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Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource' started by Winged_Jedi, Jan 18, 2012.

Moderators: Penguinator, Ramza
  1. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Interesting hearing Fins' observations, because it seems to me if you're building a long-lasting story you have no choice but to allow for redundancies. As Sin Fins says, you build with enough plot threads so you can lose one or two without losing the whole game. Which obviously worked for SotS. In ToF's case, not out of any brilliance on my part and more out of just how D&D is built, your other option is to build a story flexible enough that no player is so integral to the story that the story cannot continue without them. ToF has no plot branches, but all it really requires if put to it is two or three players*. D&D and the campaign that ToF works from is just like that - it has opportunities or story hooks to allow people to either become NPCs or get killed off, as well as places for other people to pick up and join in.

    Although both approaches, as Fins noted, require (a) committed players and (b) a lot of luck. Which, touch wood, Light and I have had thus far.

    Sky, as to your game I'd probably have to agree with Draco and Peng: it's either you're "not known" or the game just isn't what people want to play right now.

    But I would really, really, really like you to stay, simply because you gave a damn enough to come and talk to us before launching. Please don't take one failure as indictive that all your efforts will go that way. Most likely, they won't. As Draco says - come play with us. We make friends easy.

    If it's world building you're into, I'm probably flexible enough to start another Microscope RPG. Doesn't have to be a lot of people, either, it can be two of us or three or four. Microscope at least (and I think I've worked out where I screwed up the first time I tried to run it) allows everyone to GM and worldbuild together. Have a look at the one that's running and see if it sparks your interest. Probably the best part of it is that every game's unique, because every group of ideas and whatnot is unique. (Oh, and if anyone else is interested, I'm happy to take another person or two on!)

    * Not that I want to lose any one of the eight great players I currently have. They're awesome.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Sep 13, 2012
    Penguinator likes this.
  2. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah Sky, definitely stay.[:D] It's just an unfortunate time to launch, with most of the games running at the moment being continuations from the temp boards, and the player base still recovering from losing a few people to The Move.
  3. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Well I did finally get around to posting my first Intervention post.:p

    That being said, I'm leaning towards 'not enough people interested'. In which case, I'll either revive it in a couple months, or go with that new Stargate idea.:p
  4. Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, personally, I have a game idea, but I'm not posting it until I see a lot more activity in the RPF, using Hooper McFinney's to measure said activity. Once the thread gets to around 5+ posts per hour regularly, I will know that the activity levels are good enough.
  5. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Your game looks interesting Saint. That being said, I'm already playing four RP's (mine, Intervention, one in the EUC, and the one I got the points from). So I don't have a whole lot of spare time.:p

    Granted, the last one is near ready to die off, so maybe I might have more time soon. Who knows.:p

    Incidentally, that brings me to another random idea (obviously not being posted/even worked out anytime soon). The one that I play on the other website (here's a link to the forum where the game is: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewforum.php?f=45) is something I think may flourish over here once the RPF is back on its feet.

    The premise is simple...world-building, but on a grand scale. When I say GRAND scale I mean it...you create your own empire (or other generic regime name) and run with it. In the most recent version (numero 5...and the first I joined) its a Space game, with Space Empires. And quite wacky ones too...we have an Empire made up of anime references, sentient SPACE BEES, sentient Dragons...the list goes on and on. The pure wackiness factor is the reason I think a game like it could take off here, if I timed it right. Of course, that's just one of my random ideas, so who knows how it would go.:p (also, my nation was nicknamed 'Space Sweden' because that's what it was.;) )
    Last edited by Skywalker_T-65, Sep 14, 2012
  6. Sir_Draco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2007
    star 4
    I think we only have to modus operandi. GM markets, where players need new stuff and Player markets, where the GMs row out their games and you have a free choice. Righ now we got the latter. I thought we would need new games, but seiously . . . I am happy my game tuned out so well, I had totally misinterpreted the situaion. :D

