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Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource' started by Winged_Jedi, Jan 18, 2012.

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  1. LordTroepfchen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2007
    star 4
    I think our definition of selling is just very different.

    And I do not believe an "unaltered product" truly exists outside a . . . no I cannot say that here. :p

    Selling is not writing OPs. That is a good tool for it, but by far not the only thing. Selling is seduction. It is not a noble, honorable thing, it is making things sexy. And we all know alcohol and dim light help there. Same with games. Do not add awesome features, leave away what you think is in your way. Introduce it later. Or cut it. But YOU CAN SELL ANYTHING. At a price, of course. At a price.

    In the case of Twilight I really think Sirak nailed it. Take the name away and you´ll have a game. It would be so much more cruel, dark and tough than those cheesy novels but that´s what players make out of it. If you do games . . . with players . . . pure vision can not be accomplished anyway. You are simply not doing it alone. You hand over control to them.

    And all of that argument assumes we are cut off newbies. Because if you wanna do Twilight, you tell me how to register and I let loose my lil Sister and her friends at you! [face_laugh] There you have 200 players. I said selling, not selling to the players of your dreams ;)

    So I still think, you can sell anything.


    And that part is something not even I knew about Fin and SotS. Please, full length interview, Sirak! [face_mischief] Looking forward to that one, really./>
  2. Sir_Draco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2007
    star 4
    I did two games around here and both were not totally original but also not pure franchise games. The first Bad Day in L.A. had franchise characters act in a scenarion created by myself, which actually was rooted deeply in the real world and the 80ties. I never even thought about how I needed to sell that world and ran into problems when some players found out people shoot back or they cannot godmod themselves through every situation, because the 80ties movies look like that. As soon as two players on opposite sides came together the differences between both sides became totally obvious. It totally crashed, when my more experienced Co-GM left (which he had announced early on, he just gets it into hte air with me, flying will be my job) and I really must say that was almost the end of GMing for me, until I realized I simply had not a game defined enough. My players did not know where they were. They had to make it up themselves and everybody came up with his version.

    My second game was a franchise and a desired one with a lot players joining and then I added elements of space horror to give it another twist. Mass Effect Ashen was a lot more successful and easy to GM, I must say. Why? I had no need to explain anything. Whatever I did not come up with the games seemed to answer for me. I said Cerberus and TSG filled in all blanks. I said Reaper and people had an idea. This is what an orginal game misses. Usually. If you can create such feeling I believe you can only do so through playing and playing for a longer time. These franchises you use haven´t grown in a day, either.

    So I believe to sell a world is best done by starting with a limited view and broaden the perception of the world. So you need to hook them with something else but your world, because you cannot introduce that at once. And that is why the "sourcebook"-OPs fail. The world is not in my imagination, when I read the facts. It is not there. I know it, but I do not feel it.
  3. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Good point about Bad Day in LA, Draco. If you leave the players to create for themselves, they end up creating different versions of the world around them. In a way, we all play in slightly different versions of the gameworld from each other anyway. There's only a problem when two versions collide and aren't compatible, which is more likely to happen in an "original" game. A useful learning experience for a GM. Perhaps all new GMs should try running an original game?

    LordT, I might take you up on that offer about Twilight one day! :p I think, as Fins said, that the commonalities between our position are greater than the differences (incidentally Fins, I would love to hear about Bordwell's theory that you mentioned...maybe we can cover it another day if you have time).

    Alright...I reckon we've reached a broad consensus here! Some excellent insights into the art of setting out the unfamiliar- in fact, I think I'll start an index in the OP so that we know where to look for our discussions in future.

    I'll give things another day or so to settle, and if anyone has anything they'd like to add then please pipe up.
  4. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    I don't really have anything to add from personal experience because Corellia isn't exactly set in an unfamiliar universe (even though it's far-past, I said "steampunk meets Star Wars" and then everyone knew what I was talking about from the start) and as a player I prefer unfamiliar settings to begin with. But a belated thanks for the nod, Wing! :D Here's hoping our posting streak over there lasts ...
  5. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    So, maybe before we move on to the next topic I would indeed like to mention something about doing original stuff. It has drawbacks, barriers and problems attached to it, certainly. But there are a few things to gain from it an ordinary game cannot give you in the same way.

    First of all there is something satisfying in seeing such worlds develop, even as a player it is. As a GM I am certain it will be even better.

    And it is attractive for players. Actually a lot of OPs fail to deliver their owrld, but do they fail to capture our interest? To be truthful I read further in those OPS than in any others, if I am not interested. In a way they get an extra chance and I believe many players feel that way. Actually some players prefer this mateiral exclusively. Which game did ever draw out more lurkers and occassional players than The Sins of the Saints? Really half the crowd there usually did not mix with our games and they did not vanish, but truly stayed around to play. This is a player-based who come with great enthusiasm and in the SotS case they even brought great skills in writing. Think about it. It is a drwam nobody dares to dream anymore, but a second pool of players make you really independant in your doings around here.

