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Reference The Game Group

Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource' started by Winged_Jedi, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2002
    Sounds good. However, just remember, at the end of the day, it is your game. Don't base it completely off of the input from others, otherwise it won't be any fun for you.
     
  2. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Of course, with that old system it wouldn't have been any fun to run anyway, since it would've been a constant OOC battle over the combat results.
     
  3. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Yeah, that's one of the mods I made. In the original system (from the other game) it was to quote the GM...'points are points are points'. If you have a 400 point ship, then nothing a 2-300 pointer does will beat you. I was trying to bring in some more RP aspects to it.

    Obviously that backfired horribly, so I'm still working on a new system using those links Saint gave me, or (depending on what works best) the D20 system. If anyone has a recommendation there it would help.:D

    (and honestly, I came in here expecting to have to modify the thing...my ego can take blows when I did something wrong. Much better to have a game that works and is fun for everyone involved than one that makes me (and the players) want to bang their head into a wall. My ego taking blows from having to modify the thing non-withstanding.:p )
     
  4. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Okay...since I have no experience with the d20 system...need to call in some help on that.

    I'm thinking of taking Fin's advice, and splitting the stats up in a:

    Ship
    Crew
    Commander

    Type thing...but I'm not sure how to do that and match it with d20 dice rolls. Any advice?
     
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Perhaps a rudimentary point allocation system?

    Say, for example, you give your players ten points to distribute freely amongst those attributes. Their crew score provides a bonus to determining who attacks first each round, since it represents combat efficiency. The commander score provides a bonus to determining how much damage is done, since tactical maneuvering can increase damage output. And then the ship score determines how much damage the ship can take.

    So, using that 10 point distribution, say I've got
    Crew - 3
    Ship - 4
    Commander - 3

    and say my opponent has got
    Crew - 2
    Ship - 2
    Commander - 6
    because they think the best defense is a good offense.

    To determine who gets to go first, I roll 1d20+3 (My crew score) and compare that to my opponent's roll of 1d20+2 (Their crew score). Whoever gets the higher total goes first. I get 20+3 = 23 because I'm much better at rolling in hypothetical scenarios than I am in real life, and my opponent gets 18 + 2 = 20. Close, but no cigar.

    Since I won the crew roll for this round, I get to attack first - this is of strategic importance, since that means my opponent will take damage before I do. I make a roll of 1d20+3 (My commander score) against my opponent's roll of 1d20+2 (Their ship score). I get 15, they get 16. Since they beat my roll, they take no damage. Things don't look good for Vice Admiral Ramzazov.

    Next my opponent gets to attack - 1d20+6 (Their commander score) versus my paltry 1d20+4 (My ship score). A brutal 23 rips into my meager 11. What does that mean? Well, let's say my ship score x 10 is my hit points, and the difference between the commander roll and the ship roll divided by 2, rounded down, is damage.

    So my hitpoints were at 40, since I did repairs before starting this fight. I take (23-11)/2 = 6 damage, reducing my hitpoints to 34. Then we make new crew rolls and start the whole process over.

    That's one way you could do it, I guess. The alternative is to use the actual Star Wars d20/Star Wars d6/GURPS rules for ship combat, in which case you'll need to familiarize yourself with that relevant ruleset.
     
  6. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Hmm...its late tonight, but I'll look over that ruleset tomorrow and see which works better.

    I'll get my choice up whenever I get done with it.

    EDIT:

    And thanks for the help Ramza...makes A LOT more sense now...
     
  7. Sir_Draco

    Sir_Draco Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Seriously, Ramza is a Math student, he actually thinks these rules are made to be used :p

    The simple way to use these stats Fin provided is this:

    The Ship:

    Battle: (each 1 to 10)
    Crew -
    Ship -
    Commander -

    Total Combat Skill + 1d10 (means as a random element your ship get ONE ten sided dice in addition of the score, representing good or bad luck)

    Outcome:

    Structure -Your ship points now used as pure structure indicator
    Damage - Here you adda dcie, you have diceroller under "More Options" after you do a post.




    Example:

    Every element gets a 1 to 10

    "The Tester" Light Carrak Cruiser

    Crew - 8 (we´re talking about an elite mission)
    Ship - 2 (these guys only got a Carrak)
    Commander - 8 (still, Thrawn´s cousin is having command, so . . . )

    Total: 18 (8+2+8)

    Structure - 100 (Carraks aren´t that strong)
    Damage - 2d10


    runs into an old Venator the Empire uses for training recruits. Oh man, very, very old ship, but powerful still. Bad luck!

    "The Trainer" Venator Class Ship

    Crew - 2 (these guys really are basically trained only)
    Ship - 7 (it´s old, not very well in shape, but hell it is a battleship)
    Commander - 5 (the guy is a bit rusty after years at the academy, but hell he still knows a thing or two)

    Total: 15 (2+7+5)

    Structure: 550 (armor, old but thick)
    Damage: 5d10 (got bigger guns)

    Now you do three rolls. First two to see who wins.

