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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Force, the Chosen One, Balance, and the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Sable de luz

    Sable de luz Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    its just a name. dark side users are all the same for me.

    and I dont buy the mixing sides theory. Kylo is doing the best he can to not get tempted by the light
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This just in: TFA broke several box office records and wadda ya know they didn't use him.
     
  3. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    The Sith were destroyed at the end of ROTJ, since the Chosen One prophecy was fulfilled. The villains in the ST will probably just try to carry on the Sith's legacy.
     
    darklordoftech likes this.
  4. Darth Krayt

    Darth Krayt Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2015
    I dont think they will. I personally think Snoke might have been a Sith before, but after what he has witnessed (with Sith betraying each other) he chose to abandon it. I think it would be nice to have Vader and Sidious being the last Sith, fulfilling Anakin's prophecy of bringing balance to the force. I do believe Snoke is Darth Plagueis (yes I am one of those dudes), but instead of being a Sith, he is just a darksider. Why does he have to affiliate himself with an organization? He is just who he is.
     
  5. JediRocks74

    JediRocks74 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2015
    The Sith are extinct, my friend. Their fire has gone out of the galaxy.
     
    PCCViking likes this.
  6. Evetssteve10

    Evetssteve10 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Lmao and look what happens when they do something completely new - people ask if they should bring back the old ways
     
  7. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Heh, yeah.
     
  8. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    *threadmerge*
     
  9. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Can't wait for the PT reboot in 2022!

    The prophecy of the chosen one never made any sense. Hopefully it won't be referenced in the ST.
     
  10. the_sinister_hologram

    the_sinister_hologram Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    The Prophecy was referenced. I can't believe so many people have missed one of the FIRST lines spoken in the movie.
    "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance to the Force"
     
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  11. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Oh I heard that line but it does not really affirm the prophecy of THE CHOSEN ONE. The chosen one has been dead for 30 years so the notion that he brought balance is pretty much out the window.

    Which is again another reason the prophecy, as discussed in the PT, made no sense whatsoever.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  12. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I’m reviving this long dormant thread because I’ve been thinking a lot about the prophecy since watching the entire saga as a whole and I just want to get all my thoughts and ideas out of my head. I’m going to break this down into segments.

    The Force

    The Force as we all know is created by all living things. When a being dies they become one with the Cosmic Force. This is the natural way of the universe. So just like there is both good and evil in the universe there is a light and dark side to the Force. While these sides remain equal the Force remains in its natural balanced state. This has been the status quo for all the long millennia the Jedi and the Sith have practiced the Force. So what went wrong?

    The Chosen One

    If we are to understand why a Chosen One is needed first we must understand how the Force went out of balance. The Rise of Skywalker finally gives us our answer. For a millennia now the Sith have cheated death and accumulated power by latching their spirits onto their apprentices after they were defeated. They have unnaturally extended their lives instead of becoming one with the Force. They have become more and more powerful with each succeeding generation until finally we reach Palpatine. Given what we know of him Palpatine is already likely one of the most powerful Force users in history but with all the powers and knowledge of every Sith who proceeded him he has become a truly cosmic power. The Sith embodied in Palpatine is what causes the Force to go out of balance. Their powers are far too vast and thus the dark side begins to overwhelm the light.

    So in an effort to balance itself out the Force creates a being of equal power. This is Anakin Skywalker. Anakin and Palpatine are opposite sides of the same coin. One created naturally through the Force the other created unnaturally through cheating death. Each with this cosmic power to unbalance and balance the Force.


    Balance


    But how exactly is Anakin meant to bring balance to the Force? The Jedi speak of a prophecy and we’re led to believe that destroying the Sith will bring balance to the Force. It makes as sense as Palpatine and the Sith are what has brought the Force out of balance. But just like every Jedi vision we’ve seen in the films the Jedi who originally foresaw the Chosen One defeating the Sith likely didn’t have the full picture.

    Midway (or there abouts) through the Clone Wars Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are brought to Mortis which is another realm of existence and there they meet three powerful Force wielders. They each represent an aspect of the Force. The Daughter (light side), the Son (dark side) and the Father (balance). As we learn in the episodes the Son is growing more powerful and threatens to destroy the Father and the Daughter. This parallels perfectly what is happening in the regular galaxy with Palpatine and the dark side threatening to destroy the balance and overwhelm the light. It is then revealed that Anakin has the power to balance the Son and the Daughter just like the Father does and is meant to be his successor.

    So Anakin was meant to remain on Mortis and take the Father’s place. Restore the balance between the Son and the Daughter and counter Palpatine’s influence in the regular realm. With the Force in balance the Jedi would have had a far better shot at defeating Palpatine before he destroyed them. But Anakin refuses this path and instead joins the Son and falls to the dark side. This again foreshadows his eventual path with Palpatine. The Father is forced to erase his memory of the incident and the Force remains out of balance.