    It is not Star Wars. That comes with many extras, I believe. I love SW, but seriously I know how it works. Surprises? I don´t mean twists, but really deeply routed feelings of novelity, come only from something entirely new and original. In SW everything has been done or is forseeable. Even if you try hard to break the patterns, you just break the patterns. Through knowing what the patterns are, your players know what you will do with it.

    Last but not least, you create something on your own. At least for one person here this ideas became marketable and actually worth money.

    So there are a few bonuses to mastering this subgenre of original material. And I dream of one day trying my hands on it.
  6. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Fair point about originality Sirak. There's probably more long-term satisfaction and joy in forging something of your own pure creation, as long as you can get the process right. It's a delicate alchemy.

    And has Star Wars become a bit too predictable for us these days? Well, that question leads right into our next discussion...


    [image=http://www.spinoffonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/funke2-570x350.jpg]
    Winged's Weekly Rounds

    The Operating Table

    As suggested by LordT.

    "A time for everything...what games fit the RPF best in these times?"

    Good question. Answers on a postcard. Or alternatively, in post form.


    The Waiting Room

    1. Players - the unknown factor (LordT)
    2. Behind The Scenes Featurette
    3. (add your topic here)
    4. ...

    GM Of The Week...is Saintheart, for having successfully brought his motley crew through a marvelous dream sequence in A Tide of Flames!

    Did You Know...that the first drink served at Hoopers was a Johrian whiskey, on the 8th July 2002?
    />
  7. DarkLordoftheFins Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2007
    star 4
    That question is more tricky than I originally thought. Of course circumstances lead to certain games being better suited to be played and GMed than others. So I think it is a fair and good question. But what kind of game is this a good time for? I have seen a few of those Eras of game in my time here. But what is a "desired" game these days?

    I will spare you an in depth analysis of the development over years and how factors changed here. Or do you want to . . . no? Okay. :p



    What makes me quite happy is that the tolerance for experiments has become greater. A lot greater, actually. We have three out of seven games in NSRPF that are more or less original creations. So a wonderful nod to our last topic, people really like those around here by now. I was once told by a Mod that it would never work to envision a game myself and for those days, it was probably true. Back then.

    Even those that aren´t original take often quite radical unusual approaches to their franchises. SW sports game. SW steampunk. SW fantasy style. Mass Effect Horror. We had it all recently. And as nice as it is, we must truly admit, the traditional SW games are on an all time low. We have only three SW games with more or less classical settings that have run longer than a few month. No really big game is present anymore. Nothing most of the community is involved with is played right now. The bigger the game, the older and more isolated the player group is, really. And if a SW big game comes up, they have a damned hard time surviving. The reason is partly, because our player-base has grown smaller, but I believe also because we do not have new blood anymore. The freshness of newbies and their enthusiasm is needed for huge games. All games I saw here that grew over a certain size had fresh blood in them. The tiredness of SW and the "move/IGN" situation cut us off both ressources.

    So what is my conclusion? En vogue arty games? Well, Summer Games, The Darker Tides, Outrageous Fortune . . . YEAH. If you wanna do one of those, now might be your time! People look for new, fresh ideas and they are ready to try. And you won´t be overrun with players. But you might get enough to do your thing.

    And SW?

    Lately we saw Corellia being accepted quite well by our community, really. I know some projects are breeding. Millions of Voices and a new AU. And the perfect game is always the one not surfing on the current trend, but on the next already. So is there a hunger for another big Star Wars game? Is it an accessible game for everybody we need right now? Maybe that it is. Maybe we already have one of those recently added to our roster. Time will tell. But we do not have a lot of games we all share as common ground these days, that is certainly true. It would probably time for another one of those.

    Anyway these are the days of the NSWRPF. For the first time since I arrived here, any game you do there will be rcognized. And any experiment will be given a serious look.
  8. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Fins pretty much sums up my views, so nothing for me to add on that score.

    However, Wings: if you want to refer to the Company of the Crescent Flame as a 'motley crew', be my guest. I just thought I might point out said motley crew includes two clerics who can perform spells like Slay Living, a wizard who can quite literally put you in the middle of an Ice Storm and who also can scry, which is to say, figure out exactly where you are, and a barbarian whose basic operation in life is to make red mists out of people who say "No" to him. :D :D :D And that's before you get to the back line, which includes thieves who can teleport in right behind your back, winged elves that bring death from above, dark elves who are not clones of Drizzt Do'Urden, and a bard who will quite possibly drive you insane. :D :D :D
  9. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    I actually disagree. Thought that would never happen, but for once I disagree with Fin, who usually puts my thoughts in eloquent wording.