    Anyway, I think we are on a topic and that one is endings. So World Building and Game Timing next, now I´ll make uop my mind about what Saint and Fin said. Interesting idea that is, compartializing your game to secure a fluid game-flow. I always do that because I kinda dig ensemble cast things.
  7. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    And what is a good ending? I mean we saw the discussion about ME3 this year, heard about the "unending" storylines of MMOs and so on . . . saw TDKR and it´s conclusion. Into games players often spend hundreds of hours. What do you owe them? What can you, should you do with them to end their storylines? Surprise them? Fulfill their expectations? These boards saw a few endings and they were a wide range of endings, I´d say. What did people feel was an effective ending? What does not work?
  8. Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 5
    A good ending, would be one that answers all the questions that needed an answer. Doesn't necessarily have to be the answers we were looking to see, but the answers do need to make sense, and not be extraordinarily disappointing for the amount of exposition put into the story.

    One example of a bad ending because it was really underwhelming, was in the first "Borderlands" game.
  9. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    I'd say in the context of gaming - whether it be tabletop, video game, or in our case, PbP, the most egregious sin is the anti-climax (Except in comedies, but those are pretty rare, so I'll discount them for this discussion). It's got to feel like something so monumental just happened that there can be no going back - even if you're planning a sequel, the status quo has been permanently uprooted. I haven't played ME3, so I can't really comment on that ending, but I have played Borderlands and...

    Hell, just let me paint a picture.

    In 2010, I played Borderlands with one of my best friends every weekend for a few months. The plot was... well, nothing to write home about, but we had a lot of fun just shooting the breeze and customizing our respective characters for maximum potential and playstyle compatibility. We got seriously invested, and had also come to expect a certain progression of difficulty - the phrase "****ING BUGS EVERYWHERE GAAAAAAAH!" was screamed more than once. So when we got to what was obviously the last mission, we were expecting a great fight. Instead... we got a really mediocre boss. There were legitimately better bosses in that game, for one, and then the ending is just "Oh, well, guess that didn't pan out. Go **** around."

    When you've invested that much time, that sucks. Nothing changed, and it all just sort of felt like a waste of time. Failure can be an option, but not when the failure is just "Doesn't work, too bad."

    I think I used a similar example in one of the older versions of this thread, actually. Still holds.
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 16, 2012
  10. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 6
    Answering questions is secondary to delivering a sense of closure. You answer too many questions, suddenly your ending is an infodump and not a way of wrapping things up.
  11. Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 5
    @Ramza - Don't forget to mention the fact that the boss WAS the vault you were searching for. It wasn't some treasure trove full of goodies like the game led you on to believe. The greatest example of where a game trolls you with an ending.
    @Penguinator - Yeah, that's pretty much what I was referring to when I said "all the questions that needed an answer".
  12. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Dude, have you ever seen The Maltese Falcon? Misleads are not "trolling." But it was poorly handled because the fight was unsatisfying relative to the buildup, and nothing really changed. That's my issue with it - the vault could've actually been filled with garbage for all I cared if they had handled it right.
  13. Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, just for grins I assisted a group of friends on their playthrough 1 version of the fight, on my maxed out level 69 soldier with extra skill points from mad moxxis, all legendary weapons and everything. I killed it, solo, in about 5 seconds, before anyone else could even get a shot in.
  14. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Incidentally, if you want underwhelming final boss battle...look at Fallout New Vegas. Legate Lanius...big tough guy who is supposedly capable of killing you before you can blink.

    *pulls out Alien Blaster and shoots him in the face*

    Nevermind...:p

    **************

    Serious now...an ending does need to deliver closure. Otherwise your player base will be angry, and that's not conducive to starting new games.
  15. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Okay, maybe that is more of an interview question, is it? Obviously we all have so little experience with it, all we come up with is computer games. *laughs* Well to be honest, I doubt Bossfights have a lot of meaning to Rps *sighs* But all i come up with is classical narration, too.


