The Furgan Paradox

Near-human is propaganda, wrong translation of the actual term, to be using it is saying thrawn is less than human.

 

Think of it this way:
Is Thrawn a Human? Well, no. He's a Chiss. He's got red eyes and blue skin, and they're not painted on or contact lenses. Other than that, does he look human? Well, yes. Hence, "near-human". There ARE human sub-species, like Corellians, Lorrdians, and Alderaanians, and then there are near-humans, like Zeltroths (last species in the EGtAS, not sure on the spelling offhand), Chiss, and others.

PrinceXizor:
Yes, I have that. My Star Wars research library is rather extensive, consisting of:
Every book in the NJO series thus far (there are 8)
All 9 X-wing books
the Corellian Trilogy
The Han Solo Trilogy
The Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy
'Jedi Search' (book 1 in the JAT)
All the "Tales From.." books (Bounty Hunters, Empire, New Republic, Mos Eisley, and Jabba's Palace)
The Classic Han Solo Adventures (by Brian Daley)
The Classic Lando Calrissian Adventures
Splinter of the Mind's Eye
All the Essential Guides (Vehicles/Vessels, Characters, Chronology, Alien Races, Planets/Moons, Weapons/Tech, Droids)
The Star Wars Encyclopedia
The Star Wars Visual Dictionary
The Art of 'A New Hope'
A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, 3rd Edition
'The Phantom Menace' screenplay
All 8 volumes of the Rogue Squadron comics
Other Star Wars comic collections, including:
- Mara Jade: The Emperor's Hand
- Union
- Shadows of the Empire
- Shadows of the Empire: Evolution
- Bounty Hunters anthology
West End Games sourcebooks for the RPG, including:
- The DarkStryder Campaign
- Flashpoint: Brak Sector
- Gamemaster Handbook
- Second Edition rulebook/sourcebook
- Galaxy Guide 12: Aliens
- The Kathol Rift
- Stock Ships
- Wanted by Cracken
- Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
- Star Wars Planets Collection
- Death Star Technical Companion
- The Far Orbit Project
- Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi
- Corporate Sector Sourcebook
- Planets of Shadows of the Empire
- Platt's Smugger's Guide
- Jedi Academy Trilogy Sourcebook
- No Disintigrations
- Instant Adventures
- Classic Campaigns
- Secrets of the Sisar Run

And I've got about 6 more WEG sourcebooks coming in the mail right now.

 

PrinceXizor...
"You serious Bubba ? Nyke or Myke ?..."

All of the available kooky American puns have been nearly exhauted with the shoe manufacturing joke. However, if you wear the Nyke, you can be like Myke.

 

I was not trying to insult you... I was just thinking I could help you if you had not the EGtPaM... Not everyone is as well furnished as you're. (Beginning by me...)

 

"Think of it this way:
Is Thrawn a Human? Well, no. He's a Chiss. He's got red eyes and blue skin, and they're not painted on or contact lenses."

blue skin is caused by the mineral in the soil on chiss homeworld, that had gotten into there skin by ingestion of food and water on the planet. Chiss is just a racial/homeplanet/or human genetic term term, like Ainii(white japanese), or black, or brown, or african-american. is the skin painted on? are they wearing contact lens?

Albinos have red eyes, it also exists quite rare on earth on non albinos, variation let's out other colors.

still human.


"Other than that, does he look human? Well, yes. Hence, "near-human"."

Near-human does not mean looks human, it means, "Near humans are ancestors of human evolution, that are not quite evolved into homo-sapiens humans, they are pre-homo sapien. Such as Cromagnon man, autralian pithicus, etc. they are near humans"


"There ARE human sub-species, like Corellians, Lorrdians, and Alderaanians, and then there are near-humans, like Zeltroths (last species in the EGtAS, not sure on the spelling offhand), Chiss, and others."

sub-humanity" by definition is translation for mutated human beings that survived the mutations but have weird mutations that serve no purpose. Then the mutation is spread from generation to generation. See the coruscant underworld for refrence.

Correllions lorrdians and alderrans are people who come from there planet's they are no less human or mutated than any you or I.

 

OK, thanks for the precision, Genghis...

 

Argh... Syntax, in your book list I see a RPG sourcebook 'The Planets of Shadows of the Empire'... Is there anything mentionned about Falleen in it ???

 

I was not implying that Corellians and Lorrdians and the like aren't human -- merely that they're referred to as if they're a species, when in fact they ARE "humans". That term merely describes their homeworld. Like saying "I'm Italian". Am I any less of a human being?