    But I think the next big thing won´t be Star Wars and not the "arty" games of original material. The Darker Tides and the SotS sequels are not running so strong, because they are original, I believe. But for others (some day to be explored). It could be argued if SotS hasn´t become a franchise, actually. Yeah, I am aware we have quite a few original games in the making. Sure. Peng´s Steam. TSG´s The Solid Flesh, LordTs Horizon and a few others. And yes, they have really found a home and acceptance here. I am sure they will find players. Original games have become part of our portfolio a lot more than they were three years ago. Yes.

    And Star Wars.

    SW, yes. We are a SW board. But there is a SW burn out. Another Sith? Another game desperatly trying to avoid Sith? Sure, they can work. But their haydays are over I believe. They feed on our fandom and will do so for the foreseeable future, certainly.

    But the great unexplored potential we have are other franchises. Nobody seems to think of them right now. But I believe a Harry Potter game or another Mass Effect would gain a following. Looks how well Ashen did? And the movies of our age have a following. The idea of an Inception game was pretty popular around here. I think we had two in the making. Harry Potter is big, right now. Mass Effect will get a third game and be open for new ideas afterwards. We have a third Batman coming up. D&D games still seem to be popular. I can´t believe we haven´t got ideas for The Game of Thrones or Walking Dead games around. Even more obscure franchises like old RPGs and TV series are possible. The fabled, never happening Zombie game? If ever done and done right it will have a huge following, I believe. I heard rumors of a Resident Evil game with called "T". Could be a winner! Look what comic book games did around here. We have two pretty solid cast games within a year. Excelsior and Origins worked very well for players.

    So I believe the trend of original games will stay, but in time other games will rise. I am pretty sure of that. So I actually believe it is a matter of time until we turn to these games and find our joy in exploring other worlds we love and know.

    Another trend that I see is "limited games". Lea Monde II, Runaways, Rostus. A Summer Place. Even Chessboards. All of those seemed to be attractive because they were very, very limited in their runs. Many did stop abruptly and that is what did not work in this first generation. If this is overcome, I think those games will be very attractive. Already in ABYverse these games were popular. Maybe time for a rebirth of CODEX to discuss how to do such games properly. But if the concept gets tweaked, they will have an impact.

    My two cents. Eurocents, that is. Of course. So about 0.3 dollars :p
  10. Imperial_Hammer Manager Emeritus: RPFs

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2004
    star 5
    Hammer's RPFs Review/Forecast

    Hello all! Lurking around here, I spied this question! Its wonderful, I love it, and I wanted to weigh in on it. Thanks LordT for volunteering this idea!

    *Note: As my activity here is still super-small, please take this post with a grain of salt!*

    So the way I read the history of the RPF, the forums have and will soon exit a very unusual era of history here. The closure of the spigot of new users here was an unprecedented (as far as I know) development, that as LordT said, both dried up the new user / enthusiasm stream and has slowly but surely shrunk the RPFs' active player base.

    With this comes a number of consequences:

    1.) Large level games that capitalize on this stream ceased to function or functioned improperly (hence no flagship style games)
    2.) Overall game quality spiked (as the devoted and skilled remained behind)
    3.) Players grew closer together (as there are less places for them to go)
    4.) Small "artisan" games gained a competitive advantage (as holding players became key to success)
    5.) Game style/ideas homogenized (as the incentives for experimentation lowered)
    6.) The importance of player brand/reputation declined (as "grand projects" became unattainable and players knew each other better)

    The way I few the content shift around here also revolves around this tremendous shift. As the player base grew older and more experienced, pure Star Wars games lost their luster. The changed player base has either already had their fill of "vanilla" Star Wars games, or had no interest in them. I think we underestimate how much appeal the vanilla games have to new users, either in serving as a gentle entry into the RPF or filling the "zomgStarWars!!1!11" factor.

    Yet, I do ultimately side with Sirak here. I am not all that impressed with the creativity LordT spies. While there are plenty of riffs off of Star Wars, the really risky and exciting stuff is in the NSWRPF, which still languishes behind its older sister (though recently not as much). And franchises yes, continue to be underutilized. Not only Harry Potter, but also Lord of the Rings and other epic universes. There is a lot of good stuff out there that is lying dormant.

    But much of this is for the past. We have a move coming here folks, and things are going to change again!