    Which is useless when you have ten protagonists instead of one.
  16. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Well, I did have this ripped from RL example back in the v1.0 guild.

    But... that's about all I've got. I don't think I've ever been in a game that finished all the way to the end, aside from my own "Whatever the hell that was" endings in a couple of games.
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 17, 2012
  17. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Well, I was in a few. I think I was in most games who had an ending around here lately. But I never gave the design of them a lot of thought. It always was just kind of a "rush" to be in them. It took you in and you kept on updating every minutes to get more and then . . . it was over. Usually leaving you satisfied. Sometimes not so much, sometimes they left you with a feeling of having been part of a great story. So the idea to create something like this in the foreseeable future for my own game is kinda . . . intimidating.

    And yet I feel the RPF has little experience on that field. As much as we all offer GM experience, most GMs prefer to ride their beast until it dies . . . instead of reaching the end of their jounrey.
  18. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 6
    I feel like the RPF has gone through a number of trends - games with an open ending, games with closed endings, games that simply don't end, games that have a clear ending...

    I think what matters more than the game having an ending is giving closure to each player's individual narrative. It needs to be rewarding for them.
  19. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    ... You know, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had a character's personal story end. I've always had an end in sight, but as for an actual proper ending ... [face_thinking]

    But that is probably more of a discussion point for the Roleplaying Group than it is for the Game Group.
  20. Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 5
    I've had a personal character's story end, but not in an RP.

    This is because usually I like to have the gist of the story for a character pre-determined, and use role play as a way to fill in the details. Such is the case with Kev-Mas Colcha I.
  21. Sir_Draco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2007
    star 4
    The thing is, it is quite hard ot get there. People leave, RL intervenes and then you simply "use your game up" over time and the attention of players go to other games. I always feel it needs an amazing game to make it to the end, as it needs to stand tall when most games fall. Problem is, how create such a game? If I had one, the end would not be too much concern. Sure, you might not do a perfect ending, but having a game end is so rare, it makes it special anyway. Does it?

    From the game I experienced ending, especially 133 ABY and lately of course the epic that was SotS I felt they gave not only closure but also spectacle in the end. Both games did have a twist or two for the end and both did escalate events. Of course they were both made from the same forge, but what I believe is a good end is one that shocks, satisfies you, give you closure and at the same surprises you. And obviously you need the right players for that. Players who are open to the possibilities of an end, to failure, death and victory. Not players who want you to stay out of their way.
  22. DarkLordoftheFins Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2007
    star 4
    About ends . . .

    Seriously, the complications of GMing ends are overestimated. I have a few behind me and I always found it to be rather easy, because you usually got

    a. An idea what you need to do
    b. Dedicated players (all others aren´t around anymore)
    c. The full attention of everybody

    The three factors above and a lot of motivated writers usually doing their utmost best to provide a good closure are all you need to have fun with it. It´s hard to get there sometimes and there is a moment where you must make a leap of faith and begin endgame despite there is always something tell you to wiat a little longer, ubt after that, it usually becomes one flow. I strongly advise to do "daily updating" sessions for the very end, as they usually simply itensify the feeling of the endgame. Otherwise, for the above reasons, you are simply doing what you did before, with a much more concentrated crowd of players.

    Also I think my top-three RPing moments were finales, so I strongy encourage people to aim for it. They are always worth it.
  23. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Looks like you had the final word here, Fin.

    May I presenta new topic, I have on my mind? A problem I have, so to say.
  24. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I think we've exhausted the previous topic (and it was a great discussion to kick off our return, incidentally). So yes, Sirak, please proceed.
  25. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Okay, a very practical question then.

    How do you include new players into your game? I feel like I am bad at it, maybe I do not have the vibe. I never joined a game after it´s initial start. So how do you make them feel welcome? How do you treat that in your narration etc.?

    Thanks already.
    Last edited by SirakRomar, Sep 20, 2012
Moderators: Penguinator, Ramza