    Anakin’s fall to the dark side is then what seals the dark side’s victory. There is nothing to balance the darkness and the light side is completely overwhelmed. But Anakin’s decision to leave Mortis has other unforeseen consequences. He has children and thus creates a line of descendants that inherit his power. The power to influence the Force on a cosmic level. Luke redeems his father and with Palpatine’s original death the balance is restored. Palpatine’s soul is forced to retreat into a defective clone body.

    The balance is safe with Luke because he himself is far more balanced than the Jedi of old, Leia is not a practicing Jedi and Palpatine was weakened greatly by his defeat. No one to unbalance it. That is until Ben Solo. As Luke says he tried to pass on his strengths to Ben but failed and Ben fell to the dark side becoming Kylo Ren. With Luke cutting himself off from the Force the balance is vulnerable for the first time since Palpatine’s defeat.


    The ST

    Palpatine targets Ben Solo for the same reason he targeted Anakin. His immense power makes him the perfect vessel for the Sith. If they possess a Chosen One-like individual they’d be truly unstoppable. His redemption once again spoils his plans but he has a backup plan just like he had with Luke. But just like Luke Rey refuses to join him and thus he decides to kill both Rey and Ben. He then uses their Force dyad to rejuvenate himself and return to full strength.

    His undoing this time is in underestimating Rey and the Jedi as a whole. How can some scavenger girl defeat him when he has all the power of the Sith within him? Unbeknownst to him though the Jedi found their own path to immortality going all the way back to Qui-Gon. In the end, the combined powers of Rey and all the Jedi is enough to overwhelm and destroy the combined powers of Palpatine and the Sith. With Palpatine finally vanquished and the last Skywalker giving up his own life to save Rey the balance is restored. And this time there is no one left to unbalance it. The story is over.



     
  13. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    That's a brilliant reading of the story, Chiz. =D=

    I've also been thinking about the Chosen One and his bloodline's part in the Force not quite finding balance, and that that's why the Skywalker lineage needed to end. I've just not been able to put it down in words, or - for that matter - place it within the wider context like that.

    Now I really need to start my Saga marathon.
     
  14. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I don't know. It seems to me that, narratively speaking, the dyad was created to hold the balance. But they also wanted to kill all Skywalkers and that Rey take their name. So we got the dyad and All the Jedi and it's just a mess now. They should have stuck with one idea only. Either dyad defeats Palaptine and exists as the holder of the balance, or there's no dyad but only Rey manages to summon all the Jedi to balance out all the Sith.

    IMO, the dyad was a good idea but they dropped it in favor of All the Jedi (good idea in its own right but not together with the dyad which had much more development) and misused it for Palapatine rejuvenation. Talk about no payoff.
     
  15. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Huh? Eliminating evil is bringing balance to the Force?[face_dunno]
     
  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    It’s not eliminating evil. There is still plenty of evil in the galaxy and the dark side itself isn’t destroyed. It’s eliminating the Sith who have brought about the imbalance.
     
  17. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Palpatine and Anakin. 'Darkness rises, and light to meet it'. That was, 9 years before TPM, the rise of Skywalker.

    There were no jedi ghosts back then. Could that be made to happen? Was Rey 'caused'?

    I mean, Ben was sent away when the force 'awakened in him' (he was 11). Rey was conceived that year. Snoke calls 'Skywalker' the 'seed of the jedi order'; and JJ talked about having a 'bad seed' as a kid (Ben). There's also this part in Rey's 1st lesson -'death and decay, that feeds new life'.

    'I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise'. Does an awakening qualify as 'growing stronger'?

    We know Snoke's 'Skywalker, I assumed. Wrongly' was Snoke assuming correctly. She is Skywalker. So maybe Skywalker was made to rise again 10-11 years after ROTJ. Maybe Ben and Rey share Anakin as their grandfather, but not their respective parents.

    'The dyad, a power like life itself'. Was it possible to learn that power?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
    whostheBossk likes this.
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Is he really, though?
     
  19. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    "For many years there was balance [...]". Yes. he probably was.
     
  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The Force being balanced by Anakin does not mean Luke was "more balanced than the Jedi of old".
    Luke's dialogue in ROTJ indicates that he intends to be seen as a traditional Jedi.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  21. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    But Prime Jedi isn't the traditional Jedi is he?

    [​IMG]

    he's Yin and Yang while traditional Jedi are just Yang.

    Also, this

    [​IMG]

    New as in more traditional Jedi will rise or New as in New Kind of Jedi?

    The way TROS ends, with Rey as a lone Jedi and the death of the dyad, I'd say new = more traditional Jedi rather than a new kind.
     
    CampOfSorgan likes this.
  22. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Right... the dark side is a natural part of the Force, but it naturally occupies a small part of the whole. But it's always going to be there. The issue comes from dark side users like the Sith whose usage of it makes it grow relative to the Force as a whole, and thus throws the Force out of balance (or harmony).
     