    My prognosis therefore is as follows:

    Short-Term Games: These will be the key for the immediate future. Both to hold players over until and during the move. If I were to start a game right now I would not plan for anything running for more than a month. Because when the move hits, there is going to be a two week disruption in services (as far as I know) that will muck up a well-calibrated long-type game. This holds even more true during the two week disruption on the temporary board, where there will be no games outside of those started from scratch.

    Looking on the longer term, things will hopefully heat up again when the move is completed. Then the RPFs will move into an environment more like how it was a few years ago. Stipulating how this will work is tricky.

    Slow Scenario: It could be that the internet at large has no interest in "restarting" the JC as a whole. This is a low inertia scenario where the inflow of new users is minimal. The slice of this new stream will not too unlike what it was before we lost the ability to get new users, with a few people trickling in here and there.

    Under the slow scenario, the overall environment of the RPF will not be much different than it is now. There may be new opportunities for smaller-scale flagship/larger games. And there will be new ideas that flow from the new blood that will enrich the community. Under this scenario, continuing the small scale games that are in vogue would be a good strategy. These would "fit the RPF best" in that i
  11. LordTroepfchen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2007
    star 4
    Okay, Sirak disagrees with Fin. The creator of market-theory comes back to discuss the topic of future games with us. And I am unprepared to join this great discussion.

    1. I simply haven´t had a deep enough look at the RPF, recently. What I know is that these boards will probably depend on GL and his next move. News about a Boba Fett movie or an animated sequel trilogy and sudden news about SW Underworld . . . and isn´t it lovely how they say it "slipped out" as if journalists wouldn´t write to Lucasfilm for confirmation before printing it? Hell, New York times had that rumors. They are testing the water. Question is for what? Last time I had that vibe we got Clone Wars and that hasn´t helped making us popular. If we get something big and shiny though, these boards will profit from it. And then the next big thing will be SW, because people will come looking for SW here.

    2. If not it will depend on our own strength to survive. And I have strong doubts against all who think we cannot do it ourselves. We aren´t bound to the EUC or even the JC anymore. We are just with them on one site having friendly relations. Many of us, probably the majority, is here for RPing only. Therefore we are like almost any other post-by-post RPing site. And if SW leaves us hungry, we will have the menu of someone else . . . or starve to death.

    3. Original Games? Franchises? Good question. I think it is one where the answer cannot be easily predicted. One great game can change it all. I think the Original Game idea was niche not too long ago. Now it has become the second leg NSWRPF stands on. Sirak has a nice collection of names up there of games with no frnachise to back them. Then again, why not franchises? Potter, LotR, Mass Effect, Walking Dead, My Little Pony 2. Dammit, we got more of those than GMs to do them! Why not? What I doubt is the return of the flagship.

    4. Flagships. Yeah. I see how they make sense now. I was once opposed to the "reduced" storytelling they offered and the compromises they asked of us. Not too long ago Sarge221 made one hell of an impressive rant though for our games to be inaccessible. And yeah, I think I have to admit it changed my views. But players tastes have changed a lot and like Saintheart stated in his wonderful interview, what was brilliant once might not be accepted as brilliant today. Not because it got any less amazing, but simply because it once served needs no longer dominant. In a time when the promise of a good story makes the ultimate recruiting tool around here, where limited games seem to serve players purpose best and where we see big gamex tumble and small ones grow . . . nobody waits for a game for everyone anymore. Everybody looks for a game perfect for him.

    5. Where does this put us?

    Critics could say: We lost our common ground.

    I say: We became more complex.


    And that is a good thing. The next wave of games will acknowledge it. I guess after the move we will indeed see where this new era takes us . . .
  12. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    On a tangential note, on LordTroepfchen's item (1), George Lucas has said in a recent interview he's semi-retiring now that Red Tails is done. More specifically, he's giving the game of blockbuster moviemaking away - he's apparently going back to "indie" films, whatever that means when you have a bank balance the size of a small planet. There was one bittersweet aspect about the interview, which seems to be that he's fatigued from all the complaining -- he does, for whatever reason, like to tinker with the films again and again, and supposedly each time it gets closer and closer to his vision of what his universe looks like. He then expresses how every change he makes, he seems to tick off someone, or large groups of people, and that ultimately that's pretty wearing when, really, they're his films and they're made how he wanted them made. And to be fair the guy is in his seventies -- even making fan films is exhausting, so I can understand it if he wanted to finally do some other stuff with his life.

    If that's right, then I suspect that any big SW coming will be much more corporate efforts from Lucasfilm than driven by Uncle George. That has both positives and negatives -- fresh writers, fresh blood, but at the same time it'll be much more done for the money than the art as such. Me, I'd be willing to bet five bucks we won't see a SW live action TV series. In economic terms, it makes more sense to just make another movie; a TV series costs a hell of a lot more money than a movie does, and especially these days when the Internet basically is destroying TV across the board you'd have to get a lot of sponsorship to justify it. And let's remember SW, and scifi in general, is still -- still -- a niche market as far as they empty suits at TV Land are concerned. Hence why they went animated: they get the right target audience (young 'uns) at a fraction of the normal cost of a TV series. The fact that George seems to have had enough would be plenty of reason to take the wind out of the sails at Lucasfilm for a TV series, I think.

