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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The fourth installment of the 2004 Jedi Draft!!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth-Horax, Jul 8, 2004.

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  1. SecondBest

    SecondBest Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Hey, Horry!

    Nice argument, Horry. :p
     
  2. EMPEROR_WINDU

    EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Actually Form VII is the ultimate form of sabre combat, Form V is good...but if both were used by equal opponents...VII is better


    I will leave a rebuttal up to SB whenever he is available
     
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  3. JansonYellowAces

    JansonYellowAces Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Yoda has never displayed his true power.... And Sidious's sabre combat skills?

    First, how do you know?

    Two, Darth Maul could not see Darth Sidious?s lightsaber when he used it. Where as you and I, both untrained in the use of the force clearly saw Yoda fighting Dooku.

    He doesnt fight with a sabre very much....but Lightside>DarkSide and these two are the Masters of their respected sides....

    The Lightside is not stronger then the Darkside my friend, they are both the force.

    Nor does Yoda, in fact Yoda has drawn lightsaber only three times more then Sidious has.

    And remember, the EU overexagerrates Force abilities....it always seems to

    Still, an equal level of canon with the movies. Any act using the Force in the expanded universe is on the same level of canon until it is shown to be incorrect by the movies, whether you like it or not.

    From what we've seen, we have no evidence that Yoda couldn't absorb Palps lightning...But the fact remains that Yoda has absorbed lightning, and Palps uses lightning....

    The way he obviously struggled with Dooku?s much weaker lightning, who knows.

    And Infinities isnt to be taken seriously, so there's no point in citing it as a valid source

    I didn?t cite it as a valid source, I said it was interesting to note.

    The greatest use of Force power in a SW movie so far is Yoda's absorbing of Tyranus's lightning....

    That?s open to debate, though nothing shown in the movies comes any where close

    And Yoda had NO experience with Sith Lightning, and he did it easily

    Watch the movie closely. Watch the effort it take Yoda to not absorb, but deflect the energy, in fact it could be argued that Vader?s outright absorbing of a blaster bolt in ESB was a greater show of the force. As you may know, a burst of lightning and a blaster bolt take the same level of skill to absorb according to D20.

    Saying Yoda is an overrated PT Jedi Master is like saying Luke is just a farm boy

    I never said that once?

    And Luke Skywalker is a farmboy.

    Actually Form VII is the ultimate form of sabre combat, Form V is good...but if both were used by equal opponents...VII is better

    That is not quite so?

    It depends on the force user. Why would Vader use Form VII if Form V fit him better, allowing him to break Mace Windu even worse. For the average Jedi, yes Vaapad is better, but not for all.

    And yes, Darth Vader is better then Mace Windu.




    I am also going to bed.
     
  4. EMPEROR_WINDU

    EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2002
    I'm too tired to argue against your remarks right now JYA... EU is a bit overblown when compared to the movies(to make it more exciting) i dont discount it....Infinities isnt interesting to note because Maul also dueled Vader in something Infinities and only lost because of his overconfidence...


    Vader's suit makes him immobile, in the movies...and this would kill him against Windu

    So, Mace Windu is better than Darth Vader, in a one on one fight


    bed time

    Please at least read what I say before you copy, paste and italicize it....I said, by equal Jedi... not every Jedi

    Insider magazine had an article on this, Form VII>any other form when used by a near equal
     
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  5. JansonYellowAces

    JansonYellowAces Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Vader's suit makes him immobile, in the movies...and this would kill him against Windu

    So, Mace Windu is better than Darth Vader, in a one on one fight


    ROTFLMAO! :D

    Compared with Vader, Windu is a punk.

    Nothing, but a punk.

    Tell me why he is dead, and Vader lives?

    Please at least read what I say before you copy, paste and italicize it....I said, by equal Jedi... not every Jedi

    That's plain wrong, as Suzuki has stated.

    Insider magazine had an article on this, Form VII>any other form when used by a near equal

    Then again, Windu is not Vader's near equal.

     
  6. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    And yet Vader is no near equal of Mace's. You say Vader is highly immobile in his suit as if you haven't seen the scene at the end of the ESB fight when Vader started using true Form V. Fact is that Form V is the most powerful form in the hands of a Force user as powerful as Vader. For him to use Vaapad would actually be a downgrade in ability, because it wouldn't fully harness his ridiculous Force strength in the way that Form V does. One on one, Vader would win. Even if you give Mace the slight saber edge, Vader's huge power edge is irreconcilable, especially because he uses Form V which is all about the Enhance Attributes ability.

