ST The future of Snoke and Kylo

When reading people's predictions for VIII and beyond, I've been struck by the fact that so many of them fail to take into account Kylo and Snoke's blatant trust in each other, and the apparent divergence of their goals and interests. Instead, I'm used to seeing scenarios presented where Kylo and Snoke act in perfect symbiosis, when I simply don't see that being the case.

At the end of their first encounter, Kylo insists that he will “not be seduced” (by the Rey of Light). Snoke appears to take a dim view of Kylo’s self-confidence, replying with “we shall see. We shall see.” That doubt is borne out, of course, because Kylo does quickly screw up by allowing Rey to infiltrate his mind later on.

As for Kylo's feelings about Snoke, it's made clear that he knows he's being used and manipulated - he essentially admits as much with Han when he fails to contradict him when Han says Snoke is merely using him for his power.

Most striking to me, though, is the end encounter between Rey and Kylo. In that scene, Snoke is striking only in his absence. Whether he's conscious of it or not, Kylo repeatedly excludes him with his comments to Rey ("It's just us now!"/"I can show you the ways of the Force!") At the end of TFA, Kylo is emotion driven and apparently acting independently, driven by his irrational hatred of Finn and his obsession with Rey. Whereas Vader was pretty much a loyal lapdog of the Emperor's right up until the end of ROTJ, Kylo appears to be far more independently minded, harder to control and pin down. If he had been in better physical condition and won the duel, I seriously suspect he had no intention of taking Rey back to Snoke - I can actually see him simply running away.

While this is all just an interpretation, I've been surprised that I haven't seen the mutual distrust between Kylo and Snoke discussed more often, especially because it potentially has huge ramifications for how things could play out in the sequels. What do people make of their dynamic? Where do you think it's going to go?

(You can read more on this subject here.)

 

I wonder about him running off myself. I wonder whether snoke will be killed at all.

 

I suspect this is precisely why his training has remained unfinished all these years and Snoke has kept him on such a short leash. It's only the emergence of Rey as a force-powered threat that ensures it's a pressing need at this point, despite Kylo's instability, wavering loyalty and and troubled allegiance.

And finishing that training may be something Snoke comes to regret.

 

Same. The novelisation suggests that Snoke is more conscious of the reasons for Kylo's failings by having him call Kylo out on his compassion for Rey, but that aspect isn't really there in the film itself. It makes me wonder about the extent to which Snoke is really conscious of Kylo's wavering loyalty.

As I say in my extended post on the subject, Kylo is in a very different position to Vader - Vader essentially had nothing left to live for by the end of ROTS (Padme is dead, the Jedi are gone, he believes his child dead), so you can understand why he completely sacrificed self-interest to serve the Emperor. It was basically that or die. With Kylo, however, it almost seems as if he joined Snoke as an act of extreme adolescent rebellion, making the choice based on the interests, fixations and hang ups dictated by his childhood. He had every reason to reject Snoke and his offer, it would seem, which would suggest that his decision to join him was emotion driven and irrational. It would seem that Kylo has remained something of a perpetual adolescence ever since (something encapsulated by Snoke's failure to complete his training), so he's still got the temperament and emotional maturity of a 15-year-old at 30. And I'm sure that's exactly how Snoke wants it, since it's much easier to control a malleable man child than a fully grown and mature adult.

But yep, Kylo's changed by the end of TFA. For the first time, it would seem that he has something he wants for himself (Rey) and potentially a very good reason to actively disobey his master (since he seems to want to train Rey himself, with Snoke out of the equation). Previously, his goals have been inward-focused and abstract - he wants inner peace, personal power and an end to his self-doubt. Rey, meanwhile, is something external to aspire to, a goal that goes beyond his own self. I really hope VIII follows through with this and shows Kylo maturing but also being driven more and more by his self-interest, while having to conceal his personal motives from Snoke. It's going to be really interesting to see where they take things.

 

So what about romance between Snoke and Kylo? Snoke was originally thought to be female.

 

Well, that would certainly be a curveball for Tumblr. I'm thinking ship names - maybe Kyloke? Snolo?

 

but have you thought about what kind of think snoke will actually share with him? it looks like ben had innate force ability, I'm not sure snoke actually has anything to teach him?

 

I don't think the "symbiotic" relationship between Snoke & Kylo is such a wide accepted opinion : if you look closely, you'll see many different users implying quite the opposite. Besides, we all know Darksiders suffer from "chronic backstabbing disorder". Even Vader, behind his apparent obedience, was looking to overthrow the Emperor.

And this "couple" is a lot less functionnal than any pair of Sith we saw : Kylo doesn't show respect, doesn't kneel or call him Master, and only loosely obeys Snoke's command (some mentionned he also flat-out refused an order in the novelization). There is a reason for Snoke not completing his training....

So, i, like many other here, don't predict a "happy ending" for this couple. And with Snoke being so poorly characterised in TFA (basically Palpatine 1.2 with a Voldemort-esque face), i wouldn't even bet on him surviving ep 8...

 

Yeah, I definitely see the mistrust between these two already... and it will only grow from here, I think. I doubt that the completion of Kylo's training will really accomplish what Snoke wants it to. Also, I don't think Kylo is totally on board with the First Order, and is playing that role for now out of convenience (although Snoke may be using them as well).