    Getting back to the point, my personal prediction is that we're not in for another big, big surge of users coming here for the Star Wars anytime soon. Not unless a new film is made, I think. The release in 3D doesn't count -- especially given they've decided to run 'em all chronologically and The Phantom Movie comes first. So I think Lord T's assessment that (a) we're on our own and (b) many of us are here just for the RP, not the EUC, is an astute observation.

    Me personally, I'd dearly love more system-based roleplaying in here; more D&D games, sure, but pretty much anything from Vampire: The Masquerade to FATAL :D if it comes to that. Pound for pound I think you'll find more system-based roleplayers out on the wilds of the Internet than you do freeformers, which is not to hold anything against the latter. Might be we try and attract more system-based players to the forums and let them see how we operate and how we play in here.
  13. Sir_Draco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2007
    star 4
    Ten reasons why not to discuss FATAL.


    Actually I think Saintheart is true about the System-based gamers. Although I think not even the new site will allow you to integrate dice-rollers and such, will they? Because those are quite common and usefull on other sites. Anyway, they are considerable in numbers. I have seen SW SAGA groups on sites, that were almost as big as TFN. Well, at least bigger than any game we had here in a long time. Getting some of those here might be good. They are experienced and often dedicated players. Also other freeformers are out there. But how attract them? I often feel this board is unaware other RPers are out there and vice versa.

    Anyway, what will be our future games? I love that question and I am nowhere near an answer, because I have not really dwelled enough in this pool since I had to leave last year. But what I can say is that I did two franchise games of things I loved and I got players both times. I did not need to struggle or advertise a lot. People signed up. So a franchise that is well known and an OP polished and accessible enough (I had both my OPs in the secret T-yards, where LordT pimps your OP if you know the secret word) people seem to enjoy a trip into something else than SW, be it the 80ties action movies or Mass Effect.

    And these games certainly have an advantage over Original Games. They are cheaper. Erm . . . I mean easier to generate, uphold and feed with material. I could have an Dead Space game up in three hours. Soundtrack and creepy pics included. Fin needed a year for SotS. That is a good reason why a GM should try his hands in his favourite franchise, I think. So this will be an advantage in the battle for future dominance over these boards, I believe.
  14. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Which, again, on a tangent, brings up another topic I'd like to add to the list...

    1. Players - the unknown factor (LordT)
    2. Behind The Scenes Featurette
    3. Multimedia. Images; youtube links; game soundtracks. Do they work? Do they detract from the text-based experience? In more nuts and bolts terms, where do you go to look for yours?
    4. ...

  15. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    I'm not entirely sure I agree with all the posts above.

    I do agree with Imp's analysis of the effect of us no longer having any new users. Difficult to say for sure, but I'm leaning towards either the move having a jump-start effect with old users returning, everyone who's been holding off on starting new projects start them, and so on so forth. Not so sure about a 'backlog' of new users as signups were already drying up before IGN made them impossible, but it's certainly possible as well.

    But even so, I don't think limited-run games or artsy games or even system-based games will necessarily be successful due to the nature of being limited/artsy/system-based. I think (and this ties back to the discussion we had last week) such games have the problem of being too new, too unfamiliar, and therefore too difficult to play in. Certainly that's not been the case for Sins of the Saints or Tide of Flames - but I think those games were (are) exceptionally well-constructed and just generally incredible games to both read and play in. That was what brought them across the line, not the fact that they were original or based on D&D.

    We've had original games here before, and they flopped. We've had people talk about making another system-based game here for ages, but nobody's ever done it (or at least not for very long). Why, I don't know. Possibly they're just difficult and daunting for a GM too.

    So ... what do I think will be successful nowadays, then? The same sort of games that have always been successful. Those with a good hook, an interesting story, a realistic (or believable, at least) setting, and an attentive GM.


    (As for a dice roller: I campaigned madly for the inclusion of a dice roller mod on our new forums, but that was when we were going to go with vB. Not so sure if Xenforo has such a thing available.)
  16. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Well, yesterday evening in chat a short exchange about this happened (which I have been authorized to reproduce here).

