Senate The Future of the Republican Party

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jabbadabbado, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    I guess though, did Romney really need to do that? No, on the one hand. Because clearly results show that the working class right-wing vote, with it's love of bibles and hatred of Muslims and The Gay, don't matter when it comes to winning elections. They didn't help Mr Bush win; he had his own Mittens in the form of John Kerry.

    And let's face it, if this particular slice of the right remains so utterly irrational as to believe half the things they believe, they'll vote for the non-Obama alternative regardless.

    As you said, therefore, the problem lies with the party. You're actually luckier, in a way; Australians have shown they would prefer Kevin Rudd leading the Labor Party, and Malcolm Turnbull leading the Liberal Party, but we get party-palatable leaders instead. Your system affords someone who can poll well with middle America more of a chance (in theory at least).

    Mainly, what I think needs to happen, is that the ultra-conservative bloc needs to spring out on its own to form a new party...
  2. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    You can manipulate a group without catering to them, though. I mean, heck, I'd have far fewer problems if they were manipulating them, because their policies wouldn't keep showing up. I don't think it's helping that the Republicans being controlled by religious conservatives in some states has been bleeding over to hurt the standing of the party in states that have more moderate Republican parties, and so the non-religious conservatives are moving away from the party, and it's losing other influences that might help to direct the party back away from some of the more ridiculous things they're doing. It's going to stay in this same spot as pushing dangerously extreme policies.

    Ender, for the general he didn't, but to get to the general, he did. The party is so focused on how moderate is a bad word that the moderate candidates end up masquerading as staunch social conservatives just to have a chance.
    Last edited by Lowbacca_1977, Nov 7, 2012
  3. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Sorry I missed this, but this is exactly how I hoped someone would answer, because it proves the one above point I was trying to make.

    Even though Kucinich gets ignored at the national level, he still continues to get elected at his local level. Why? I think a fringe group like Code Pink, or just about every blogger at Mother Jones would disagree with you about how how fringe Kucinich's views should be. Are they legitimate, or illegitimate subsets of the democratic party? See, on one hand, you dismiss Kucinich because his views are silly, but on the other, you characterize views that are just as silly as backed up by the party you disagree with. Akin's views were extreme, and not shared by the GOP. The national party even tried to get him to step down, which he ignored, which doomed his chances even more. I used the Clinton-Lewinsky example to highlight that Lewisky wasn't just a random fling, she was an intern, which Clinton had control over. Clinton even paid Jones just about a million dollars, because his instances of sexual harassment weren't isolated. Does the national party share Clinton's view that all women are sexual playthings to be thrown away? That he's perpetually in a bad episode of Mad Men?. No, of course not. Because as you did with Kucinich, you viewed his opinions as his own.Clinton himself has even recovered from any fallout of his own indiscretions. The problem with Clinton, and Akin, and others isn't their party identification, it's that they believe they are untouchable. In a simple word, it's called hubris. But on one hand, you so easily dismiss a politician from one party as a fluke, but on the other, in your opinion, it's backed up to one degree or the other.
  4. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Mr44, your post is factually inaccurate.

    Fair point, and I would probably agree. Really, so long as it remains in the interest of religious conservatives to support the GOP (i.e. it's their best chance at elected office) the GOP'll be held hostage to them.

    We can all agree that the GOP needs to go back to being a moderate, centre-right party that doesn't embrace lowest common denominator mob politics. A party that's not so scared of modernity that it makes a mockery of science at the expense of crude superstition. This, however, is all "in theory". In reality, the GOP has started to 'double down' on the crazy, obstructionist policies so... 8-}
  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Our system doesn't have much incentive for them to do that. Maybe if we had more proportional voting and first past the post? Perhaps. But not now.

    Hey ES, dont know if you intended it or not but Tim Dalton....vastly underrated Bond.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Nov 7, 2012
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
  7. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6

    Uhh.... Kucinich lost, months ago, in the primary...


    Also, the key is that the GOP flip-flopped and started backing Akin again. Which showed voters that they really didn't view his views to be as bad as they said they did.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 7, 2012
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  8. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    After only 16 years in Congress. He was first elected in 1996, after all.

    So, did his views just become fringe this year, or were they always fringe, and he just kept getting elected anyways?
  9. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Name his top 5 fringe policy positions, and I'll let you know my opinion.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 7, 2012
  10. Juliet316 Streak for Colours Bonanza Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Redistricting due to the Census taking a seat away from Ohio.
  11. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Of course they did.