  23. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Personal fan theory: the ritual performed by Plagueis and Sidious (in the DP novel) is what finally skewed the balance of the Force in favor of the dark side. The Force strikes back (seriously. That’s the title of the chapter) by creating Anakin. Decades later, Sidious attempts to create an uber-Sith “son” with his own genetic material. The Force strikes back by making that offspring a Force “Squib.” Sidious utilizes the knowledge gained from Plagueis to create Snoke. The Force strikes back by imbuing Rey with all the potential that Sidious had intended for his son.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  24. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    The way I see it, Palpatine wanted to cheat death. 'All who gain power are afraid to lose it'.

    The son was to be a vessel, a new body for the same spirit. But he had no force powers. So the ritual could not be performed.

    You can't have a FS son without a mother. You need a womb. In SW you can even do without a father (Shmi), but not without a mother. That's not how the force works. Which means genetic recombination, I suppose; that's how Palpatine got his powers in the first place. Even he had a mother.

    So, I guess, Palpatine let his failure/son go and then followed him. Maybe he even arranged for him and Rey's mother to meet (in the PT he does just that a couple of times with Padme and Anakin) Their offspring would have Palpatine's 'blood' and force powers derived from the womb. Just what the ritual required. The bad part is, he had to wait until the child was an adult.

    In TROS, Palpatine is surprised about the 'dyad'. There was something else at play when Rey was conceived, and it wasn't his son/clone, or not only him.

    Snoke was talking about Rey retrospectively in TLJ. Kylo's equal in the light was to be Skywalker. 'Skywalker, I assumed. Wrongly.'

    But he was not wrong. Rey Skywalker. Was he right about Rey Skywalker being 'the seed of the jedi order'? Darkness rises, and light to meet it.

    Why the 'seed' metaphor? It's also implied in what Rey sees during her first lesson 'death and decay that feeds new life'
    [​IMG]
    'Seeds'. Maybe the rise of Skywalker took place 20 years before TROS at the 'seed' (=conception) level.

    Rey was conceived the year Han and Leia thought there was 'too much Vader' in Ben. That was darkness 'rising'. Or, 'decay' from another POV.

    Maybe the seed of Kylo Ren in Ben was made to cause the seed os a new life. A boy being connected to a woman, and letting the force do its thing.

    That would be the jedi equivalent of 'Darth Plagueis was a powerful Sith Lord who was able to use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life'.

    'Is it possible to learn that power?'. Maybe Anakin brought balance twice.

    And maybe Palpatine was already being outmaneuvered at his own game 'in the shadows, from the very beginning'. Those ghosts were there talking to Rey in front of his throne and he didn't know; the dyad, a power lke life itself, was in front of him but he didn't know.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  25. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2005
    The way I always read it was that it was the natural vs the unnatural.

    You've got the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side of the Force and they exist in balance with each other and most importantly, in balance with nature. It's not the Dark Side itself that brings the Force out of balance, it's not even Dark Side users in general, it's specifically the Sith and the way the use the Force. They do things that run contrary to the natural order. Things like cheating death, things like raising the dead. Whether or not they're successful at doing such things, their attempts at disrupting the natural order is what brings the Force out of balance.

    So Anakin restoring the balance isn't about numbers. It's not about number of Sith vs number of Jedi. If a trillion people across the galaxy got angry all at once, would that shift the balance? No. But if a single Sith Lord uses the Force in a way that is essentially against nature, that does shift the balance. The actions of the Sith disrupt the life cycle of the Force from Living Force to Cosmic Force to Living Force. So by destroying the Emperor and himself, Anakin destroys those who use the Force in that unnatural way, allowing the Force to effectively heal itself and restore the balance between light and dark. Under the control of the Sith, the Dark Side becomes a kind of poison to the Force, a corruption. Without the powers and knowledge of the Sith to deal with, the Force has a chance to get back to its natural state.

    Of course this interpretation is completely undone by the sequels, as is Anakin's role as the Chosen One. It was always my understanding that once a Sith is dead, they cease to exist. They don't become part of the Cosmic Force, their essence is purged from the Force. So when the Emperor dies, there's no spirit to salvage. I believe an early draft of Return Of The Jedi had Yoda essentially descending into hell in order to rescue Anakin's spirit from oblivion. But even if Palpatine could find a way to cheat death, for him to do it after Anakin kills him completely undermines Anakin's sacrifice and role as the Chosen One. He was conceived by the Force to restore the balance and according to the sequels, he failed.

    To hear Christensen tell Rey to "restore the balance as I did" was a kick in the teeth to Anakin's story and Lucas' vision because Anakin didn't restore the balance. If he had Palpatine wouldn't still be around.

    I think the sequels should have moved away from light side vs dark side, Jedi vs Sith. That story was done. The heroes won, the Force was back in balance. There should have been an entirely new threat with a new perspective on the Force and a different goal, allowing Anakin and Luke's victory over the Sith to stand, allowing the prophecy to remain fulfilled while opening the door for something different, something that didn't undermine what happened in Return Of The Jedi.