    GM 1: So I really think the artsy games won´t make it.
    GM 2: I think you are wrong there.
    GM 1: No, seriously. They are to hard to enter, they are to alien. Don´t overestimate SotS. It was brilliant. But it might be a one-time thing. Believe me in the long run our mainstream games will overcome your artsy ones.
    GM 2: Nope.
    GM 1: What do you mean nope?
    GM 2: We got something you haven´t, my friend. And that is an invaluable advantage in competition you guys totally underestimate.
    GM 1: And . . . what would that be? Please don´t say creativity.
    GM 2: The Stayers.
    GM 1: The stayers? Is that a Porn?
    GM 2: I mean it. Who recruits the players who hang around? Who inspires longlivety? Who has constant post income, so to say? And why is that? I can tell you. You don´t miss an Episode of LOST. You don´t miss Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire. But hell, who watches every CSI? Nice show, but I really can tune in every forthweek and never miss a thing.
    GM 1: We have long running SW games?
    GM 2: Yeah, they´re great. But they do not share their "stayers" with you. They keep ´em. That leaves few "stayers" for mainstream games. And that is why original ones will not go under. If the right GM makes the right kinda game . . . they might soon have their best of times!


    Then they discussed the potential of a (not so) secret project (obviously) which is kinda original, but rooted in very familiar settings. I watched while watching the first epsiode of "Jekyll". Anyway, GM 2 has a point there. The games that were created in the last two years and stayed were quite a few original ones. Hell, I was told yesterday Darker Tides hasn´t lost a single player? So we will see if this changes back to the old days, but right now that is an advantage, certainly. I still believe though the same crowd could be turned to other franchises, if done right.

    And I agree with Xany that Darker Tide and The Sins of the Saints don´t owe their success to being original. They are simply incredibly well composed games.

    Which brings up another point. We have a few very influential GMs of which some on the forseeable future will probably have to tackle new games. Whatever they decide to do, I strongly believe that a "great game" can influence our thinking a lot.
  17. Lukes_Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 3
    When comes to games of the future and player participation I think several of the scenarios given are very possible, but I think with the realease of new star wars material and other fun things their is going to be an influx of people signing up for everything Star Wars or not. The problem with RPG is that some people can do and like and other just don't it is never easy to break into something especially when you are unfamiliar with it. So I think that the best way to increase the number of people participating is to make scenarios and games that speak to more people and have great mass appeal. It would be nice to have a working dice system. I believe it would also be nice if we ran a beginners in RPG sort of deal where it was fine to make mistakes and teach people how to do it. I personally have been staying away because of work obligations and that I don't want to join something or create something and then have the boards go down. So in my opinion people are just wait for the new boards so they can finally sign in again and have fun. On another note Some time far in the future I would like to talk about why games work, what types of games have done well, and how to gain interest in a new idea that has not been tried that would be extremely interesting.
  18. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    About once a year someone tries to make a Beginner's RPG. It never quite works out. Either it ends up getting taken over by "oldbies" (which is not a bad thing in itself, but does run contrary to its purpose) or it fizzles out. Just like any other game, in other words. I don't see the point.

    Rejecting new players hasn't been the done thing for several years, anyway. I do know of GMs who have rejected players based on writing ability (upon being sent a CS riddled with errors and netspeak, they asked for a writing sample, and the prospective player never came back - which was quite clever, I thought) but never one who basically said "Sorry, I don't take beginners." Hell, I know GMs who have quite deliberately taken a chance on new players, and seen that gamble rewarded.

    Mind you, I see the appeal of the idea ... it's a game where we can Teach People How To RP! But it never works out that way, because the RPF isn't a school, we aren't teachers, and anyway this is something you just learn by doing.
  19. DarkLordoftheFins Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2007
    star 4
    I think Sarge´s rant about being accessible is really what "attracting newbies" is about. We need games that are not only for our "specialists", but for everyone to join. classic stories, no knowledge of games that came before attached. In that sense a "beginner-game" that we need would be more in the line of 128 ABY, AFAS, TORR, who all had their share of newbies who joined willingly and with great enthusiasm. I personally think the newbies are the key to all great games.

    Anyway, what worked well in the past can actually be analysed through the awards. I don´t think any of our bigger games are missing their. If so only by bad luck. The award to the "game of the season" is usually obligational. But this info is probably a treacherous one, as games that worked in the past failed in the past and might not be a good idea to repeat. How to sell a new idea is rather simple though. I strongly believe only one thing works, really. You need a KOP. A killer-OP. It is like sending a script in. The first page counts, everything else will only happen, when you got your reader then.