    Vader would take it.

    Without even spoilers, we know that Windu didn't survive a war that Vader survived. That should clue you in. Hell, if you read Shatterpoint, Mace lost to some untrained loser in Kar Vastor. I'd love to see him try and take Vader, pfft. Oh, and to prove that PT movie Jedi are overrated, Vastor beat Mace and he's never even freaking drafted, because no one would give him the time of day. According to the system we have now, Vastor would be draft pick 3. And of course that would make no sense.
     
  7. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo

    CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Infinities isnt interesting to note because Maul also dueled Vader in something Infinities and only lost because of his overconfidence...

    Do keep in mind that in that comic Darth Vader is rather worn from his injuries and age. He was facing a much younger and vigorous oppenant in that comic. A younger and healthier Darth Vader would have wiped the floor with Darth Maul.

    In fact, Darth Maul, a Dsrk Lord of the Sith mind you, lost to a Jedi Padawan! How sad and pathetic can you get after something like that?
     
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's also been stated, by Lucas himself no less, that Vader is the greatest saber duelist who ever lived.

    Vader honed his skills to make himself the best. If you look at him in ESB, he toys with Luke one-handedly as if it's a waste of his time. When Luke hits him, Vader finally turns serious and eliminates Luke in all of two seconds.

    Vader is an unstoppable force.




    And here's a clue to prove that Palpatine's lightning is greater than Dooku's. Dooku's lightning didn't even singe Anakin, if you recall. Palpatine's lightning, once [i]he[/i] turned serious, did greater damage against Vader.

    For one, the lightning literally [i]sparked[/i] off of Vader's armor. Secondly, Vader's bones were visible due to the lightning's insanely high voltage. Finally, Vader's helmet (made of pure durasteel) had entire holes blasted into it from the lightning. Now, the only way electricity can blast into metal is if it is of an excessively high voltage and wattage because metal is a conductor.

    If Yoda so visibly struggled against Dooku's lightning, then it's quite obvious he'd fail against Palpatine's. Remember Yoda's strained warning in ROTG... [i]"Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor."[/i]. Important, no?

    The theme of the PT is to show darkness overpowering the greatest of light. Vader and Palpatine overshadow the entire Jedi Order... even the best of them. The point of the OT is to show the new hope restoring Vader to the light, and showing the Chosen One overpowering the Emperor and destroying darkness.

    The Sith did overpower all of the Jedi, until the greatest of them--Vader--turned against his master.
     
  9. Corran10584

    Corran10584 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2002
    Wow, bringing in the EU big guns!!!

    =D= =D= =D=

    I agree that Yoda is slightly overrated in the Draft, but he still one of the best to ever live. The fact is, that while people continually talk about his 900 years of experience, it's not like he was slashing his saber around for the entire time. People like Luke and Vader were true warriors, able to beat down their enemies with tremendous skill. Yoda's power in the Force still makes him an incredible Jedi Master, but he's just no unbeatable. Personally, this is how my ranking goes, as far as this Draft goes:

    1. Luke
    2. Sidious
    3. Vader
    4. Yoda
    5. Thon
    6. Mace
    7. Nomi
    8. Obi-Wan
    9. Ulic
    10. Malak


    Again, this is just my view, I know other people probably don't see it this way. But yes, I put Thon above Mace, that wasn't a mistake.

    Anyways, I'm off for the night. Don't want to miss Conan O'Brien ;)

    ~Corran
     
  10. GenMadine

    GenMadine Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2002
    In fact, Darth Maul, a Dsrk Lord of the Sith mind you, lost to a Jedi Padawan! How sad and pathetic can you get after something like that?

    Yes. And yet, Maul beat Anakin Skywalker. Who is superior at the same stage of training that Obi Wan was at when he beat Maul, yet in our draft - THIS DRAFT - Anakin losed to Maul. Bad, bad call.

    I agree that Yoda is slightly overrated in the Draft, but he still one of the best to ever live. The fact is, that while people continually talk about his 900 years of experience, it's not like he was slashing his saber around for the entire time.

    I have always hated this argument, not wielding a lightsaber for 900 years. Fine, he was not using a lightsaber for his entire 900 years. But, Corran, HE IS 900 YEARS OLD. He has AT LEAST 4 to 5 lifetimes worth of experience over all other Jedi. We meet him at the end of his life, his last 40 years. He was swinging lightsabers around for, i'd say, at least 700 of those 900 years. That is a lot more experience than all the other Jedi we know, and why he deserves the #1 spot here in the draft. And if any Jedi should be undefeatable here, it should be him.

