happened. I don't think he was "on to something" as such. Obi-Wan in ANH seems to know something, though, which, if we belive GL, he learned from Yoda. I think you're right that he knew the effect, even if he wasn't sure of the cause. He took the risk that not only would his sacrifice allow the Falcon to escape, he would also be able to return and help Luke from beyond death. As I've said, I'll be fascinated to finally know the answer.

 

I'm a geek, no doubts there.

 

TenorAprentice --- welcome aboard!

I love your concept of how the retaining identity issue may be a good old ghost story twist - that they tag along after their death because they have unfinished business in the known realm. Kenobi certainly wasn't done in guiding Luke, and it would be so great if Qui-Gon has something important to do as well. Actually, in a sense he left a giant task unfinished - the training of Anakin. Brilliant thoughts, my friend!

Isurus --- Isurus!!! It IS you, it IS you!

Isurus; as you know, we don't agree on the concept of the Force and balance, so it's probably no surprise to you that I'll disagree somewhat with you on the subject of Qui-Gon being the "middle ground" between Jedi and Sith. Actually, I'm not sure if that is what you're saying, so I won't put words in your mouth.

Going by BigBossNass' theories on the Living vs the Unifying Force, Jinn is far from a balanced Jedi (as in balanced between these 2 "versions" of the Force), because he is exclusively concentrated on the Living Force. Thus, as Nass points out, he is actually rather "out of balance". I would dare to argue that the Council is more in balance according to this program. Sure, they are mostly concerning themselves with the Unifying Force. But the Council also seems open to the possibility that Qui-Gon may be right, or that Qui-Gon may have a point. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, is sternly refusing the other point of view - that he may be wrong, or inconsiderate. He doesn't listen to either the Council or his own apprentice.

I think Qui-Gon could use a little more humility. That might also have made it easier to get his way with the Council. I think they are very worried about his seeming lack of humility more than him championing personal projects. That's pure opinion on my part, of course.

However, I joyfully agree that Lucas has made Qui-Gon an interesting and important character beyond the events of TPM. With his voice appearing in AOTC, there is no doubt that this Jedi will be central to future events as well.

It's brilliant to have Isurus back!

 

Well, my standpoint about there being a balance point will never change. It's a simple pendulum scenario. The only point that I differ with most people is what started that pendulum to swing in the first place. Most would naturally assume that the Jedi who broke free to become the Sith started the pendulum to swing. But, as I've always said, if the Jedi were in balance and everything was right, then those number of initial Jedi, which broke away, would never have left the Order. Even Lucas says that those initial separatists wanted control of the Universe and thought Jedi should be the rulers. I see that as an excuse. Something other people would, personally **nudge nudge wink wink** see as the reason, but really it's just the surface of what went on.

Does anyone think the Jedi Order is in balance or "one" with the Force at the time of AotC? Not even Yoda does! In AotC, he points out, very frankly, that a number of Jedi, even more experienced Jedi, are confident and, from what I gather, "cocky" about their abilities. If the Jedi Order was at "one" with the Force, the Jedi would never seek to be more than what they preach. But, at the time of AotC, we see that Jedi do and are diregarding their teachings and are persuing a different path. Even if they're part of the Jedi Order, it's only on the surface. I see this as something which happened 1000, or so, years prior to AotC. A certain number of Jedi became confident, and such, and parted ways with the Order. And, again, I'll say, on the surface, it looks as if these Jedi which are separating are at fault. But thats not the truth. The reasons they're feeling confident and boasting their powers abroad is the pendulum swinging back. Hmm...lemme try another way to say it.

Lets realizie that a pendulum usually swings back and forth, in a similar fashion, more than just once. It usually goes forth, then back, then forth, then back, and so on, until whatever initial disrupting force has been worn out or depleted.

Now, from what was in the TPM book and from what Lord Lucas has said, we know the Sith came about 1000 or so years before. Lets call those times, all that time ago, the initial set of 'forth' and 'back' swing. Now 1000 years have passed and we're on the second set of 'forth' and 'back' swings. The Jedi, without any awareness or help from the Sith, became lazidazical. We clearly see this in TPM.