I really didn't think that this would degenerate into a moral/ethical debate. EVERY SOURCE I've got on the subject (check out my extensive list, about 3 posts up) says that Thrawn is NOT human, but is a Chiss, which is a distinct alien race. it's listed as such in the Guide to Alien Species. What more do you want? Christ, it's not like I'm trying to be racist here against fictional creatures in a fictional universe. I'm merely stating facts, as established by OTHER writers, in OTHER sources.

 

Xizor:
Falleen are listed in the Guide to Alien Species, but not the SotE Planets Guide (which only deals with, fittingly enough, the planets). Do you wanna know anything in particular? I'll see if I can scrounge it up for you.

 

I meant, the Planet Falleen. I know quite a lot about the species, but the planet remains mysterious to me...

 

I'm not going into a moral or ethical arguement, I'm just stating the real fact, that the authors got there definitions incorrect, compared to the real factual scientific Anthrolopoligical definitions(which I'm slowy going through education to be, so I know what It says in the Anthro books.)

But authors say doesn't necesserly mean they are stating facts. Misinformed use for a word yes, but not a fact. So to misuse a word is to be saying they are something that they are not. Which is an insult, that's why I said it was imperial propaganda, but for all we know this bigotry has lasted a very long time. So maybe it's old republic propaganda that the empire just spread even further?

 

Are you kidding? How many times do multiple authors need to say "Thrawn isn't human" before you understand that Thrawn isn't human? He just LOOKS human. Anzati are a good example -- they LOOK human for the most part, but they are a distinct alien race. The Chiss are the same way. What part of this don't you understand?

Xizor: Sorry, no data on Falleen (as a planet) in the SotE Planet's Guide. It covers Rodia, Vergesso Asteroid Cluster, and 2 other planets, if I remember correctly. Nothing on Falleen, though. Sorry.

 

"Are you kidding? How many times do multiple authors need to say "Thrawn isn't human" before you understand that Thrawn isn't human? He just LOOKS human."


I would have used to believe he wasn't human, except that Gamer 5, says chiss come from human colonizers. They adapted to the planet, they did not evolve(if they did, they would be called evolved humans, diverged from homo-sapiens, not near humans). They are also So they are a race, like the anii. the name Chiss is just a contraction of the name of ther planet.

But to say he's near-human is saying he's less than human which would be incorrect use of the term. To incorrectly use the word is to totally misinterpret the meaning, and state oppinions and not facts.

Now evolution can't be done in a centuries, it takes several 1000 millenia. so chiss can't be much more than humans. unless they were working with genetic manipulation to change the race and genes drastically.

"Anzati are a good example -- they LOOK human for the most part, but they are a distinct alien race. The Chiss are the same way. What part of this don't you understand?"

Unlike Chiss, anzati are definatly not human, they have "Parrelel evolution" on another planet, which caused them to evolve looking like humans but they are not humans.
They are a completly different species.

 

Hope sometime in the future we'll know more about it... (Do I dream if I think they should make it in SW Galaxies, along with the Falleens as a playable species ??? I guess I do...)

 

Who's to say that the Chiss aren't the same way as Anzati, following a path close to human evolution? Maybe the Chiss were brought to the human colonies by human slavers/invaters/traders/etc, and they lived there?

I just call it like I see it -- the Zahn books themselves, the Essential Guide to Characters, the Essential Guide to Alien Species, the Essential Chronology, and the Star Wars Encyclopedia, along with the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, all list Thrawn and his people as ALIENS. Non-human. Near-human (like Anzati) but NON-human nontheless. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

 

I don't think the picture of the Caridan in TEGtPaM is Furgan. Just some guy.

Its funny that Furgan has the same kind of eyebrows as the Caridan speices though.

 

Because he's a Caridan. See above. It's written in the book !!!

 

"Who's to say that the Chiss aren't the same way as Anzati, following a path close to human evolution? Maybe the Chiss were brought to the human colonies by human slavers/invaters/traders/etc, and they lived there?"

because gamer 5 talks about them adaptating from humans that colonized there, The used to be human, but there race changed to survive in a harsh environment. this is the fact, the info that lfl's starting to release, which is removing some of there mystery. They are defintly diverged from humanity in one way, that they grow faster than humans. Very much the sign of genetic manipulation, and possibly cloning, remember alot of them look the same. Also remember clones are humans but grown fast, but they are still humans.

"I just call it like I see it -- the Zahn books themselves, the Essential Guide to Characters, the Essential Guide to Alien Species, the Essential Chronology, and the Star Wars Encyclopedia, along with the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, all list Thrawn and his people as ALIENS. Non-human. Near-human (like Anzati) but NON-human nontheless. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me."