    And I agree that Yoda is not unbeatable. NO JEDI is unbeatable. Everyone of them gets beaten, at one time or another. We have seen it, or we will have to see it, otherwise they would all be in the OT.

    Madine out
     
  11. ghost-jedi

    ghost-jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2004
    Just vote for my team...they're better...trust me!


    No they're not, No they're not!
     
  12. ghost-jedi

    ghost-jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2004
    I can't believe there has been such blasphemous talk about Yoda. Allow me to throw my two cents in. This is how the os describes the fight between The Master and the former padawan, and while you read you will find not find Yoda struggling:


    Yoda and Dooku engaged in battle. First, their powers in the Force were put to test, as Dooku attempted to crush the tiny Jedi Master with hurled debris. Yoda easily deflected such assaults, and even repulsed Dooku's Force lightning attacks. The contest came down to a duel of lightsabers. In a climactic battle, the two master combatants displayed amazing speed and agility. Yoda, empowered by the Force, leaped through the air, twirling and battering at Dooku's defenses. Dooku only managed to escape by using the Force to once again jeopardize Anakin and Obi-Wan. Knowing that Yoda's nobility would buy him time, Dooku fled as the ancient Jedi Master saved his younger compatriots.


    Furthermore as far as the whole he was not swinging his lightsaber all those years arguements, two things:
    1) He taught 98% of all Padawans how to use the lightsaber, which is more difficult than a Master refining the skill. So nearly all Jedi's education and skill can be attributed to Yoda.

    2) He defeated the Dark Jedi from Bpfassh. The group was going deeper and deeper into the heart of the gffa until they met Yoda. And the Dark Jedi from Bpfassh was so powerful that his dark side presence was able to mask that of Yoda's light side, so he definetly was a formidable opponent.

    Furthermore, after ep III, I have a feeling there will be alot more eu about Yoda, Mace, Sidious and Dooku, that will show how truely experienced they are.
     
  13. bburditt

    bburditt Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2004
    I use the 900 years things to also back-up that Yoda's force knowledge is huge.
     
  14. ghost-jedi

    ghost-jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2004
    I think that I should win this battle as I though both teams are close, I have two intangiables that should put me over the top:

    1) The first is Battle Meditation, while it would not work vs Sidious, it would work against the over team, as well as propel my team.

    2)The second is cohesion, as my team is far more cohessive than Horax's who is part Sith, part Dark Jedi, part Jedi that no one can get along w/, part Jedi. Now I have a very strong Master-Padawan connection:

    Yoda --> Ki-Adi-Mundi, who was also his right-hand Cerean on the council

    &

    Acra Jeth --> Cay Qel-Droma & Tott Doneeta

    And look at what Obi-Wan's reaction following the death of his master, now this is how hard my Jedi will defend their former Masters.

    Plus throw in Hoth who's life mission was to destroy the Sith, I have a far more unified team, which should be the deciding factor.
     
  15. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    I agree with Corran's list. My argument, in no way, is to say that Yoda is a slouch of a Jedi--I'm merely saying that he isn't the best, and neither is Mace. But they are both really, really close. I think Corran's list is near perfect.

    My team should win for this reason- the power and experience edge that my team has is HUGE(Vader, Qel-Droma, and Sadow were all arguably the most powerful Force users of their respective eras), and the saber skill edge that his team has may even go to me because Vader is the best duelist before Luke to ever live and that is canon fact, confirmed by George Lucas himself. Plus, my duelists go across the board whereas Mace and Depa are the only true wizards with the blade that SB can claim to have. Sadow has about as equal blade experience as we've seen out of Koon, plus the fact that he was at war with Jedi would imply a bit more on that end. So according to Lucas and/or according to the judges of this draft, in saber skill:

    Vader>Mace(indisputable)
    Ulic>Depa

    And Koon has the slight saber edge, but Sadow again has the huge power edge, so that's just not enough. Remember, Luke had more seen saber experience than Sidious in ROTJ when he was getting toasted. With this huge of an edge, Bandon is my one man mop up crew, eating most of the backfield for lunch, as only Kolar can claim to be able to hold this Jedi slayer off. My team definetly should take this one, but it was a great match.

