The Force: Why Jinn is crucial to understanding...

I have made a few posts on this site, mostly pertaining to the living force. I have been reading the thread on the new dialogue and some of the negativity about Jinn's rumored role. I am here to address it.

There are obviously two prevailing philosophies in the jedi order, with adherence to the living force at the bottom. Now, one must understand, there is only the force. Both parties are wrong and both are correct.

Jinn takes too many risks. If he would have left anakin alone, then most likely the boy would have fulfilled his destiny regardless. But he did not and anakin left. The fact he was attached to his mother was not bad. Thats life. He had little choice in the matter.

Now Yoda and his contemporaries are wrong by looking at the future to much, never aware of their surroundings. I can see why. The jedi order has been around for ages. What could possibly destroy them? As well, Yoda is wise beyond measure. Complacency and arrogance has set in. Decay typically begins from within.

Now Jinn had it right on how to be a jedi. In tune with life, compassionate towards others, trusting in the will of the force on all matters. While the jedi became detached, Jinn did not.

NOw the fact Yoda agrees to become his apprentice speaks volumes. We all learn from each other and he who stops learning is ignorant. The jedi have stopped and yoda admits this error.

But I dont look at this is as Jinn being deified and Yoda cast aside, but rather as a true master accepting the fact that we can learn something from anyone.

In the end, both Jinn and Yoda are more powerful and enlightened.

If you are suprised he is in it as a voice or what not, you need to rewatch the Phantom Menace. He is the central figure. It only makes sense that he is involved to show the jedi the true path to becoming one with the force.

 

I like what you said.

 

Sometimes dogma needs to be broken.

 

the only peopele who don't like qui-gon's important role in ROTS and the saga didn't understand phantom menace, and I can't ask them to now.

 

I'm still praying thaat LN is in ROTS is some capacity. I understand that it was a necessity for him to die in TPM, but he was the best thing about it. He's the epitome of a Jedi, in my eyes. I've seen to much "evidence" from both sides of the fence to believe he's in the film or not in the film. I've accepted the fact, it will probably be one of the things that GL has an extremely tight lid on and we'll just have to wait and see.

I hope, but not holding my breath.

 

I could use some Jinn right now....

 

Very nice post. I agree that one should not pass Yoda off as a complete failure. He is still the most powerful Jedi out there; he merely needed some tweaking. Likewise, like you said, Qui-Gon is never supposed to be seen as the man with all the answers; he simply sees the importance of love and existing day by day instead of always having one's head in the future.

 

You're right. Neither is perfect - both Qui-Gon and Yoda make mistakes in the course of the PT. But Yoda is wise enough to accept that in some areas - connection to the living Force, for example - Qui-Gon had forged a greater connection to the Force, and Yoda is wise enough to want to learn about this from Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon isn't perfect - GL himself has said that Qui-Gon is doing something very dangerous in TPM by having Anakin trained, even though ultimately in RotJ it turns out he was right - but neither is Yoda. They have to learn things from each other.

 

this is not original and is discussed at least twice a month

 

wow..that was very well said...i liked that..

 

I could use some Jinn right now....

Happy to oblige...

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/CaptainNick/gin.jpg]

 

I couldnt of said it better myself QGJ=the compassion of the force. I like it

 

It may not be original, but I think it is worthy of note on its own. This is the way intelligent folks will see ROTS afterwards, seeing both the wisdom and the failures of both Jinn and the Jedi.

Same with Anakin. Everyone refers to him deciding to marry Padme as a mistake. Well, it kind of was, but the jedi were wrong to forbid marriage in he first place. Too rigid, were they.

When Anakin gives his speech about love in AOTC, he isn't literally saying the Jedi encourage love. he is saying that given his entire understanding of his job, he thinks love is animportant part. It is his way of bothing playing by and getting around the rules -- rules which should not be so rigid in the first place.

That scene is actually Anakin having what will later be considered an epiphany. He gets it. He knows the power of love and that it has to play an essential part to being a Jedi. But because of the failings of his mentors, and because of his own inability to sort these lessons out himself, Anakin is lost, and therefore susceptible to Palpatine.

