The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie.

"You have to remember: They aren't sperate stories. They're all one big story. Remember how Lucas had to cut 1 script into 3 parts? They are like chapters. 1 long move, not 3 average ones."

GL wrote four known "scripts" before the final ANH script and none of these was cut into three parts. I really doubt he has any enormous hidden script in his desk covering 12, 9, 6 or even just 3 films.

 

>>>"When I first saw Luke use the Force in ESB to telekinetically move his lightsabre my ten-year-old heart revolted within me. I was positively repulsed to see rocks, R2-D2, and an X-wing moved in the same way. This is more like a comic book super-power than a mystical energy."<<<

The problem here is, a more obvious use of TK was originally slated to be in Star Wars. It was in one of the drafts of the script, appeared in the comic, and MAY have been featured in the novel. Thus, your childhood dreams would have been smashed right from the get-go.

Anyway, your hypothesis is flawed - what do you think that Vader choking Motti gimmick was other than a manifestation of telekinesis?

All this stuff that turns you off about Jedi was built up long ago - things like the term Padawan show up in the very early drafts of the Starkiller treatment. Lucas may not know all the details, but it's very clear that the groundwork has been here all along.

 

See my fanfic.

There's a link on my sig.

 

"Anyway, your hypothesis is flawed - what do you think that Vader choking Motti gimmick was other than a manifestation of telekinesis?"

Also doesn't Obi Wan use Telekinisis to make the noise that distracts the stormtroopers at the Tractor beam controls?

 

"Lucas may not know all the details, but it's very clear that the groundwork has been here all along."

I believe it's the other way around, he knows a lot of details like for example someone is called mace windu, valorum etc.
Cause he wrote them down in those scripts 25 years ago. Looking at those scripts btw I still can't find any hints to what esb, Rotj and TPM would be like.

 

sorry. quadruple post.

 

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So good to see a thread with a good discussion uninterrupted by the less fortunate I'd like to add my two cents (and truly, I do not own more money than that).

The one claim Binary_Sunset makes that made me think, was that the Force is de-mystified in "The Empire Strikes Back". And while I agree there are a number of poor choices regarding the Force in the film (mainly, Ben Kenobi returning as a ghost and introducing yet another Jedi), I do feel that the Force is as mysterious in this film as the first. The problem was to keep things exciting, so George kind of had to further explore the Force (unless a completely different script was written, of course). I don't think the choices made were so bad, at all. But I do agree that the story starts to move into the wrong direction with this film.
I love Vader's revelation, though, and feel that it is more than justified in the original film, where it is very clearly implied that there is something more to Luke's father.
But the initial topic, "The Force's portrayal worsens with each movie", I have to agree with.

Actually, Binary, it seems you should have called this thread "The Star Wars saga worsens ... " . For debate's sake, of course

 

Sometimes the script speaks for itself.


>>>>"Anyway, your hypothesis is flawed - what do you think that Vader choking Motti gimmick was other than a manifestation of telekinesis?"

Suddenly Motti chokes and starts to turn blue under Vader's spell.

A spell. Mind control. Make someone think they can't breathe, and they won't breathe.


>>>>Also doesn't Obi Wan use Telekinisis to make the noise that distracts the stormtroopers at the Tractor beam controls?

Ben moves around the tractor beam, watching the stormtroopers as they turn their backs to him. Ben gestures with his hand toward them, as the troops think they hear something in the other hallway. With the help of the Force, Ben deftly slips past the troopers and into the main hallway.

 

So Luke *thinks* he jumps really, really fast out of the carbonite pit?

 

That's in Empire Strikes Back though- the film that stripped the Force of it's mystery, made it a physical thing etc.

 

Anyway, your hypothesis is flawed - what do you think that Vader choking Motti gimmick was other than a manifestation of telekinesis?

That about sums my feelings up, Ive never thought that to be anything other that Telekinesis.

 

I honestly don't see what Binary_Sunset is complaining about.

 

Well, I see the argument. I kind of agree, but still I think that ANH is just a part of the picture. Plus, it's not like venerable Jedi just spend their time making stuff float and jumping really high. Maybe in a battle, but that's what that stuff is there for. The "mind trick" and all that is just there for sneaking around. George wants it that way. So the bottom line, I guess, is that you may not like it, but that's how it is. It's not "wrong" or an "error," because GL wanted it to be that way. I'm sure there are tons of other stories out there with spiritual powers that little/no influence on physical objects. That is what you're looking for, anyway. I see your point, anyway.

 

I have written a fan fic. which I'd like you to put on your site, Binary.

 

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/359/359431p1.html

I thought this was an interesting read over at Filmforce. Some of the opinions noted by Binary Sunset and Stardude seem to also reflect here in this review.



Review of Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones
Stiff performances, crappy scripting, and uneven visual effects collide to make Attack of the Clones a diverting-but-muddled mess.

May 14, 2002 -
"Francis [Coppola] really tried to do things with his power. He made movies with Wim Wenders, produced The Black Stallion, produced George Lucas. George built Lucasland up there [in Marin County], his own private little duchy ? which was producing what? A bunch of pap."
? John Milius, from Easy Riders, Raging Bulls by Peter Biskind



Not the Atomic Stink Bomb many feared it would be, Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones has it pretty easy.