What we saw in TPM was a Jedi Council which seemed to be out of touch with reality. The blockade came about and the Senate sends Jedi to take care of the matter. The Jedi were so out-of-touch that they were taken off gaurd by the Nemoidians attempts. Sure, they resorted to holding their breath to survive, but thats different than coming to the meeting knowing something funny was going to happen. The Jedi are the ones who are supposed to be 'in touch' with whats going on, though. More than any other organization. The fact they were taken by surprise in TPM shows that they have lost touch. And why would that be? Because the only group who ever threatened them, the Sith, were supposedly wiped out 1000 years prior. They got lazy! But, as I said, this is a mirror of what initially started the pendulum swinging in the first place. The Jedi became lazy, and most likely 'cocky'/confident and a number of them, most likely former Council Memebers themselves, like Dooku, felt something was not right and they separated. I'll say it again. The reason they left/separated in the first place, was due to the Council either losing it's way or being too set in old tradition. The Universe was changing and the Council didn't roll with the changes. It become out of touch with its surroundings and that group separated as a RESULT of that. The Jedi, thinking they were doing the right thing by adhering to old ways to a point that they abided by their old ways and acheived their old 'goals' very easily...very lazilly in a manner of speaking, lost touch. The fact that the Sith became a dark power was just to balance the Jedi unknowingly causing that initial swing.

<<But, I dont say that Palp

 

The exact difinition of "balance/imbalance of the Force" is one of the biggest sources of debate here. Please, Isurus, post you thoughts. It's been months since we've argued about that issue.

Now, as for the bulk of your post, I am in perfect agreement. All is not well with the Jedi. Far from it. I know that in my last post I (shock horror) defended the Jedi council, well now I'm going to bash them again. A little, anyway.

There has been peace in the Republic for 1000 years, since the Sith were supposedly wiped out completely. And in the time, the Jedi have become complacent. No one and nothing has been able to challenge them. A lot of the points I'm about to make are ones that I made a while back, when this thread first started, but I will quickly reiterate them. Firstly, the Jedi council has an enormous amount of power and resources. According to HoloNet News, the Jedi temple is funded with a very large amount of taxpayer credits. They have starfighters, they have ships, comunications and one of the biggest libraries in the galaxy. They have the resources to send their agents anywhere at a moment's notice. A perfect example is the speed at which Obi-Wan was dispatched to Kamino, a planet on the very edge of the galaxy. And in many ways, this is a good thing. But the Jedi no longer have the independence they once had. In recent times, they have become much more closely tied to the government, and rather than being in independent group who goes where they are needed, they have become a glorified police service, going where and doing what the Senate orders. And things are just too good for them. As I said, they are complacent. The council haa become too comfortable with it's power. Many Jedi, as Yoda says, have become arogant and to certain of themselves. He seems to be speaking of Anakin and Mace Windu when he says this, but it can be applied to Qui-Gon as well. As I said before, Qui-Gon is extremely arogant. "The queen trusts my judgement young handmaiden. You should too." Padme replies that he assumes too much. This is absolutely true, and not just of Qui-Gon. Firstly, if Qui-Gon is so in tune with the Force, why did he not sense that this "handmaiden" was more than she seemed? At no point in the movie does Qui-Gon ever consider the posibility that he might be wrong about something. And the council is not free of this either. Despite reliable accounts, they (at first) refuse to belive that the Sith could have returned without them knowing. They think too highly of themselves, beliving that they know everything that goes on in the galaxy. Of course, they, unlike Qui-Gon admit their error. But 10 years later, they still delude themselves with claims that Count Dooku is a diplomat, not a murderer, and that assasination attempts are not in his character. Again, they are fatally wrong. The Jedi delude themselves into beliveing that they still have everything under control, as they have for the last millenium, but really they control nothing. Sidious/Palpatine has turned the entire order into puppets. Remember that the Jedi now serve the senate, rather than the Force. And Palpatine sends them to Geonosis, just where he wants them. An armed incursion into Separatist space is the excuse the Dooku needs to start the war that Sidious wants.