 

lol captain nick..well put as well

 

This is why i think Anakin was the chosen one for killing the sith AND ELIMINATING THE JEDI..
they were too scientifical in style

unlike QuiGon..who was totally different...

i mean..common..jedi not allowed to love?!

thats not cool at all.... thats why Yoda is now QuiGons student

 

the only peopele who don't like qui-gon's important role in ROTS and the saga didn't understand phantom menace, and I can't ask them to now.

I like the way you think...well said.

 

Good thread, good points..

I'd like to add a little quote that supports an idea of this thread: TPM; (OWK)"but master yoda said i should be mindful of the future.." (QGJ) "but not at the expense of the moment, be mindful of the living force"

another possible idea:
dooku served a dual purpose in AOTC in that a) he furthers the plot of the sith without revealing to the jedi who the real mastermind (palpatine) was behind it all

and b) showing that the seemingly all powerful jedi yoda was not so, and had been losing touch with the force in that Dooku, his former padawan, had turned to the darkside...

Of the three jedi (yoda, obi-wan, and qui-gon) only qui-gon (during the time period of the PT) had succesfully trained a padawan learner who would not fall to the darkside (obi-wan).. although i think obi-wan has a bit of leeway in the fact that he "failed" with anakin because he was still young, and despite qui-gon being his master, he hadn't come to understand the full meaning of the force.. Although i believe that in the OT he redeems himself by redeeming vader through luke.. and that fact that he comes to this is because of Qui-Gon.

I think the original image of a jedi is that they were (or should try to be) completely virtuous (which leads to the holier than thou sort of mindset).. But when we look at Qui-Gon in TPM he seems a bit suspicious at times, and less than saintly ("cheating" in the game of chance with watto, and pretending to anakin that he had come to free slaves).. It seems reminiscent of old Obi-Wan, in that he is vary vague and slightly misleading in what he tells luke, and in what he tries to lead him to believe.. I think by ANH Obi-Wan realized that the only way to balance the Force was to balance Vader, and i think he knew that only luke could do that, by bringing him back from the darkside.

I think thats why he joined the force in the middle of the duel with vader.. he realizes that with himself out of the way vader will have no anger left to feed on (obi-wan being the last real thing of his "past life" as anakin skywalker) no revenge to enact, no one to best, except for the emperor. However he cant do that without the help of luke.. Therefore Yoda and Obi-wan tried to craft Luke into a "weapon" that would allow himself to be destroyed rather than turn to the darkside (obviously he could not combat the emperors powers with what little they taught him, i think he was meant to be overwhelmed by the emperor so that vader would have to step in and save him.. Yoda and Obi-wan knew vader wouldnt make the same mistake twice) I think despite certain impressions he gives to luke (like the fact that he "thinks" vader can't be turned) are untrue, but they put luke in a certain mode of thinking..

I mean how Yoda and Obi-wan teach in the OT compared to how the jedi taught in the PT, they are much less "structured" and much more vague, i think cause, as suggested in this thread, they are no longer trying to churn out perfect jedi (so to speak).. IN the PT there is no depiction of teaching padawans of the darkside, its only beware of it.. IN OT Yoda puts luke in a direct position to confront the darkside in himself (the cave)..

Both Yoda and Obi-Wan have come to understand that the Force is the only thing that matters, and that sentient beings can tap into it, but that they are still "human".. and no matter how evil or pure their actions seem (once again as suggested by this thread), that neither one is wrong or right.. There is no good and evil, there are simply two halves of a whole..

 

Is scientifical a word???

 

Good points naturalfist and LordPlagueis



Yoda and Obi Wan are much less structured in the OT. ObiWan says to trust your instincts and "Do what you feel is right, of course". Yoda also says "No there is no why..." "You will know when you are calm, at peace..."

So they are really teaching Qui-gon's philosophy. Live in the moment. Feel, don't think. Don't ask too many questions and just let the Force guide you. I think that ultimately Qui-gon is the key to that.

 

The only question left now is: Will Quigon appear as a ghost in RotJ?