I've already said elsewhere that I don't think Kylo can be redeemed and live, but I do think he can sacrifice himself in an act that causes significant harm to Snoke and/or the First Order.

 

I imagine that the training would focus on making his mental powers more acute. Most of Kylo's ability seems to be concentrated in his powers over the mind, and I can see Snoke seeking to refine that, potentially with the goal of having Kylo use his mental powers to sow seeds of doubt in Rey's mind. I'm also going with that because Snoke's frailty suggests he's unlikely to be teaching Kylo acrobatic lightsaber moves.

Well, most of the fan treatments/theories I've read tend to focus on one of several scenarios when it comes to Kylo and Snoke:

1. Kylo is training under Snoke, but is jealous because he suspects that Snoke wants to make Rey his apprentice.
2. Snoke is essentially non-existent (because of the afore-mentioned ass characterisation, most likely), with the Dark side focus all being on the Knights of Ren and Kylo himself.

I suppose it's the first scenario that I find particularly puzzling. For Kylo to be jealous of Rey because Snoke seems to favour her, Kylo would have to still be invested in Snoke's opinion of him and naive enough to think that there's a chance that Snoke isn't going to drop him like a stone when someone better comes along. Since we know that Kylo is now fully aware that Snoke wants to drop him (see his conversation with Han), the filmmakers would have to be idiots to regress his character into a state where he's jealous of the other potential student that his master is scoping out. There is not even the slightest trace of jealousy in relation to Rey evident in Kylo in TFA - when he sees her Force powers displayed, he is by turns shocked, amazed and awed. Even at the end when he's lying on the ground with a gash across his face, he doesn't look angry - just shocked and disbelieving. I think instead of being jealous of Rey in the sense that he perceives her as a rival for Snoke's approval, Kylo would instead be mainly concerned with concealing his personal interest in her while contriving to get her to his side so they can overthrow Snoke together and assume power.

I find the most likely scenario the one where Kylo and Snoke are both using each other, with each party conscious that they're playing a very dangerous game that they stand to lose everything in. That, to me, is the only training scenario I can envisage that doesn't make them both look like complete idiots.

Yep, TFA makes a point of showing Kylo as being at a remove from the FO and its goals. His absence from Hux's rally is very pointed, and he's repeatedly shown to disapprove of and oppose Hux's plans and methods. I seriously think everything is being set up for Kylo to go rogue, and I really hope that that's the route they go down.

 

i like that!

i would love it if the saga would pick up shades of grey and actually show someone not belonging to either side. it's long overdue.

 

As you pointed out in the other thread : Kylo is extermely ambitious. So i don't see him going rogue ... or at least not before trying to seize power for himself. Of course, if his attempt to dethrone Snoke fails, he would then be on his own ...

Now that i think about it, i could picture him doing just that, go back to the Resistance, and pull a "Kerrigan scheme" on them ... hmm.

Spoiler: Sarah Kerigan

For those who don't know Starcraft, Sarah Kerrigan was a human. She was captured & transformed by aliens (Zergs). Later on, after the alien Overmind's controlling her was defeated, she came back to the "good guys", seemingly reformed.
She proposed an Alliance with them, and helped them take out all the other Zergs leader... just to betray everyone else afterwards (killing many former allies in the process), and claimed the whole Zerg empire all for herself.

This big scheme allowed her to become, in her own words, "the Queen Bitch of the Universe".
.

 

I could see a scenario where Kylo abandons Snoke and the FO in favour of using the Knights of Ren as his power base. If the KOR is only seven (relatively) ordinary individuals that's unlikely, but it's perfectly possible that those were just the integral members - they could well have power bases of their own that Kylo could draw upon to consolidate his own power and strike out against Snoke.

 

I really like the idea of Kylo having his own power base as it makes him not fully dependent on Snoke. But are all the knights of Ren completely loyal to Kylo? Their loyalty might be divided between him and Snoke. If I recall correctly the knights of Ren already existed before Kylo join them and Snoke just chose him to be their leader.

Same here. But I think something huge is going to happen that will make Kylo finally break away. Maybe a betrayal of some sort, from Snoke?

 

Yes, there is definite mistrust, definite push and pull between them both.

What if Snoke is keeping Kylo in line by telling him he has something regarding his grandfather, some information or teachings? (What if Vader left a sith holocron that Snoke got his hands on, that would be something Kylo would want very badly.) In "completing" his training, Snoke has told him he will give whatever it is to Kylo which would explain why he has remained. Since Kylo would appear to be aware Snoke is using him, they would be using each other for their own reasons, each most likely planning on betraying the other once what it is they are after is had. I like the idea that Kylo would want to leave with the KoR, perhaps this is what he is planning after he gets what he wants?

Based on TFA, they have some tension between them so that could only build in 8 and possibly 9. Regardless of the reason... it has to come to a head eventually.

 

The KoR are only 7 dudes, not even confirmed to be FS. Why would Kylo leave with just them ? Especially when he has the opportunity to seize an entire army, one capable of leading a campaign of Galactic proportion (or at least take over a few planets).

 

Perhaps that's not his goal. Maybe that is why he seems a bit separate from the First Order and why he clashes with Hux, he may not be interested in galactic domination. His focus appeared (at the beginning of TFA) to be solely on finding Luke and getting rid of the light that remained in him.