    Big business love corporate welfare, why do you think they keep giving billions of dollars to Karl Rove?
  12. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    And he lost the primary in the newly-combined distict, but I'd still like to know what specific policy issues Kucinich is fringe on, to see if any of those may have had an effect, just want to see if me and KK are on the same page on them first.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 7, 2012
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    He wanted Star Trek Enterprise renewed for another season?
  14. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    I remember him from, I think the Bush/Kerry election. I remember one of the things he talked about was the idea of a Peace Department, instead of the War Department.
  15. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    That's called the US Department of State.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  16. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    Those are his words not mine. but he came off looking pretty fringe....
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Do you know what the Republican Party needs? It needs someone line Joseph Welch to "have you no sense of decency?" to the entire party, rather than just one person. To do so could take a career in politics, or at least a long while.

    heels1785 likes this.
  18. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah that's a stupid idea... but I wanted to ask Kimball to see what he thought was fringe.

    Because, for example, saying you supported Marriage Equality in 2004 would probably be considered fringe, at least by conservatives. So I just wanted to see which policy ideas KK thought were the fringiest for him, then I'd know how to respond to his question if any of those positiosn hurt him politically.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    double post
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 8, 2012
  20. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    triple post
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 8, 2012
  21. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I would definitely put Kucinich's "Department of Peace" on the list. I would also include his repeated attempts to outright ban all handguns, and his repeated attempts to impeach both Bush and Cheney (to the point of filing articles of impeachment).

    However, the person you should really be asking is Mr44. He's the one that initially brought up Kucinich as an example of fringe in the Democratic Party. I merely pointed out that your response (that he lost the primary this year) still doesn't account for how he was reelected 7 times previously.
  22. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    A great transcript from a PBS discussion about the campaign:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec12/tactics_11-07.html

    One thing that stands out is how the Obama campaign stepped in to exploit this GOP weakness of forced displays of conservative credentials during the Republican primaries, basically enticing some of the candidates to step in and attack Romney.
  23. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Your whole approach is wrong-headed though, KK. Kucinich is not an appropriate point of comparison to Akin. He had very liberal views that were compatible with his district but could not be sold more broadly. As a result, his career arrested. He was a perpetual House member, with no chance of moving up the ranks in his Party, because policy positions he would not compromise on precluded that. By contrast, Akin was problematic because he, like Mourdock, O'Donnell, and Angle before him, fell upward. Conservative voters rewarded him specifically for his "bold" voicing of strident and radical viewpoints that made him more broadly unelectable. It is also important to point that while Akin's specific remarks helped to tilt an otherwise very conservative state away from him, his underlying view--held broadly within the Party-- was also rejected. The Blunt amendment drew very negative public reaction, and it was a major initiative by the House, Senate, and Presidential nominee. While rape remarks were something of an exclamation point, a gender gap had already opened and a "war on women" narrative was already moving along healthily on the basis of remarks about the intention to defund Planned Parenthood, and the extremely limited allowances for abortion that represented even the most "moderate" voices during the primary season. It was not just a problem of two particular individuals that made two poorly worded statements. The whole party was getting hit because the whole party's position was, in fact, judged to be too extreme. How do Republicans walk that back, when they've built up so much around their "culture of life?"

    Or similarly, on the issue of minority outreach, newspapers report that at the University of Mississippi, news of the President's re-election was greeted by crowds of hundreds burning his campaign materials and using racial slurs. This is the spontaneous behavior of the GOP base. When conservative commentators accuse Obama of trying to implement slavery reparations, a former Chief of Staff feels comfortable impugning a highly accomplished former Secretary of State and former head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on a racial basis, and politicians becomes Presidential front-runners after endorsing D'Souza's bigoted interpretation of Obama's Presidency, you can't say that this sort of attitude isn't at some level being encouraged. But again, even if it wasn't, if those are your supporters, how do you expect to carry them with you when you suddenly transition to a message of tolerance, or forbid openly racist remarks directed against the President?

    Or for a third example, consider their current rhetoric about the role of government. Most clearly highlighted in Romney's "47%" comments, but also in the broader Rand-influenced discourse that is so popular in conservative circles now, something has fundamentally changed. To whatever extent it was before, the conservative message is no longer simply about empowering people to do for themselves without government help. With increasing explicitness, the takers/makers dichotomy bespeaks disdain for anyone who dares to require public assistance of any sort, at any time in their lives. It will take quite impressive rhetorical acrobatics to go from decrying people as worthless leeches to suggesting there may be room for the in the party after all. Especially since, in the immediate post-election period, a number of conservative commentators are merely mourning the fact that country has been taken over by "people that want stuff" which is exactly the sort of disparaging attitude that drove these voters away in the first place.