To soothe the scars of abuse heaped on audiences by the impotent direction and blatant racial stereotyping of Episode I - The Phantom Menace, the only criteria this installment really had to meet was: be better than its predecessor. Not a difficult task, and Attack of the Clones is an improvement over the tragedy witnessed three years ago. Alas, "better than Phantom Menace" still doesn't mean Clones is a particularly good movie.

As much as one wants to like AotC, it is the cinematic equivalent of that problem child we've all encountered at some point in our lives: no matter how deserving of love we may intellectually sense them to be, emotionally, it's really tough to like the kid because he or she is such a jackass. Episode II is a rudderless movie filled with non-acting from great actors, uneven pacing, inconsistent visual effects (some are wondrous, but many still look artificial and cartoony ? I don't understand why most of the backgrounds in this "galaxy far, far away" look like they're drawn by sub-par students in some community water color class), all driven-on by clunky exposition and an unbreakable heart of stone. This movie is a zombie: it is alive, but it has no life.

This being said, writer/producer/director George Lucas & Co. have clearly gone through a great deal of effort to address numerous missteps made the last time around: the tapestry of improvements brought to the table here unfold with the succinct precision of a well-kept "to do" list. Episode I's dreary, drab aesthetic is replaced by deep and vivid colors (except for some of those odd backgrounds mentioned above). TPM's lackadaisical editing is substituted with Ben Burtt's much smoother assembly. AotC's meandering plot still evokes TPM's relatively unfocused narrative, but Clones offers a faster kind of tedium. Across the board, its shortcomings are nowhere near as remarkable as its progenitor. Even so, the fixers didn't go far enough, and there are still problems. Cancerous problems, relentlessly metastasizing throughout the SW theatrical franchise.

The indicators are insidious and inescapable. Chief among them: Attack of the Clones, like Phantom Menace before it, is a cold, cold movie. It skillfully touches on countless emotional pressure points, but never pulls us into its universe, or completely involves us with the personalities populating it. Much like a marginal high-school play, or an over-produced Cecil B. DeMille movie from long ago, AotC seems content to skirt along the perimeters of emotional resonance, but never commits to taking us on a journey of any substance. It is rarely involving, rarely rousing, and never stirring. It is deliberate and mechanical, and little more.

There are two primary factors fueling this anomaly. Firstly, and what few people realize, is that the generally-preferred Episode IV - A New Hope (the "original" Star Wars movie) and its sequel (Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back) were profoundly impacted by individuals no longer working with Lucas. One of them was a man named Gary Kurtz, who produced American Graffiti and the first two Star Wars films.

By the time Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi rolled aroun

 

That review is just another example of someone criticising the prequels and letting the OT off for the same supposed flaws. For example, 3PO had just as many "lame wisecracks" during the escape from Bespin as he did in AOTC. So why is one okay but not the other?

I'm anxious to hear from Binary, though. How did he think the force was worsened in the latest episode?

 

First of all, that's a great review. Thanks for posting it!

DarthHomer, that's an interesting question. I didn't care for AOTC at all, but what about its portrayal of the Force? I'll have to watch AOTC again and mull it over.

 

Binary, if nothing else I think you'll find that at the very least the Force's portrayal in AOTC is a VAST improvement over TPM.

 

Binary, I respect your opinions but I must say that I feel sorry for you.

 

DarthHomer, there is something in AOTC that takes the Force down yet another notch. It was staring me in the face and I can't believe I didn't instantly think of it when you asked your question. I can't tell you today, though. Spoilers, you know. Wait until tomorrow.

 

I don't quite see what Binary's gripe is either.

In ANH Obi-Wan tells Luke that The Force "is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." The fact that The Force binds the galaxy together indicates some sort of physical interaction. A Jedi manipulating that energy field which binds the galaxy together to lift objects is consistent with that explanation.

An energy field which binds the galaxy together would seem to have a lot more to do with the ability to move objects by manipulating that energy field, than it would by somehow interacting with weak minds and influencing them.

I find it amusing how a scene in the novel where Vader levitates a teacup is casually dimissed as irrelevant, yet the world "spell" in the script is taken to be "proof" that Motti is under some sort of mind control. The fact that the "teacup" scene is in the novel indicates that interaction with physical objects was part of the concept of The Force all along. Maybe it was even part of an earlier script.

A "spell" does not exclude any physical effects -- mythology is ripe with magical spells used not only to control the mind of a person, but to curse them with actual physical effects, or to create a ball of fire or bolt of lightning. The scripts also refer to lightsabers as "laser swords" at times, so I wouldn't be so quick to assume that "Vader's spell" implies controlling Motti's mind to make him THINK that he can't breathe. I never took it him only thinking that he couldn't breathe.

I also don't really see the distinction between Obi-Wan appearing as a ghostlike form in ESB and ROTJ, and Obi-Wan speaking to Luke after he dies in ANH. In both cases, only Luke can seen and/or hear him. Maybe Luke just THINKS he can see him. ;-)

 

i always thought of the force as a force field... like magnestism or eletromagnetic rays... and some ppl are able to bend and affect this field... thats why i really dislike the lightnings.. the power is around us not inside us

 

the force is whatever the great bearded wearer of flannel wants it to be. if you don't like it, don't watch it.

much of the argument that presented in this thread is simple pedantics, and imo it is just silly. don't like the force? fine. but don't base your argument against the way the force is presented (and keep in mind that it is the only way that the force can be presented, since it is a lucas creation and lucas has control of his franchise) on pedantics.