The Force: Why Jinn is crucial to understanding...

but what can we do? I think some people get defensive about what they maybe didn't figure out, and so they just write it off.

i don't want to single anyone out, but from different threads it seems like people are forced into accepting either this or that. it's the way the debate sometimes turns out...

either you distance yourself or accept it... as i see it the truth is somewhere between the wisdom of the order and qui-gon's views.

people would benefit from realizing this. it's not that one side is wrong and the other right...

 

Right, but what GL is explaing doesn't explain QGJ. He dies but doesn't disincorporate.

That's because Qui-gon did not do it intentionally. Obi-wan and Yoda did intentionally cause their bodies to disappear and become one with the Force. Qui-gon was run through and died, without knowing how to do it. But what happened was that he retained his identity, but not his physical one as well. It's all right there in the commentaries for AOTC, ANH, ESB and ROTJ.

Not the same scenario, but now we are to believe and more imporatantly the avg movie goer is to understand that QGJ didn't die afterall, but somehow is having a conversation with Yoda. Yeah right -- can see that happening.

No, Qui-gon did die. So did Obi-wan and Yoda. That's the price one pays for becoming one with the Force consciously. The Jedi philosphy, based in part off of the Buddhist beliefs, is that there is more to life than death. That just cause the physical body dies, doesn't mean that the spirital "body" is dead too. That's partially where the belief of ghosts, spirits and angels come from.

The simplest terminology is that Qui-gon is a ghost, but he cannot appear with a physical form. He is just like Obi-wan in ANH and half of ESB. A voice that the living Jedi can hear.

As GS said its inconsistent and last minute bad storytelling. Its obvious he never thought of this at the time of TPM and is just adding this now.

Lucas has been setting this up since TPM, which he started writing much further back. It's not last minute, you two just don't like it. Once Lucas figured out the roles of Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan Kenobi, he set about explaining how the Force ghost concept works. Starting with the fact that Qui-gon's body didn't disappear, same with Anakin Skywalker's, and going through ROTS.

In addition, OWK at least gave helpful information to Luke, helped him grow and learn and warned him about events. The QGJ does is give advice about the afterlife and love is the answer -- Kumba Ya My Lord and all that hippie crap. Would have been nice if the hippie could have warned them about Palps and Anakin.

I believe that there were things that Qui-gon could do to help and things that he could not, just as Obi-wan didn't bother to tell Luke everything right off the bat.

Ben: "If you choose to face Vader now, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere."

"Even though at some point Yoda and Ben interfered, I eventually decided that they couldn?t connect physically with what Luke was doing. I felt that one of the major issues in the third film is that Luke is finally on his own and has to fight Vader and the Emperor by himself. If you get a sense that Yoda or Ben is there to help him or to somehow influence him, it diminishes the power of the scene."

? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997

Lucas is just running true to form. Qui-gon, like Yoda and Obi-wan, can only do so much. That is part of the story. They couldn't appear to Luke to help him, just as Obi-wan cannot warn the Jedi of Palpatine.

As to Qui-gon's comments on love, they are the key. What brings Darth Vader back from the Dark Side? The love for his son, who has shown him the way. Reminded him of the good man that he once was and can be again.

Yoda isn't doing any of this for Luke, he's doing this to save the galaxy as is Obi-Wan.

Obi-wan and Yoda love Luke, which is why they can reappear as ghosts. Why they can connect to him, just as Anakin does later on.

The QGJ mumbo Jumbo, I suppose if anything shows that Yoda goes into exile becaue he's such a failure that he's unworthy to guide the Jedi any longer and is so worthless that he'd be no help anyway. He's learning from QGJ, who himself is failed jedi how to sacrifice himself for others though QGJ never once sacrificed himself for anyone -- but somehow is going to teach this new cutting edge philosophy to the likes of Yoda.

Qui-gon isn't a failed Jedi. He trained Obi-wan, who is one of the key figures i

 

Correct! They should not be christian brothers, but adherence to the unchanging jedi code is much like the catholic church's inability to embrace change.

I don't think that's a good comparison; no religion on the planet adapts and embraces change as well as the Catholic Church. In fact, the Catholic Church might be a good real-world example of the opposite of the Jedi - the Catholic Church adapts and has persisted for 2000 years, amidst crisis, heresy, and enemies. The Jedi failed to adapt and are unable to deal with these things.

