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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Force, the Chosen One, Balance, and the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Immortiss, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    I cannot imagine a clean slate. It's possible, but then so many would complain about the fact that all the 'baggage' in the PT was excluded. No, I don't think that's conceivable due to the fact that your favorite SW writer and mine provided the treatments. I think the best we can hope for is that the ST helps to clarify the PT and the saga as a whole. The ST has the potential to make the PT much better than it is by itself.
     
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  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Indeed, the ST should, if anything, unite the Saga, not tear it further apart.
     
  3. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Lawrence Kasdan wrote the treatments for the ST?!
     
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  4. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Anakin is the chosen one and in the ST the only part of him left are the twins.
    Luke and Leia are part of the chosen one prophecy so they should be the focus. What they do, what they create. i'm thinking about the re-proliferation of jedi in the galaxy. The twins are the sole teachers of the force now. They have begun forging a new jedi order and with the Light side comes the Dark. Fighting this is the main storyline.

    a good part of the teaching we see could be parts of the prophecy, anakin's fall, obi and yoda communing with qui-gon, becoming one with the force, etc. Being at peace and the discovery that death itself is another way to join with the force, not something to be feared. That the goal of existence is to keep the Dark side from taking over and enslaving people.

    The Dark side will come back simply because there are jedi studying the force. The temptation will be too great and some will fall.
     
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  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Where is that stated?
     
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  6. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I stated it. Just like science or anything else. It may be used for good but can be twisted for evil.

    How did the Dark side come about? Probably because someone made the choice to use the force for evil.
     
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  7. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    The ST, if it acknowledges the OT, should definitely acknowledge the existence of the PT. Like it or not the PT is part of the saga, and a pretty major part at that. I would love for the whole idea of the Chosen One to get some clarification. Even Yoda says in ROTS that the prophecy may have been misread.
     
  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Okidokipokey.
     
  9. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    All of those plastic SW fans over at the IMDB boards make me laugh. Calling for no acknowledgment of the PT at all, pretending that they never happened, conveniently forgetting that the PT is just as important as the OT, story-wise.
     
  10. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013

    Maybe Luke should wake up from a terrible nightmare, that nightmare being the PT.
     
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  11. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
  12. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Haha, it's funny. In a way, we're all like the Jedi. Some of us don't believe the prophecy at all (or even like it for that matter), some of us can't fully accept it, hell, NONE of us even know what it actually means.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The one thing I don't want is for more Jedi to fall, especially if they're SkySolos.
     
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  14. JediKnightOB1

    JediKnightOB1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2003
    Born Again?!? There is a novel idea.
     
  15. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    What if they trip? Is that O.K? No falling though.
     
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  16. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Different thread.

    But the PT has already made Star Wars a confusing downer. Confusing in the sense that Anakin is meant to be some kind of hero, when he's also a murderer. That to me is a downer. And I usually like downers and confusion.

    Darth Chiznuk: I agree that Anakin can be interpreted as having free will. I don't mind that part of the free will argument; I mind the part that entails the loss of the Force's moral status. What bothers me is that the PT makes the force/life seem like an amoral sort of force, with no intelligent purpose to what it's doing. In the OT, the Force was represented as favoring the good in all cases. Mass slaughter or genocide could never inadvertently lead to a Good.

    I know the Force has never been given agency to the extent a God would be, but it has also been suggested the Force has a moral purpose, and a telos, by which I mean a kind of design and purpose to its existence and actions. This presupposes a kind of intelligence and moral status. But if that were the case, why would it produce a being like Anakin who would be capable of destroying so many lives? The Force even allows Jedi and Sith to see the future, or possible futures, so it would have to be aware on some level (however a "Force" can be aware) that Anakin is too dangerous to be created. But it created him.

    This leaves me with the following conclusions or implications about the Force:

    1) It's not conscious/intelligent; or
    2) It's not morally purposeful (amoral and non-teleological); or
    3) It's moral nature is either gray or evil (ambiguous/immoral); or
    4) When the Force becomes imbalanced, it's moral nature becomes clouded; or
    5) Something or someone else was responsible for Anakin's creation (e.g., Plagueis).

    As a Star Wars fan I find options 1-3 problematic -- although in a world like Beckett's, I wouldn't mind.

    Options 4) and 5) could provide interesting answers to the problems I'm raising about the Force.

    darklordoftech: "It's relevant to the prophecy." Okay. How so? I just don't think we need to hear the falling objection again. No offense. :)
     
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  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Huh? It's relevant to the prophecy.
    It would mean that darksiders aren't extinct.
    I was talking about the ending of the Saga.
     