    Am I straying away from the topic? Not so in the slightest! Because I think there is wisdom in the posts above. What will be the "next big thing" is much about what we will actually do around here. One great OP can change things in a community as small as this. One GM who creates a big game out of an idea can influence games for month to come. So if someone creates the next big thing and it is Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls (lots of good stories there) or Original or Harry Potter . . . that will be a major influence on what we play here. Diversity is a luxury at our size of a board. But whatever has an impact usually has one for quite some time. Only remember player-cabs, limited runs and story-focussed RPs. They all had their hype and fall while I was here since 2007. Whatever comes next, will . . . or has already . . . begun with one OP someone is working on right now.
  20. Sir_Draco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2007
    star 4
    I could not agree more. Tell someone what a TAG is and what Godmodding is and that´s it. there isn o fgurther training needed. Everything else files under style. What you can do to improve RPing, if you seriously think it is that important to you, is improve your writing. After TAGGING and NO GODMODING and the very short NO ADVANCED GODMODDING you are pretty much done.

    GMing that is what could need a training game. I think you can learn a bit more there. But who would play in it? And what could be learned in an laboratory? I guess not much.

    Well, I heard about GMs who did never take newbies and I have at least one PM which is actually so stupid to say they turn me down, because they don´t know me. But if anybody thought the idea that lay behind "player-caps" fooled anybody . . . he is obviously the only one fooled by it himself. Player-cab games turned out to have a lot oldbies in them. No newbies, moost of the time. But that is actually fine. Not every game has to be open to every player. I wouldn´t make that promise anymore, should I ever feel the need to embarass myself with another attempt to GM.

    What Fin says above (and he seems to quote Sarge there) is true though. You need to have a game that is accessible. Insidergames and sequels are nice, but to have a game around that in some capacity is open to join by anybody, because it is easy to understand and even easier to imagine yourself in . . . is a special quality for itself. We need such games. Every board needs them. They are the starting point of any growth.
  21. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 6
    Rejection based on familiarity, while undeniably silly and frustrating/rage inducing, isn't entirely out there, though; if you know your players, you know what to expect, after all.

    Player caps are tricky; they limit your cast of useable characters, so if someone drops and you're in a situation where that'll derail a few things, then you either need to roll with it and find some way to bring in a new character that doesn't feel too forced (or maybe you just yank the bandage off and get the sting out of the way quickly) or you need to keep going with one less player.
  22. SirakRomar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2007
    star 4
    Before we switch topics, I actually had a thought on this one. I think to predict the future of the boards is the actually to predict the future age of our users. The age is very important factor. We basically have young people here, people who say they are older than their age reveals and then people who are actually old. Basically the usual range of people between 15 and 45 you can expect. but with every one of those ages come certain tastes. For me it unthinkable to play Transformers or a game about Dragon Riders anymore. Man, SW needs a good shot of nostalgia to taste good, really. And a few users are older than I am. I expect they simply do not go to the movies that are sold to teenagers. Therefore they have a different taste. And a generation of these players had changed the look of our gamescape pretty much. So, if our future wave of players (I hope for) is younger we could see a lot younger franchises. If they turn out more and more 30+ people, I think we will see games with a more serious take on things. None of them is better or worse then the other. But games are successful because of various tastes.
  23. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    That was a cracking little discussion, and I have nothing much to add except the few remarks below.

    Saint: Consider "motley crew" retracted, and replaced with various synonyms for "pantheon of badassery". :D

    Imp: As ever, a real pleasure to see you pop by. Personally I would love to see the return of strategy games. You know I still hold a candle for Kingdom Wars! ;)

    And an insightful analysis of the RPF's future. I am optimistic that the Fast Scenario will play out when we return. In fact, I was convinced that The Old Republic would bring a huge wave of fresh blood to the RPF, and to the boards in general. And then the whole user registration problem happened. :(

    It'll be interesting to see if TOR actually does end up providing any sort of boost. There's no question that it has the potential to. After all, they have dedicated RP servers, which means there's a whole lot more people who are RPing in the SW universe right now. TFN is the biggest SW online community. It wouldn't be that much of a step for a few of those people to find us.

    L_A: Good point on the beginner's game. It's one of those ideas, like Xany says, that comes around every now and then. It seems to me that the new boards would be the perfect time for another attempt. As for your discussion suggestion, that's a very broad range of topics. If you can narrow it down to something specific, I'd be happy to add it to our little list.

    Sirak: You know, I never even thought about the relevance of age before. But you're right, it certainly has an impact on the RPF's tastes at any given time. I think this would form a good foundation for a GM Survey that I was planning for the new boards...

    Okay, and on we go. As ever, a bit of overlap between discussions is fine if you got something left that you just gotta get out.


    [image=http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//universe3zx/images/thumb/4/46/DrDoom_Main.jpg/406px-DrDoom_Main.jpg]
    Winged's Weekly Rounds

    The Operating Table

    This week's topic is a new addition to the queue, but there are special circumstances which require us to discuss it straight away. It is, of course, about The Move. There has been some preliminary discussion about possible mini-games or specials that might be launched while we're on the temporary boards.