 

When the Catholic Chruch stops butting in on issues of gay marriage and abortion, among others, then I'll say that they've changed.

 

^^ you would make a fine diplomat

 

Yeah I mean GDS and obi-can have pretty much decided they don't want to listen to anything, which I understand, but what can we do? I think some people get defensive about what they maybe didn't figure out, and so they just write it off.

I can see by several of the comments made in here, that there is no point in continuing the debate. The thread has officially been taken over by the QGJ fan club. So I'm bowing out since we pretty much have failed to convince each other of the validity of our arguements. Have fun reinforcing your own point of view.

 

Yeah I mean GDS and obi-can have pretty much decided they don't want to listen to anything, which I understand, but what can we do? I think some people get defensive about what they maybe didn't figure out, and so they just write it off.

I can see by several of the comments made in here, that there is no point in continuing the debate. The thread has officially been taken over by the QGJ fan club. So I'm bowing out since we pretty much have failed to convince each other of the validity of our arguements. Have fun reinforcing your own point of view.

See?

 

obican,
i really don't think that people were trying to make qui-gon the "ideal" jedi. at least that's not how i understood most people discussing him...

that's of course not the case. qui-gon is flawed as well. he does have something to offer though.

the other jedi are also flawed... but they do posess some wisdom that qui-gon didn't. the fact is that they complement each other.

if you want to see the result of the best of qui-gon and the order, you only need to look at obi wan. obi wan was capable of implementing wisdom from both sides in his life...

anakin was torn between the two and ended up being destroyed by the conflict...

 

exactly. as lucas has stated before, the most improtant idea in the saga is balance. The PT is about the different parts which come together int he OT. Obi is the eggs, Yoda is the flour, Qui-gon is the sugar, whatever, and Luke is the cookie.

 

I like that analogy. If anything, that's what the two halves of the saga are about - correcting mistakes. None of the heroes are blameless for the mistakes that are made in the PT, everyone has their faults. But the point is, they are able to correct them in the OT. Just as Luke is able to correct the mistakes of Anakin and redeem him, the Jedi are able to correct their own mistakes. Even "sub-plots" like the romance are corrected - Anakin and Padme have an unsuccessful relationship in the PT, and Han and Leia have a successful one in the OT.

Since when did this become the Qui-Gon Jinn fanclub? I don't think anyone has been saying that Qui-Gon is better than Yoda. What we're saying is that, in the PT, neither is "better" than the other - I don't think Jedi would think in those terms anyway - and neither is flawless, they just see different parts of the complete picture. The training of Luke is the culmination of all the knowledge of the Force they gain in the PT, and of all the mistakes they have corrected.

 

dude marky, exactly.

see I can understand where they are coming from because frankly I left TPM thinking, "You know, that movie didn't really have any of the mysticism that I love. Why didn't qui-gon dissapear? If he comes back as a ghost that will bug me, because he didn't dissapear. But that sucks if he isn;t coming back, I thought he would be like obi-wan helping anakin." And I really jsut thought George dropped the ball, that he hadnt seen his own movies in a while and just sort of reinvented star wars and left that stuff for later and jsut decided not to bother with it.

But now, I think it is actually undeniable that the stuff was written into TPM and that the arc over the three movies was planed out. If you said that when I walked out of TPM I would have said you were nuts. But I get it now. And it makes everything make so much more sense. A lot of the things I wrote off as whimsy, or filler, actualy serves this narrative. I thought the whole symbiance thing in TPM was sort of overplayed, it felt to me like ust squeezing a lesson in. But I realize that they had to make a point of it in that movie because that's the concept you have to understand to really understand the saga.

I also think that Lucas in a weird way has a chance to define the OT in a way it never really got to be. When it seemed there would be more sequels, it had to be kept alive. I think in this movie he seems to be making a real point of tying up and contextualizing the Force and what it means, sort of forcing people who dodn't get it to start getting it.

 

NOCLONE THEORIES said: Yeah I mean GDS and obi-can have pretty much decided they don't want to listen to anything, which I understand, but what can we do? I think some people get defensive about what they maybe didn't figure out, and so they just write it off.