As for the Jedi purge, I always assumed that Sidious continued his manipulations, turning Jedi to the Dark Side, and using them as his soldiers in wiping out what few knights were not killed in the Clone Wars. Obviously Darth Vader took care of a great many Jedi (I want to see him fight Mace Windu. How cool would that be? ), but you are right in saying that he couldn't do it alone. But the Jedi aren't invincible, as we saw in the arena battle, where 200 went in and barely 20 came out. And the Emperor has millions of Clonetroopers at his disposal, and when he declares that the Jedi are the cause of all the Republic/Empire's troubles, as he no doubt will, this Army will join Lord Vader in hunting down the last of them, while they are at the same time destroyed fr

 

Woooohoooo, here we go again! [face_shocked]

Isurus ---

I feel I must disagree with you on the meaning of what Kenobi told Luke about Vader and the Jedi. Kenobi said that "Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights...", which imo is far from saying that Vader slaughtered them all. On the contrary - I will be immensely disappointed if Anakin/Vader doesn't contribute to the fall of the Jedi Knights...

Anakin is part of what I think Lucas intends as a sort of breed #2 of Sith Lords. It has always been the way of the Sith to train their apprentices from birth, just like the Jedi do. But after the death of Darth Maul, Sidious/Palpatine simply doesn't have the time to train another apprentice. Thus, the Dark Lord changes the rules - an act that will benefit his goals in the short term, but ultimately bring about his downfall (the essence of Sith, imo...) - as he TURNS a Jedi instead of training his own apprentice. There is not much training required, mostly just the turning itself. The Jedi Count Dooku becomes Darth Tyranus and Sidious has cheated time. The same thing will obviously happen to Anakin, when he becomes Darth Vader.

Now, on the topic of the Balance of the Force...I think we almost did that one to death a few pages ago, and I'm not that keen on repeating my numerous posts on the issue. Even if you do, Isurus. Therefore I shall try to restrain myself from repeating my disagreement with your dismissal of the Jedi and your appraisal of the Sith as a necessary evil. The root of our disagreement remains; you are of the opinion that the faults of the Jedi made the birth of the Sith inevitable. I'm simply not that willing to blame the Jedi for the creation of the Sith. I see the Sith as a much greater power than a necessity, and thus I don't like to see their immensely deadly lust for power and domination diminished by a kind of "hand of fate", if you get my point.

And the Sith Order was formed about 2000 years before the time of the PT. The great Sith War about 1000 years prior to TPM (not the EU one, but the one Lucas cites in the TPM novel) set the numerous Sith Lords up against each other, and the Jedi had little trouble getting rid of the scattered remains of the Order. Except one. Darth Bane. And then the line continued from Bane to Darth Sidious and the formation of the ultimate Sith Empire and the death of the Jedi and the Republic. For a brief period of time, at least...

I don't disagree with you about how the Jedi have become complacent. I have agreed to this since day one. And Yoda seems to be 100% aware of the problem. As I'm sure Mace Windu and other Jedi are as well.

But Isurus - I'm still not sure if I understand what you think it means to be "one with the Force" or "balanced". Personally, I don't think this is a simple matter of being this or that, behaving in such or such a way, or seeing equal portions of Unifying and Living, or whatever. I'm not sure why you are so certain about which Jedi are "true" Jedi (Qui-Gon Jinn) and who are not (the Jedi Council). But imo, this is an issue beyond easy markings. I think it's very much a case of personal belief, and I don't think the Force really presents the correct answer. This is every Jedi's responsibility.

I find the entire "being in tune with the Force" thing quite impossible to grasp. Because - who is to say? In the end it will still come down to personal beliefs of what is right at what time, and things like that. Unless there is a real voice of God coming through in Episode III and telling us the Will of the Force (if there even IS such a thing), we are forever left to pondering the mystery of the Force and how best to serve it and the greater good of the cosmos. Imo, this is the way it should be. I don't want to be judging about who is wrong and right about all this difficult and philosophical stuff.

Which leads to another thing; what exactly are the Jedi doing wrong? I can listen to your posts about the faults of the Order at length, Isurus, because they ARE interesting and they ARE relevant. But in the

 

Well, thats part of the attraction towards SW and the Force. There is a level of vagueness which allows everyone to see part of whats going on, but also allows anyone to impart their own details into it. What the Jedi are doing "wrong" is not something you can see. It's just something you "know". You can see the Council is slipping. Yoda talks about those many Jedi who are becoming overly-confident. So, no, I cant say exactly what the Jedi are doing wrong. But, we agree on the point that something is wrong, though. Is that all due to Darth Sidious? That very well may be the case. But I truly find that hard to grasp. What I think is happening is these Jedi, like Jocasta Nu for instance, feel they deserve more say and recognition. And, I would say rightfully so. From a distance, a point which we view that society, we can see that the Senate has power over the Jedi. The Jedi can be used like a Death Star if the Chancellor wishes it. For how long has this gone on? In my eyes, that may be a cause of these Jedi feeling the way they do.

