The Force Unleashed: The Multimedia EU Event of '08 (and beyond!)

My point is that it supports the fact that Vader only supplied the DNA, and not the actual person being cloned, and apparently would not provide the cloners with the body either. Because you play as the person being cloned, i.e. the original Starkiller, whom never died, under this interpretation.

 

So your argument is basically that the original was on Kamino inside a cloning tank, referred to with a number, with various reports on his mental instablility, development and whatnot, yet the cloners wished their could study him. I see. Makes perfect sense.

 

When is it ever established that the character you played as was ever in a tank?

The clone that was on the website was killed by the player character....

Seriously folks, if it was so cut and dry over whether Starkiller in TFU2 was a clone, then they wouldn't have introduced so much ambiguity. And they would have made it pretty clear one way or another -- something that Sean Williams said they intentionally did not do.

 

I agree, Starkiller reminds me of Anakin right after he turned to the Dark Side. The fully organic Vader was a prideful, egotistical, selfish, power-hungry whiner who flaunted his power and did not cherish it as the gift that it was and held an unhealthy obsession with his wife who he felt only his power could save. Starkiller comes off as just as obsessed with Juno even though he only knew her for a short time and he might not even be the real Starkiller, he comes off as a big baby who can't learn to let go and will kill anyone who stands in his way of getting what he wants.

Mere potential. Yes, Vader wants his old body back but he will never be the way he once was, Anakin was a fool who wasted his gifts and had the potential to be the master but Vader can be more than Anakin ever was because he learned to let go of his attachments. Vader has every right to be disgusted with Starkiller because he is just as weak and as foolish as he once was as Anakin, he knows from personal experience unless Starkiller rises above his own mental handicaps he will never become as powerful as he has the potential to be.

Starkiller is only playing the game of being a Jedi, he is too attached to his past and too filled with rage and fear to become a true Jedi. Ironically Vader is more of a Jedi than he will ever be because he has actually learned to let go of his past and to concentrate his emotions instead of letting them run rampant like a child, no wonder Tarkin called him a Jedi and the only remnant left of that "old religion" the Jedi Order.

 

Doh! You are right. Wrong clone. Still, 1126 is on Kamino, guarded by lowly Stormies. It is a pretty big stretch that he would be hard to get a hold of if he was the original. Wheras if I remember Distant Thunder right, the Dark Apprentice by constrast had to display his perfection before even getting to see the Marek corpse.

I agree it is not cut and dry. But you are after all arguing that the dude captured inside the cloning facility was impossible for the scientists to study. That is rather unlikely without anything to back it up. And when you then consider the surrounding evidence, his designation, his visions, Vader referring to him as a clone, Distant Thunder, and him thinking himself a clone, it looks bleak. Your most important counter to all of the above was the mention of a lack of ability to study the original, and that fact is ambiguous at best given how easy it was to get access to 1126 and Distant Thunder corpse-Marek respectively.

 

"You still don't believe that I'm a Clone who was raised in a vat?"-Rhett Clone onboard the Salvation.

And who is to say that the character we played as, WASN'T created SOLELY for the purpose of testing the Dark Apprentice? Killing Juno is one thing, but the DA had to be willing to kill a different version of himself to prove he had absolutely no sympathy. Overcoming attachments was just the first obstacle, permanently choking-off his empathy was the bigger mountain to climb.... and since he DIDN'T strike, we don't know if the DA was ACTUALLY successful. We'd have to ask Vader, he's only one he knows the WHOLE plan.

 

Let me clarify my stance here:

I'm not saying Starkiller in TFU2 is or isn't a clone. I'm saying it's deliberately ambiguous whether or not he is, and that to jump to any particular conclusion as "fact" is doing a disservice to the story. I've noticed that Star Wars fandom in general seems to take issue with matters of ambiguity; I think Wookieepedia is part of the reason for this. Perhaps this also contributes toward the general dislike toward TCW by those more immersed in the Expanded Universe: the "up in the air" status of the Clone Wars timeline isn't conducive toward those that need things cut and dry, able to be laid out in a Wookieepedia entry timeline. I suppose this attitude itself is simply a product of SW fandom in general, due to its unique nature of having a single continuity. Matters of ambiguity seemingly clash with the idea that there's a continuity with only one right, canonical answer.

So I suppose maybe I shouldn't find it a bit peculiar that everyone accepts without question that Starkiller is a clone in TFU2, when the novel and game (haven't read the comic) go to great lengths to call that into question, and no answer is ever supplied.