    A definite win in cohesion cannot save SB from my two definite advantages in power and experience and a Lucas confirmed slight advantage in saber skill.
     
  16. bburditt

    bburditt Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Tatooine Conference

    Match 1: Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Depa Billaba, Agen Kolar, Bultar Swan, Voolvif Monn

    vs.

    Darth Vader, Ulic Qel-Droma, Naga Sadow, Darth Bandon, Marka Ragnos, Shira Brie

    Well, like I said earlier, I've voted on this match before, if you want to see my reasoning, it is on page 31 with 50 posts per page, so check there.

    The Winner: Dude, Where's My Lightsaber?


    Alderaan Conference

    Match 1: Yoda, Ki-Adi Mundi, Hoth, Arca Jeth, Cay Qel-Droma, Tott Donetta

    vs.

    Darth Sidious, Darth Malak, Sora Bulq, Juhani, A?Sharad Hett, Sharad Hett

    Horax does have a really powerful team, and I think if Saber didn't have Luke, and Ghost doesn't have Yoda, I would probably vote for Horax.

    I think Ghost's experience, both with the saber and with the force, is enough to take this match. He's got great connections, plus with BM, it's only a bonus. Not to mention, Hoth was a brtilliant strategist, so that wouldn't hurt in this match.

    Without Yoda, however, Sidious and Malak would probably go on a little rampage in this match.

    The Winner: Ghost Recon Force


    ON WITH THE DRAFT!!!
     
  17. NiktosRule

    NiktosRule Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2001
    Naga Sadow's incredible power really couldn't come into play in a battle like this though. What is going to make a star supernova during the battle and kill all the fighters including himself? Anything else he could do probably would have little impact in this fight. Hurling objects with the force would be repelled by everyone on SecondBest's team. Anything else he could would probably require time and time he would not have. Naga is a super powerful being but he can't use his tremendous powers in these drafts. That is why I generally think he is somewhat of a hindrance.


    I'm glad to see that more than just Janson and myself think Sidious is better than Yoda. Also I'm finally glad to see that some other people think Mace is slightly overrated. I've been saying that since the beginning.

    About Vader being the best with a Saber the movies clearly contradict that in my opinion. Obviously we don't how good Vader is yet but that won't be known until ROTS. From the movies I'd say he is better than Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and maybe Luke.
     
  18. GenMadine

    GenMadine Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2002
    Ghost-
    "After Episode III" comments

    HAVE NO PLACE HERE

    regardless of no spoilers or not. No infereneces, hints, asides or any sort of "Wait and see" sort of comments are permitted, allowed, or wanted here on this board.

    Why does this have to be reiterated every draft?
    This is not the first time this draft this has had to be said, either.

    Please respect the No-Ep. III boards.

    Thanks.

    Great Semi-finals, may the best team and SecondBest win.

    Madine out
     
  19. SuperVader

    SuperVader Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 2002
    He taught 98% of all Padawans how to use the lightsaber, which is more difficult than a Master refining the skill. So nearly all Jedi's education and skill can be attributed to Yoda.

    The problem with this statement is that 98% of the Jedi he taught were wiped out in the purge...

    Corran your list is iffy but pretty accurate but Thon isn't as high...I believe that Nomi surpasses him even. Sort of like the student surpassing the teacher...As well I believe Mace would beat Thon it would be close but Mace is an excellent lightsaber wielder and is fairly powerful.

    As well Vader will always be ahead of Sidious in my opinion and in most people's opinion because we have seen this match and Vader won...well he survived a bit longer than Sidious anyway which I would consider a win...

    Excellent Semi-final matches btw this draft has been very good.

    Hope to be part of the next one.

     
  20. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    The fact that someone is superpowerful makes it harder for his attacks to be repelled. The fact that Naga Sadow had unbelievable skill in his supernova thing doesn't mean that it is the only thing in his arsenal. Could Dooku repel all of Yoda's Force attacks, if Yoda did any? Probably not. And Madine, well all know you want SB to win, I know that I caught it the first two times you said it.
     
  21. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    Here's Burd's comments from the earlier time in which this happened before our new judge(with non bolded comments from me)

    Well, I'm not gonna lie to you, this is a very close match. I just want to say that both GMs have put together two very very solid teams, and if I could call tie, I would.

    The Winner: Tie Game




    Of course, I'm only joking.

    Let's start with cohesion, shall we?