    I think you're kidding yourself if you believe that the Republican Party only needs to make small or easy adjustments in the days ahead.
  24. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Why do you call it my approach? I'm not the one who brought him up! I simply pointed out that he regularly got reelected until this year.

    If you are going to complain that the approach is wrong, talk to @Mr44. He's the one that chose that approach.
  25. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    And that's not even correct, as it was Alpha-Red who labled Kucinich's views "silly" (the fringe part came later, but captures the same essence.)

    Everyone is forgetting why I brought Kucinich up in the first place. It was put forth that Akin's views weren't extreme, they represented the core of that belief system. Except Akin's views are most certainly extreme, and in fact, the national republican party (not the democrats- the GOP itself) tried to oust Akin because his statements don't match up to the core. But there was really nothing the party could do at the local level, as one of the great aspects of the system is that anyone can run for office. It's kind of linked to free speech and all.... Kucinich was used as an an example of a candidate who lost at the national level whenever he ran for President, but continued to win re-election at the local level, despite the fact that some of his views were fringe related to the overall democratic party.

    KK's reply of "After only 16 years in Congress. He was first elected in 1996, after all. So, did his views just become fringe this year, or were they always fringe, and he just kept getting elected anyways" cuts right through to the core of the issue. After all, Alpha-Red-a die hard liberal with no negative connotation to the term- recognized Kucinich as extreme, but Kucinich was elected, and re-elected 3 times in his district, and was able to run for President twice with the blessing of the national party, even though he never really was a viable candidate. Kucinich only finally lost, not because people said "wow, he's a wacko, let's oust him..." but because of re-districting. Again, I'm sure there are those at Code Pink or Mother Jones who don't consider Kucinich fringe at all. In fact, there are voters in Ohio who continued to vote for Kucinich even though they knew he was not suited for higher office.

    That's my point, because it seems that there is no reverse buffer. There's an unspoken allowance that a politician like Kucinich is just one person and entitled to his views just leave him alone, nod when he walks into the room...Even people within Kucinich's own party recognized him as too extreme for the national level, but allowed him to remain a candidate for nearly 2 decades. But for some reason, whenever there is a candidate on the other side, like Akin, who holds an extreme view, there is no allowance. Suddenly, Akin isn't just one man, he represents the views of everyone who is of the same party. What's the GOP supposed to do? Assassinate him if he continues to run? Break his legs? The entire election process is self correcting. Akin lost, and lost badly, and should be criticized. But no one should pretend that he represents every politician who might have a (R) after their name because he ran on that ticket.
    Last edited by Mr44, Nov 8, 2012
  26. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    you sure seemed eager to defend an approach you refuse to claim, kimball

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    anywho, here's a chart:

    [IMG]

    so 88% of all romney voters were white, a majority in decline. romney's share of the white vote was 59%, just short of his campaign goal of 60% and up 4% from Mccain's 55%. the gop finds itself in a bit of a catch 22 situation where they're increasingly entirely dependent on a white voting population that will look poorly on them trying to pander to the minorities they actually need to win the presidency. the long-prophesied demographic tipping point that makes a rump party of the GOP could finally be here. at the very least it looms very large in this election. the ultimate signifier of GOP doom will be when texas and its mammoth 38 electoral votes swing blue. lets take a look at what austinist.com has to say about that little scenario:

    while i think its much more likely that the reason the media made the race seem much closer than it was is a simple case of self-interested corporations acting in their own best interest (closer race, more viewers/readers), its also possible that the white-run media was simply out of touch. i mean look at this nonsense the NYT posted the week before the election:

    meanwhile, in reality, obama won pennsylvania by 5 points.

    back thru the looking glass for some bill o'reilly:

    bill does a good job closely coupling the racist submerged content of the 47%/"they want stuff" argument with its rhetoric. here we see its not the hardworking, white, establishment males that "want stuff", its the latinos, the blacks, and the women who are the problem. they're destroying traditional america

    guess what bill? yes, obama won the black vote and the latino vote and the women vote. he also won the asian vote by 2:1. and that was enough to win the american vote because being an american isnt just for "traditional americans" like you anymore, bill. but you still dont see it that way and that's why you lose
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Nov 8, 2012