My point with the inability of the scientists to study the original was that it allows one the interpretation that Vader had the original in the prison, mindwiped/mindrubbed/whatever a la Revan, attempting to convince him that he was a clone, while Vader's scientists worked on actual clones as a fallback plan. The original is unavailable to them because Vader doesn't want to compromise convincing Starkiller he's a clone in case the work on cloning him proves unsuccessful.

And like I said before, I don't buy that Distant Thunder is canonical until Dark Apprentice appears in a canon storyline.

 

Does the TFU novelization say that Starkiller died?

If so, then Staarkiller is indeed a clone.

 

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Do the novels read like:

"And then Starkiller was a zombie."

They're novels, not factual discourses that accurately relay every single event without perspective or point of view. This is especially true, paradoxically, in SW continuity, given the contradictions that arise.

I'm sure Kota says Starkiller died at the end of the novel, or implies it, but then he also says "By the Force! I knew you were alive!"

 

But I didn't get the sense that "I knew you were alive" was necessarily meant to be taken as factual indication that it was the original Starkiller. Just Kota jumping to conclusions.

 

A sort of meta-perspective, then. I can appreciate that. When efforts are made to keep things ambiguous, there should be room to question whether the creators made those efforts so they might turn the obvious answer on its head. Fair enough.

On the other hand, they did promise that the game would answer the question. Distant Thunder comes to mind as the most solid delivery on that in the game.

 

The version of Rhett who proxy-Vader woke-up on the science-lab table seemed to think so. He even said as much: "YOU killed ME!!" If anyone would know, Rhett would.

 

Some parts of the fandom have problems with ambiguity....

Other parts have problems reading between the lines. Not everything has to be expliclity spelled out to be fact. It is just part of good storytelling - show, don't tell.

Plus, the creators themselves said he was a clone, and the only person in game who thinks that he isn't objects on the statement that "no one can clone a jedi", which is rather explicitly not true considering you fight through waves of other clones at the end of the game. (Or even earlier if my theory that the Sith Acolytes and Saber Guards are Galen Clones).

What reason is there to think otherwise? Where is this ambiguity?

 

While I don't rule out the possibility that he might not be a clone, as things currently stand as far as TFU2 goes, I think it's fairly safe to conclude that we're meant to think he's a clone, even if the characters themselves have no way of knowing.

This said, I can agree with Dream's point about the Wookieepedia canon wars that, more often than not, are driven by the need for someone to be right, rather than in the interests of good storytelling. I roll my own eyes sometimes when literalisms are interpreted as evidence of something, ignoring the possibility of a character either being misinformed, deliberately lying, being sarcastic, etc.

But, as I say, in this case I don't think those are likely to apply. Though there is a fair point to be raised about "Why did they reopen the question in the game's ending then?", I myself didn't take Kota's uncertainty about whether he was "the real Starkiller" as referring to whether he was a clone as much as simply being a more philosophical statement of "Does it matter either way? He is who he is." I took it more as Kota saying "So what if he's a clone? If he loves Juno and Juno loves him, that's all that matters, clone or no clone."

But, no, I don't rule out that they could come along and throw us a curve ball, but then one could apply the same "What ifs?" to pretty much anything in the EU, so there does just come a point where subjective probability has to draw a line somewhere. For my part, Vader et al and Starkiller's own visions of his predecessors being stabbed all strike me as very difficult for them to retcon away in TFU3.

 

Not to mention the apparent clone-madness that threatened to overwhelm him at the end.

 

Maybe he was getting mentally whacked out like Luke did when he fought Luuke. Times one thousand.

The problem I have with the Dark Apprentice being in the light side ending and Vader intentionally letting himself be captured, is that if I'm to accept that the Dark Apprentice was around all this time during the game, then why is Vader even bothering with this crap? Kill Starkiller, be done with it*, replace him with his evil doppelganger to infiltrate the Rebellion, leaving Juno and Kota none-the-wiser, then strike at the leadership and decapitate the Alliance when the time is right. That seems a lot less risky and a lot more effective than what Vader does in either ending, whether he intentionally let himself be captured or just had Dark Apprentice hunt the leaders down.

I think it makes more sense to have Vader let himself be captured sans Dark Apprentice, with Fett in the loop.