LOL. You are too funny man. It?s too bad after such a lengthy debate you would say that. Comments like these are just cop outs. If you cannot answer the points I make then stand down. But don?t come on and sound like a child at the sandbox. I have offered substantive, film-based answers to yours and other?s points. I have not called you ?GL?s minions? or ignorant. I have accepted your differing opinions and thoughts (most of which are completely made up by you) and offered my own counters to them.

Just because you disagree with me does that mean you ?don?t want to listen to anything??? No. It means you disagree. And that?s totally fine. As long as it is done in a respectful manner there are no problems. People have to learn that others are going to have different ideas from them. It?s a part of life.

Obi Can ? I hope you continue in this thread but if not I look forward to reading more of your insights in the future!

 

When the Catholic Chruch stops butting in on issues of gay marriage and abortion, among others, then I'll say that they've changed.

Since rendering judgments on issues of morality is a primary purpose of the Church, it cannot, by definition, "butt in."

The countless documents released by the Vatican regarding moral and social issues surrounding new technologies, advances in science, and media, not to mention its eagerness to adopt those things for its mission demonstrate that it is a living, adapting body.

The Jedi demonstrate none of those adaptive qualities.

 

I have to admit i dont understand what the two sides are. NOCLONE and GDS almost seem to be saying the same thing. Whats the disparty?
( I havent read the entire thread BTW )

 

I have to admit i dont understand what the two sides are. NOCLONE and GDS almost seem to be saying the same thing. Whats the disparty?
( I havent read the entire thread BTW )

One "side" likes what George Lucas has written for Qui-Gon in RotS, the other "side" doesn't - I think that's the essence of it.

 

GDS you say you are accepting NCT's opnions, yet you say that his evidence is made up.. ... he is basically saying the same thing back to you and you say that he is acting childish... You say he sounds like a child at the sandbox.. Well guess what you are in that sandbox with him

neither one of you will give up your position.. neither one is gonna say the other is right, so you pick and prod around the point rather than discuss it.. How can one of you say that your argument is substantive and the others is not.. they are both based on your opinion, and last i new neither one of you is leading civilization to peace or freedom.. Just cause you may say your points in a "civilized" manner doesnt mean you are not being arrogant..

GDS why not just ignore this thread? its obvious that you are never going to see it the way people who are enthusiastic in this thread do, and they will never see it your way. So why waste time posting here? Or do you like arguing when no common ground will be found? i mean no offense, im just saying come on guys quit bickering about pointless petty stuff. It proves nothing except how stubborn each of you can be.. Why post in this thread when you know your points wont be accepted? Why waste the effort, I'm sure you have better things to do with your time..

Reading this constant back and forth is just a rehash of high school.. perhaps even gradeschool.. Its not worth it guys.. and if you think it is well then i guess its not really my problem.

 

Exactly. And we coudn't really possiby disagree more. But we're just simply not taking about the same movies. I hope after ROTS som things are cleared up for people. It is astonishing how much is going by them.

 

Well I'm in the side that is a Qui Gon fan. I do believe he ties the whole saga together also. What is GDS's take on it? i have to say I'm dubious of Crouching Tiger names on a STAR WARS message board.

 

NATURAL FIST said:GDS you say you are accepting NCT's opnions, yet you say that his evidence is made up.. ...

There is nothing wrong with making ideas up! It?s called creativity. And speculation. I am totally willing to agree with him that Qui DOES IN FACT teach Yoda and Obi Wan. He WILL be the Master of the Force in the end. Do we know that for 100%?? Of course not. But I am willing to accept his speculation and take the argument from there.
he is basically saying the same thing back to you and you say that he is acting childish... You say he sounds like a child at the sandbox.. Well guess what you are in that sandbox with him

Wrong. He said that I just won?t listen to anything. And then said I just don?t like what Lucas is writing. Those are not arguments.

Prior to that he was making real arguments as I was and we were just in disagreement. I never tell people ?you just love whatever GL does.? That type of nonsense are just cop outs for a lack of ability for form an argument. And once people start doing the same to me I just point it out. So it?s not at all the same.

neither one of you will give up your position.. neither one is gonna say the other is right, so you pick and prod around the point rather than discuss it.. How can one of you say that your argument is substantive and the others is not.

Again wrong. Have you been reading this thread??? Prior to his last post, No Clones was making lots of substantive, real arguments. Which is why I took the time to respond to them. If I did not think he was making a good argument I would never have any desire to respond. In fact I only post in threads when I think someone has made an interesting point. It was just the last comment that was not an argument and was immature.

they are both based on your opinion, and last i new neither one of you is leading civilization to peace or freedom.. Just cause you may say your points in a "civilized" manner doesnt mean you are not being arrogant..