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  18. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    edit: double post
     
  19. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    I always assumed that the Star Wars - Main Title Theme was Luke's Theme, the Hero. If it were, than his theme is the main theme for every single episode in the entire saga. As Dra--- said in an above post, Luke makes a much better 'Chosen One' than Anakin. He is benevolent, kind and faithful. He cares about people and helps his friends in need without concern for his own life. He believes and has a strong faith. He walked into the Emperor's Chambers determined to be a Jedi and succeeded. He refused to listen to Force Ghost Ben and Yoda and believed in the possibility of his Father's redemption, when no one else did. Not even the Ghost! He refused to take revenge and kill his Father, when he could have justified it as killing Darth Vader, as he was instructed (from a certain POV), but again, he believed in mercy. Luke threw away his lightsaber in a statement that meant he'd rather die than turn. He practiced an active, moral non-violent resistance that succeeded in convinving his father to take righteous action and redeem himself. It is for these reasons that Luke should be the Chosen One, immaculate birth or not. He is all too human and that's the best part. No divinity required (although Grandfather Skywalker was the Force).

    Incidentally, is there any significance in the fact that Luke, like Qui-Gon, chose or had a green lightsaber? Where did he get the crystal? I know he had the instructions from Ben's hovel and constructed it there, but I am wondering if there is any symbolism? I'm sure there is...Qui-Gon the Prophet, Anakin the God (Old Testament, Self-Justifying) and Luke the Messiah.

    Also, it's interesting to note that Vader claims Luke's training is complete because of the construction of the weapon and Yoda and Ben claim that only when he confronts Vader will he be a Jedi. Hey, that's one hell of a trial.
     
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  20. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I feel like green saber = wise (with blue being neutral and red being angry).
     
  21. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Also, Green Lightsaber = Purity.
     
  22. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013

    You're right about Luke. That's a big part of the reason why the idea that the saga was the story of Anakin falls on deaf ears, as does a great deal of the extra importance placed on the shoulders of the Anakin character, in the form of virgin birth space messiah crap. And it's a part of why I think those aspects should be forgotten in the ST. They don't work.
     
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I don't see that one. Nobody seems "pure" to me in Star Wars.
    I don't think "Tragedy of Darth Vader" and "Adventures of Luke Skywalker" are mutually exclusive.
     
  24. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    "It would mean that darksiders aren't extinct." True. But you wouldn't advocate falling (as part of the plot) for this purpose, right? This also raises another ambiguity in the prophecy others have mentioned and I don't believe we can answer with certainty: does the prophecy concern the darkside, or only Sith?

    "I was talking about the ending of the Saga." It is a valid point, and I agree, Star Wars should have a positive ending. But right now, until we get the ST, the ending of ROTJ is already morally problematic. Sure the Ewoks are singing and the Emperor is dead, but here is force ghost Anakin, our hero, murderer of younglings and complicit with genocide. Yay! Let's celebrate!

    Immortiss: I always assumed that the Star Wars - Main Title Theme was Luke's Theme, the Hero. If it were, than his theme is the main theme for every single episode in the entire saga. As @Dra--- said in an above post, Luke makes a much better 'Chosen One' than Anakin. He is benevolent, kind and faithful. He cares about people and helps his friends in need without concern for his own life. He believes and has a strong faith. He walked into the Emperor's Chambers determined to be a Jedi and succeeded. He refused to listen to Force Ghost Ben and Yoda and believed in the possibility of his Father's redemption, when no one else did. Not even the Ghost! He refused to take revenge and kill his Father, when he could have justified it as killing Darth Vader, as he was instructed (from a certain POV), but again, he believed in mercy. Luke threw away his lightsaber in a statement that meant he'd rather die than turn. He practiced an active, moral resistance that succeeded in convinving his father to take righteous action and redeem himself. It is for these reasons that Luke should be the Chosen One, immaculate birth or not. He is all too human and that's the best part. No divinity required (although Grandfather Skywalker was the Force).


    Wonderfully written and well-stated. It expresses all my thoughts and feelings about why Luke or his offspring need to be considered part of the Chosen One prophecy for it to make any moral sense.

    darklordoftech. There comes a certain point when the tragic hero becomes something different, acquires a status incompatible for the word "hero" to be used. Anakin might be a tragic figure or a tragic protagonist, but I shudder to call a killer a hero, no matter how tragic a killer they may be.

    Bottom line: Anakin needs to do more. Much more. I don't know what it could be though. Can he raise Younglings from the dead?
     
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  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    exactly
    good question