We know the ILM guys stuck a random shot of Hayden in there over Shaw's head, so perhaps after RotS, they'll put LN in there as well?

 

lol it is in my dictionary..


The Rundown Dictionary

 

Thanks guys. No this is not original, but many miss the message Lucas is sending.

From the very beginning Jinn's view is asserted. I think back to some reviews who said the prequel jedi lacked punch. But, everyone liked Jinn.

That is the key, he is a true reflection of where the jedi should be philosophically, but not a perfect example of one in general.

The fact yoda may offer to be his student makes the old green frog more powerful than ever. Too many judge a jedi's power by force potential and lightsaber ability alone, ignoring wisdom and intellect.

On my roleplay board we call this God-moding and the work of the EU has brought me many headaches. If it was about ability alone, Obi-wan Kenobi would be dead at the end of the duel.

I also look at Dagobah as the epitome of the force. teeming with life, yet both life and death and darkness. the cave comes to mind. That is the way of the things, but, Sidious and Plagueis were not, hence the recurring word of unnatural and "creating life" we have been seeing. That is why Anakin was created, to bring the force back into balance.

It has nothing to do with numbers of jedi or sith, but rather ending the sith who perverts life and in turn, has corrupted the natural process of things.

 

I'll just throw my hat into the ring.

I agree that there is a drift between the old Jedi and new Jedi order. After all, by the beginning of the OT, all but of the remaining old Jedi order perished under the dark purge.

Qui Gon Jinn fulfilled his role according to the will of the force. He embraced the force and did what he felt was best in his heart -- training Anakin against the wishes of the council. He basically adopted Anakin as if he were his son. Feelings... Attachment... He disobeyed the wishes of the council.

By the time Qui Gon Jinn died, Anakin was left under the tutelage of an inexperienced Obi Wan, who still abided to the ways of the Jedi Council. Often reminding Anakin to not give into his feelings, the old Jedi order repressed Anakin's emotions... ban on love, marriage...

Anakin's biggest flaw is that he is too emotional. It's only human. Attachment to his mother and Padme fuel the anger inside him when they are hurt and die. The old Jedi order was wrong to repress Anakin's feelings.

That's why in the OT and PT, there is a difference in the Jedi. Obi-Wan becomes more like his master Qui Gon in the OT. He does not force Luke to repress his feelings. Luke beat Vader because of compassion... love of his father was the key to converting Anakin back to the light side. Had Luke repressed his emotions, he would've killed Vader.

 

Yeah the whole point of the PT is to kick the Jedi in the balls. The point of the OT is to show that their balls rebounded better than ever.

That was a bad analogy.

I have to admit I was someone who missed this element of TPM compeletely. i think it was tough to get right away, if not impossible. I thought qui-gon and Obi were like model jedi, that these films were about the heyday of the Jedi in the sense that it was when they were at their peak.

But it's kind of ilke the Lakers last year (bear with me). They had probaby the most revered living coach, a team full of future hall of famers ranging from older rocksteady guys to younger, more agile guys, they got all the way past everybody and they, like their supporters, thought that once again the Lakers were going to take the title home.

When they got ready to play detroit, most people thought it would be a tough series, with an edge to the Lakers.

Then the game played. And you know what? The Pistons actually played basketball. The Lakers were so full of themselves and of their gilded past and their history of overcoming good teams to win championships, and in the process, they wandered around with their heads up their asses.

And lo and behold, the pistons actually bothered to play basketball. They got rebounds. They made their free throws. They actually played defense. All of it was incredibly simple, and yet it was as if they had invented some new game to the Lakers. They were just totally blown out of the water by little more than fundamentals and a cohesive team strategy with everyone doing their part.

The Jedi are like the Lakers. They are so proud of themselves, and have such a history of success, that they refuse to stay vigilant. And that is the biggest flaw someone can make. If you don't evolve and adapt, you lose.

 

Your thoughts are sound...

And by sound I mean they make a noise...

And by make a noise I mean theyre Loud.....

And by loud I mean they are Annoying.......

And by Annoying I mean...



Well, you get the idea