If you show me where I was being arrogant, please do. There are pages and pages of me quoting NoCLones and responiding and vice versa and I don?t think either of us were disrespectful or arrogant with each other.

GDS why not just ignore this thread? its obvious that you are never going to see it the way people who are enthusiastic in this thread do, and they will never see it your way. So why waste time posting here? Or do you like arguing when no common ground will be found?

Couldn?t you apply the same thing to yourself? Based on your logic, why are you even posting to me? And of course you could say the same thing to No Clones, but I?m sure you won?t. lol.

i mean no offense, im just saying come on guys quit bickering about pointless petty stuff. It proves nothing except how stubborn each of you can be.. Why post in this thread when you know your points wont be accepted? Why waste the effort, I'm sure you have better things to do with your time..

Like I said, I will do what I do because I choose to. And I will CONTINUE to post wherever and whenever I like. I am sorry to inform you but there will never be consensus and unanimity in a discussion forum with people from all over the world. And there shouldn?t be. People should have discourse on differing ideas. I don?t even know why you would want a monolith for a forum.

Reading this constant back and forth is just a rehash of high school.. perhaps even gradeschool.. Its not worth it guys.. and if you think it is well then i guess its not really my problem.

If it?s not your problem then you have nothing to worry about. If you read NoClone?s posts and think that he has been acting like a grade school kid, I beg to differ. I think everything has been respectful until the last post.

And I also see how you conveniently ignore all the posters who have said they have enjoyed reading this discussion. These philosophical issues don?t have to mean anything to you but don?t discount the others who enjoy discussing them.

So with t

 

i understand GDS, and i will leave you to continue posting.. You are right, it is not my problem, and there is no reason for me to respond.. If i do not like what i read then i dont have to read it, and i do not have to respond to it.

although you have said and/or implied numerous times that you think his ideas are ridiculous, or hilarious... Just because you say something doesnt make it true.

and i also see how you have ignored the fact that there are numerous other posters other than you and NCT in this discussion

 

Wrong. He said that I just won?t listen to anything. And then said I just don?t like what Lucas is writing. Prior to that he was making real arguments as I was and we were just in disagreement.

GreenDestinySword wrote:

"Well this is just poor writing."

 

but that dosen't give people the right to regurgitate campbell and whoevers trendy this week like it is their personal trademark on the world. i try to keep my star wars simple and within the story....going off on these tirades about everything and everyone who inspired mythology and all these WAY TOO DEEP concepts of why things can and can't work in the make believe universe of star wars......{yawn} can we talk about qui gon now? if I needed all these complex{off topic}paragraphs i'd go read a book. if you wanna expound page long lectures...why don't you write a book....and not a post. sheesh! when did this stop being fun guys?

 

oh, boy.

 

No Clone -- I cited a specific story point and called it "bad writing". That does not mean all of GL's writing. Obviously.

And just because I find his points to be funny does not mean he's not making real arguments. Believe me, I would never write a long response unless I thought someone had something meaningful to say.

And this was meaningful but now it has degenerated into nonsense. It's a shame that you view things this way No Clones.

I apologize to the people who were enjoying this debate (even if they were not agreeing with me).

but I am still going to continue to make points to people who seem interested in respectful discussion.

 

ok..

GDS, I have gone back and read many of your posts and for the most part i would agree with you about many things..

First off i dont really like GL.. I am greatful that he has contributed the SW saga to my life, but i like to look beyond what he may or may not have meant when making the movies.. i think the people who agree that QG was important helping Yoda and OWK understand how to "become one with the force" also look at the movies similarly the way i do. I wish that many of the ideas in this thread were consciously fleshed out in the movies, but i think that people are reading into things that may not have been "placed" there but exist in some form nonetheless.

so i encourage you to post, but keep in mind that many people in here are seeing through some of the faultier elements of the movies (in that certain points are not heavily concentrated upon by GL because the story tells itself in many ways and GL doesnt pick up everything..) I think a lot of these types of points have been made previously in this thread.. I think it would benefit everyone greatly to reread this entire thread from time to time, cause sometimes points have been made that have either been glossed over or forgotten, or just plain missed the first time through.