    To say that Suzuki's team is more cohesive, is like saying Michael Jordan was good at Baseball, it just doesn't work. I'm not saying they (The Avenging Blade) would break out and start slaughtering each other, I just don't think they are as cohesive as the impressive light-side team with the excellent leader in Mace. Also, Depa almost killing Mace I feel is not too affecting in this match, as many people have said, it was something out of her control. But, like I said, cohesiveness is used as a tie-breaker for me, so let's keep in our heads that SecondBest has the edge in cohesion shall we?


    I'll grant that one. Cohesion goes to SB.

    First of all, power-wise, no question about it, TAB rocks the house in every aspect. So, there's no point in duscussing this topic any longer.

    Agreed.

    Saber experience: Explanation: I tend not to
    place "saber-on-saber experience" that much more important as other types of battle experience, i.e. Geonosis, so, that's my opinion as to what "saber experience" means.


    WHAT?! You think in a saber on saber battle, that saber to blaster experience equates? Fine then-but that means that blaster blocking forms are equal in value to duelist ones. That's in essence equating Form I or Form III to Form II(Dooku's) or Form VII. And as we've seen from the two saber to saber specialists (Dooku, Mace) saber to saber oriented Jedi ness owns all others in saber to saber combat.

    Vader killed a lot of Jedi, but how much does the rest of this team really have? Ulic has fought with a Saber on a few occasions, but, other than that, the rest of the team, is all power. Bandon fought Revan, got his ass whipped, Sadow is inarguably all power, Ragnos hid in that war he survived in, and then hid for another 100 years without have his rule disputed. Shira has little experience, but who's to say she's good? Besides Vader and Ulic, not much experience with the blade here.

    Sadow is not all power, because he was in a Jedi vs. Sith war, which counts for at least four Geonosis', plus he fought Ludo Kressh, a ridiculously powerful Sith, for control of Sith forces with the blade. And you compare that with facing down 15 droids at once? Diffucult, but not as diffucult and not by a long shot. Bandon was in Ruusan, which was better experience than Geonosis, as well as his Revan duel. Brie had saber/saber duels twice, which is more than any one of SB's team can say at the moment, unless you count Mace's fight with Vos as a real duel, which lasted maybe 15 seconds.

    For D,WML? however, each and every member of the team, has experience wielding a blade. They were all in Geonosis, and then there are some, who's experience goes much more beyond that. They've all had to use the saber to stay alive. SB's team gets my nudge for saber experience.

    And the only one of mine who hasn't had to do the same on screen is Ragnos, and him being a DLotS means he found some way of eliminating rivals. It's a double standard to assume saber experience for Yoda and not assume some sort of combat experience for Raggie here.


    Now, for Saber skills, it, to me, is almost as obvious as power. And, it goes to D,WML?

    The top three of SB's team is much better than the top three of TAB. Mace > Vader
    ,

    Wrong. Vader> Anybody with the blade, except perhaps Sid and Luke. Form V+Chosen One=Darn near unbeatable. Mace has not shown any indication of being ridiculously wizardly, whereas the fact that the Jedi became extinct points to mad skills for Vader. Mace could hardly beat his own pupil, or Vastor for that matter. Vaapad is good, but has serious flaws-
     
  22. NiktosRule

    NiktosRule Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2001
    Suzuki it was Piell who took out 7 terrorists not Koon. Koon pretty much won the Stark Hyperspace wars for the Republic.

    EDIT: Suzuki, Mace lost to Vastor in hand-to-hand combat without the use of weapons and the force. Something Vastor specializes in and something Jedi do not. Also his plan was to lose the fight anyway. When Mace used the force in there second encounter he killed Vastor in a matter of seconds. Vader would've lost to Vastor in hand-to-hand with no saber and without using the force as well.

    SuperVader are you serious when you say that Vader beat Sidious? He grabbed the guy from behind for god's sake. That wasn't a real fight. What makes it even worse is that he still died despite grabbing him from behind. To say that Vader is better than Sidious based off there encounter in ROTJ which wasn't a real fight is ridiculous.
     
  23. bburditt

    bburditt Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Corran, your list confuses me. Did you vote for Vader over Sidious last draft? Or was that SB and Horax who ended up voting on that match.
     
  24. ghost-jedi

    ghost-jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2004
    The problem with this statement is that 98% of the Jedi he taught were wiped out in the purge...


    Yeah but was it Yoda's fault that too sure of themselves, they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.
     
  25. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    My bad, Niktos. If I could still edit, I would.
     
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