    Is it possible to design a game that is intended to last only two or three weeks?

    And if so, why hasn't it been done before?


    The Waiting Room

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    3. Disc: Multimedia
    4. Disc: GM Techniques and Secrets
    5. Feature: The Games That Never Were
    6: OP: Lukes_Apprentice
    7. (your topic here)

    GM Of The Week...is DarkLordoftheFins, for his part in shaping some truly spectacular events in the Sins series! (bonus point for his plan for a Sins "special" on the temp boards)

    Did You Know...that dedicated dueling threads have been present since the inception of the forum, and that the EUC-RPF Dueling Tournament was the first to win a Best RPG award?
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  24. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    Okay! :D This is actually one of my favourite theoretical subjects: real-life pacing and RPGs.

    I say theoretical because I've had next to no experience doing it :p but based on observation and some basic mathematics, I think it can be done, though it will take really tight planning and a lot of quick posting.

    First, let's count posts. Any decent GM can update once a week, but that's just not fast enough for the time frame we're looking at - that gives you only 2-3 posts to wrap up a game in, 3-4 if you count the OP. Updating every day is probably also not feasible given time zones. So let's say you decide to update every 2-3 days for 2-3 weeks. That gives you an average of 14 GM posts to wrap up a game.

    And it also has to be the kind of game that can inspire players to post every 2-3 days for 3-4 weeks.

    So ... what kind of game can establish itself and wrap up in 14 posts? I would say a small adventure-esque story with a clear goal would have a decent shot at this. If you build upon an established game (so you don't have to spend valuable time establishing characters) so much the better, but it's probably possible to do an entirely fresh game if you recruit beforehand.

    As for why it hasn't been done before, I think we've tried, but the time pressure to complete it has never really been there. Previously it's been like ... so what if you planned to complete in two weeks but you took a month? Timelines were all theoretical anyway.
  25. LordTroepfchen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2007
    star 4
    I have actually time and again considered trying this mini-form. It is very close to White Wolfs RPing via chat that was so successful in the early 2000s.

    This is an interesting one. Although the question is obviously, what exactly you try to do. A whole game, in terms of something with a long continued storyline? No, never. But a short situation-based game can certainly be done. It is not unheard of to do such things. It actually regulary happens when finales come up. 133 ABY had over a hundred posts in it´s first two weeks and then slowed down and it speeded up in the finale, which Fin told us would last three weeks and it did end two days early. Sirak, Mitth and me brought our story to close on SotF within the last three weeks. We all did at least one update a day, often even more. And I remember the Summer Challenge. Me and Sirak did a mini-arc in a Glasgow Club for one of the challenges. It wasn´t more than twelve posts, telling a tiny story in itself. I remember Xany and Sey giving two young dogs the same treatment. Essentially played ministories.

    Updates, loads of updates are the key to good finales. Players need to post a lot. GMs need to update a lot.

    Posts. Under the same premise a two weeks game could possibly work. Daily updates I think would be obligational, maybe keeping them really short even more than daily updates. To move things along, even if only with a three line update, you should leave the usual path of GMing that tries to describe thing in detail. If you find more time, even better. The usual posting sequence is 3 updates and thre responses is one scene.
    Intro GM, intro player, problem by GM, solution by player, result by GM, reflection by player. 14 Updates and forteen responses per player could then do about three sequences and an intro and outro. That´s it. Not too much room, I´d say, but I have seen less.

    Story. The story would need to be fitting. Nothing to GM heavy, but character-driven, so updating players need not to wait necessary for the GM. It needs to be strong incentive to players and the same time a good thing to play out. But different formats come to mind. One meeting between characters? One fight? A duel? A battle? Or maybe an in media res - against the clock scenario? A simple dialogue could work, but that is probably very close to a chat then. You can build up little.

    Players. You need players ready to post. The more, the better. They need to be into this. As a GM you need to time very carefully and that is only possible, if you do rely on posting speed. You also need them to be roughly on the same time with players, as back-and-forth will need to happen, probably at least once.

    GMing. Minimalize, time and deliver. An OP that sets it up and a game that does not derail or lead into uncontrolled territory. Actually recruiting will have to happen before the two weeks, as a week long application-process won´t work, certainly. Characters need to come fleshed out.

    The Game. Well, to make people do it and to make people stick to it for two weeks, means you need a hell of an attactive game. Maybe provide a finale to a beloved game that died to soon? I am sure many would jump at a Seuqel to . . . ManCubs or a SotS spin-off. Characters established, story well known. Players there. An original story? Needs even more GM preparation and simply needs to be good.

    In the end one could wonder, if not all game consist of many of those minigames.
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