And well, people not from your country are Aliens too. Doesn't make them less than human. But to call them Near-human would be a fallacy of the greatest order. just because a book uses a termenology doesn't mean they are using the word right. I can only tell you by Scienctific fact that they are wrong. Cut and dry, is fact not Fiction dished out by people that didn't do there research. to call a race like the chiss near-human is an insult. Maybe the next evolution more than human, yes, but not a human ancestor that Near-humanity implies.

"Non-human" covers a lot of things, that are not human, falleens are not human.

though to take it further, Humans covers a long range of species though, we are homo sapiens, just one of many species of humans.

"Main Entry: 2human
Function: noun
Date: circa 1533
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) : MAN; broadly : any living or extinct member of the family (Hominidae) to which the primate belongs"

So if a race comes from a primate mammal they are human, if they come from something else they are not.
This is fact, people did not do there research.

 

Val, you're raising something interesting in your last post. The Chiss could be clones, you pointed that out.

Now about OUR clones ? If those 200 hundred people are cloned, how are we going to treat them ?

Will they be rejected as being 'different' ? A bit like the Chiss are by the authors and stuff, according to what you say...

I know, I know, this is no more lit-related, but I couldn't help myself. I think cloning is a great step in science, but there are certain implications that scare me...

 

good questions xixor, It's good to question, what people write down, and come up with discussions. You brought up some good points.

Well if say clones were to be treated as subhuman, nonhuman or nearhuman(3 terms hitler used in his speeches and writings by the way for anti-sementics), we would be making a dreadfully wrong use of the word. And would be showing bigotry to a new life, a new form of humans, of homo sapiens, birthed not naturally but a new way. But they are definatly human.

they should get all rights humans are entitled too.

 

I think that too, but unfortunately, IMO, most people will consider them as weird-humans.

I'd not like to be part of the 1st generation of clones.

In 50 years or so, I think they will be common sight, everybody will be used to live with them, so they will be accepted quite smoothly.

But now, I think this first 'batch' is really going to suffer...

Oh God ! I'm talking about clones here. On our planet... I still have a hard time to believe it...

 

Thanks everybody!

Ghengis12, I'm a little weak on my Marvel SW knowledge - however ... I now possess all but two issues of that series, (# 86 and # 105, I think - but I'd have to refer to the list to be certain!). I still haven't gotten around to reading them all though. (I relying heavily on articles by SWEU guros like Rich Handley, Pablo Hidalgo, Abel Pena, Dan Wallace, etc. whenever they pop up in the various publications).

"Generally," and this is just a personal thing, . . . but for whatever reason(s) - I distinguish aliens (and/or "near-humans) like Hethrir, (and other non-human servants within the Empire), from individuals like Thrawn. To me many of these "alien" and/or "near-humans" fit into very distinct roles that are not part of - nor akin to - traditional Imperial military doctrine. These characters did not rise up through appropriate military channels and they don't necessarily occupy traditional military leadership positions. (You're probably right about your Marvel character, Genghis12!!!).

Along those lines - without elaborating more and by skipping straight to the chase - I just don't buy into any "Furgan Paradox." I don't think there is a "paradox" . . . in my eyes Furgan is Human . . . but I realize some opinions feel otherwise. That's perfectly fine. But I'll respectfully disagree (and I'll apologize ahead of time for not walking through my analysis!)

 

BUT IT'S WRITTEN IN THE BOOK !!!

FURGAN IS NOT HUMAN, HE'S A CARIDAN.

Well, now if you continue to imagine him as a human, then it's your problem, but personally, I'll stick with what is canon... And the book is canon.

 

Prince Xizor...

Yes, Furgan is described as "Caridan" in the JAT. But that would be like describing Leia as an Alderaanian, or Han as a Corellian...

Here's I think what happened.

Dan Wallace ( or the artist for Planets & Moons, or SOMEBODY... ) thought that this meant Furgan was a "Caridan" as a different type of species alltogether, clearly ignoring the illustration of him in the Jedi Academy Trilogy Sourcebook, but they do catch the thing about his eyebrows being abnormally long, so they come up with this species for the planet Carida with big eyebrows...

So it was just a mistake in continuity. Thankfully, we can easily fix that. Perhaps Ambassador Furgan is a half-breed human that is the offspring of a human and a "Caridian" ( slightly different spelling. ) And perhaps the genetics are so similiar that Furgan basically looks exactly like a stock human except for his eyebrows.

Gosh. First Greedo, now Imperials with bushy eyebrows. We need new continuity problems.

 

Exactly.