*As opposed to playing mind games with him during the duel, threatening Juno's life in exchange for his service, etc. Why would Vader even go that route if he has the Dark Apprentice waiting around?

Edit: I suppose I should note that this is probably more a critique on the writing itself rather than anything else, given that Vader does this stuff in the dark side ending in which the Dark Apprentice indisputably exists, but I honestly didn't like the dark side ending apart from Dark Apprentice's detached demeanor, which the Endor DLC sort of ruined.

 

An obvious answer for Vader allowing himself to be be captured is so that the Starkiller you play as in TFU2 could be spared and be used for Vader's own purposes at a later date. Vader showcases interest in Starkiller joining him as he has clear potential for overcoming the clone madness (if he is in fact a clone that is) and for reaching a pinnacle of power comparable to his perfect Starkiller clone, Vader is not above multiple apprentices as can be seen with Lumina. Vader's capture allows him to kill two birds with one stone, the Dark Apprentice can infiltrate the Rebel Alliance thus destroying it from the inside-out and Starkiller can be captured and subdued for Vader to brainwash.

Starkiller sparing Vader is symbolic of Vader still having a hold on his mind and his destiny, had he tried to strike him down then the Dark Apprentice would have been forced to kill him. Vader wants Starkiller to live and serve him, he wouldn't have bothered otherwise.

 

I dare say there could also simply be an acknowledgement by Vader that Starkiller was always going to be love sick schoolboy who could never get over Juno. Sure, the Dark Apprentice seemed on the surface to be "perfect" and to have finally conquered those feelings; but there was still always the risk that it could backfire and blow up in Vader's face again. Much better to have a backup plan in place. Send the love sick puppy in first to infiltrate the Rebellion, and only send in the (currently) still loyal clone once you know the exact location to get the job done. Last thing Vader wants is another clone playing triple agent and screwing him over the moment before he finally cuts off the Rebellion's head.

In the dark side ending, I always got an odd feeling when the Dark Apprentice glances down at Juno's corpse... if they keep the DLC going, then I won't be greatly surprised if we end up in a situation where he snaps and wants to take revenge for being manipulated into killing her.

 

My take is the clone that played through as, IS the final test for the Dark Apprentice. Nothing ELSE makes as much sense to me at this point. So unless somebody has a better idea, then I'm sticking with that.

 

That's my expectation for future DLC, expansions or TFU3, yes.

I look forward to a final battle between the Light Apprentice and the Dark Apprentice.

Goodbye Rahm Kota and the Dantooine base in an explosion of unleashed powers.

 

I could live with an epic, "neither shall survive" showdown between dark-Rhett and emo-Starkiller...


Just as long as they take Dantooine's rebel base with them.

 

I would prefer if emo-Starkiller won the fight... But then Vader comes. Starkiller then attacks Vader, but the Sith Lord effortlessly defeats and kills his apprentice, showing that he is still the master! Then Vader kills everyone inlcuding Juno and Rahm Kota. (Also all those stupid Battlefront games become non-canon)

That would be my dream ending

Although Vader defeating a team up of both Starkillers would be awesome as well.

 

Indeed.

And for anyone who may be thinking "But... but... why didn't Vader mention he knew about Dantooine in ANH?" the same thing could be said for why didn't he ever mention he knew the Organas were a bunch of terrorists.

The Sith work in mysterious ways. (AKA: "Kriff you Moff Tarkin, you think you know it all, but you don't know schutta!")

Oh good god yes! That would be AWESOME!

"You think you BEAT me on the Death Star? I LET you win. Fool. Now you have led me right to the Rebels base."

 

THIS.

As for beating-down the Rhett clone-tag team, their combined stength is simply no match for our favorite, crippled dark lord of the Sith. A broken Vader is always worth more than two Rhett's. Even if they come with an extra 2000 copies.

 

Palp foreseeing Vader's fall on Mustafar was made in exasperated jest, but sure enough: Star Wars: Purge p. 7:

Palpatine to Vader: This is not about the Jedi. This is about your former master -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. You want revenge upon him for the pain he has caused you. That is only natural. He left you for dead. Had I not foreseen it, you would have died.

That is a bit more drastic than merely feeling he was in danger, as in the movie. Having actually foreseen things, this being instrumental to V's survival (the potions and crap), also suggests Palp indeed had time to plot out the special supersuit that would keep Vader on a leash until he truly could supplant the old man for real.


Hmm. Leave it to Palp...