Lets take, for instance, the possibility that the Jedi's presence does, indeed, keep the galaxy from going to ****, if you'll pardon my language. But, we also know there is a governing body which the Jedi "choose??" <<maybe Adali or someone knows how this came to be>> to serve. But, obviously by TPM, they're like meer pawns. However, if the Force uses Jedi to mainatin this society to be pleasant but these Jedi have their powers misused, then, by the Force, some Jedi will begin to compensate for that loss. Hmmm..what I'm saying is if the Senate was not "above" the Jedi in the structure of things and the Jedi were allowed to do what they "felt" they needed to do whener they wanted, those number of "cocky" Jedi would never rear their ugly heads. The more the Senate tightens its grip, the more Jedi will feel their power is being squandered, wasted, misused and abused. And what would result from that is some Jedi "lashing" out. Hmm...I'll write more later. Heading to the gym


Isurus

 

Adali, Isurus, good posts, both of you. In fact, I agree with you both.

As Adali says, the fact that the Jedi are not what they once were is not disputed by any of us. And obviously, our maipulation Supreme Chancellor/Sith Lord is using this very much to his advantage. One thing I want to mention that I find very interesting, is that while HoloNet News was still running, there was quite a big sugestion that public opinion of the Jedi is not at an all time high. There are groups, like one called The People's Inquest, who are very vocal and outspoken about making the Jedi accountable for what they do, and these people have quite a following. It's understandable. These people are paying the taxes that keep the Jedi Temple running, and they want to know what's going on. Because the Jedi are quite aloof, and rather elitest, as though they see themselves as above and beyond regular people. Perhaps this was always the case, perhaps not. But it is a manifestation of the arogance and overconfidence that many of the Jedi have. And I think that the articles about public perception of the Jedi will become very important, because the most effective way the Emperor will have of wiping the Jedi out is not his clone army, nor his new apprentice, nor even internal strife in the order. It is to turn the people against them. There are countless trillions of beings in the galaxy, and if the majority of them think the Jedi are their enemies, it will be nigh on impossible for the Jedi to hide. This is what I ecpect to see happening in Episode 3. Palpatine will publicly accuse the Jedi of manipulating the governemnt. He will say (with some justification, from a certain point of view) that it was reckless, unsanctioned action by the Jedi that started the Clone Wars. He will turn the people against them, and then with the aid of the other things I mentioned above, Vader, the clones, and the internal division, he will destroy them.

I also agree with you, Adali, on the subject of trying to find this nebulous concept of an individual being in ballance with the Force. Such a thing is difficult to define. As I've said, I don't think Qui-Gon can be said to be, and I don't think the council can be said to be either. Obi-Wan? Perhaps. If I had to choose one who I thought was, it would perhaps be Luke at the end of ROTJ. He's found the path, steered away from the Dark Side, and essentially helped his father in fullfiling the prophecy and restoring ballance to the Force. So it would be a resonable assumption to say that he himself was balanced. I don't know.

And you're also right about the TF, Adali. If Sidious hadn't been manipulating them, the blockade wouldn't even have happend, and if it did, they would have been a pushover for 2 Jedi negotiators. But it was the fact that there was an outside influence that caught them by surprise. Obi-Wan sensed something, but Qui-Gon did not. That is just another piece of evidence of his short-sightedness. He just can't see the big picture. It is the machinations of the Sith that caught everyone off guard. And the only reason the Jedi even found out that it was the Sith was that they specifically chose to reveal themselves at that time. They knew it would send shockwaves through the Jedi order, and they have capitalised on that. The death of Darth Maul was a setback to Sidious, but as Adali said, he decided on a new method: turning Jedi to the Dark Side rather than training a new apprentice. And in Count Dooku, he picked a very capable aprentice indeed. And 10 years after their first move, the Sith made their second, with the starting of the Clone Wars. This signals the begining of the end for the Republic and the Jedi.

I also agree with points you make, Isurus. Esspecially your repeating of a point I made some time ago, about the Jedi being a Death Star-style terror weapon that the Republic waves at it's enemies. And how if the Jedi had true independence from the senate, the detractors and reckless ones would not rear their heads.

Yes, it's a very dire situation for the Jedi.