    The Tester: Total Skill 18. Plus 1d10 (one dice ten sided that means). I roll a 7 (just as an example), which leads me to a 25.
    The Trainer: Total Skill 15. Plus 1d10. I roll a 5. Well 25.

    The round goes to the Elite crew of the Carrak. They just reacted quciker, I guess. trained and disciplined and all that. So, what is the damage?

    Third roll. Damage of the Carrak is 2d10. I roll a 5 and a 7. Oh well, nice 13 damage!

    Structure of The Trainer is 550. Minus 13 that is 537 left.


    You see the Carrak is the better ship, because it got the trained crew? But sooner or later the trainer will win a round of the battle and then the higher damage of a Venator will pay off. BUT the Carrak, with it´s better crew can probably make a run and escape and it´s better crew will allow them to succeed with it . . .

    My idea of a system. Easy, slick and quick to use, I think. Actually a modified system of this will come into play in The Forever War as an option for players to do PVP. The structure and damamge thing needs tweaking probably, if you do it like above, you will need to many rounds to end a fight.
     
  8. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    No division? What's the point? :p
     
  9. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Hmm…yeah, I’ll use the system Draco thought up (thanks for that by the way…certainly makes my job easier:D ).

    Now then…I’ll go through a few ship examples to see how they fit in this system:

    Imperial Class (Mark 1):

    Structure: 500 (it’s the biggest ship in this game...I figure giving it 500 works)

    Damage: 7d10
    **********

    Victory Class (Mark 1)

    Structure: 425

    Damage: 5d10
    *********
    Venator Class

    Structure: 450 (it’s bigger than a Vic-Star)

    Damage: 4d10 (but it’s more of a carrier than a battleship)
    ***********
    Dreadnaught Class

    Structure: 350

    Damage: 4d10 (a handful of these can take an ISD…I figure this fits)
    *********
    Carrack Class

    Structure: 250 (weak or not, it’s still a cruiser)

    Damage: 3d10
    ***********
    Nebulon-B

    Structure: 175 (BIG weakness in the long center section)

    Damage: 2d10
    ***********
    CR-90 Corvette

    Structure: 100

    Damage: 1d10 (not a real warship)

    And there we go...obviously I'm not doing EVERY ship since that would be a little overkill. I'll work up the more random ships depending on if people choose to use them or not. And it is still an option to pick a Starfighter, though you'd have to be based on a fellow players ship, or an OC ship since a single Snubfighter isn't going to do much against anything bigger than a Corvette.

    Never mind...I found it...
     
  10. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Click more options on any post you've made.

    Also, as a head's up, maximum damage output in your allotment is 70 versus maximum hit point allotment 500. That's a minimum of 8 rounds of combat, which is generally considered a bad idea - especially since the average length of combat will be 14.3 rounds, and that's only looking at the top class. The averages actually get worse on a similar level ship to ship comparison at lower levels - a fight between two Corvettes will typically last 20 rounds.
     
  11. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Yeah, I found it. And it shows my luck sucks in that I got a four.:p
     
  12. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    In that case, I'll lower the ship points:

    ISD: 200

    VSD: 150

    Ven-Star: 175

    Dred: 125

    Carrack: 100

    Neb: 75

    Corvette: 30

    Does that work better?

    EDIT: Of course, that ignores a whole wealth of other ship classes, but like I said...that will be worked up later on when people pick ships.
     
  13. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Again - not really. I'd argue that what you want to aim for is something like a consistent seven round average in equivalent matchups - by which I mean a ship's hitpoints should be something like 7*(Ship's maximum damage/2). Though if you want to get super technical the average on a d10 is 5.5 and thus you're looking for 7*(Number of d10s)*6 HP if you want to skew a bit high.

    From there, you should go from top to bottom, using a rough doubling algorithm - a ship 4 levels below another ship should take 14 rounds to destroy the bigger ship. The end result is it takes a Corvette something like 21 rounds to destroy an ISD but it takes an ISD like 2 rounds to destroy a Corvette, which is what you're aiming for.
     
  14. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    So (assuming I'm doing this right...I'm horrible at math and I'm assuming the * means multiply) it would be something like:

    Corvette: 1d10 damage translates to 42 hit points (7*1*6)

    Dred: 168 hit points (7*4*6)

    Ven-Star: 168? Well it has the same d10 as a Dred...probably should raise that somewhat since its a bigger ship...so how about 7*4*7? Which would be 196.

    VSD: 210 (7*5*6)

    ISD: 294 (7*7*6)
     
  15. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Eh, still not quite - yes that's the right formula, but damage levels need to be adjusted going from big to small to prevent things from getting weird. Like, right now it takes a Corvette 49 rounds to take down an ISD and it takes an ISD one round to take down a Corvette - which, depending on what a round means, might not be accurate to what we're accustomed to from the films. It also takes a VSD 10 rounds to take on an ISD but it takes an ISD 5 rounds to take on a VSD.

    ... And if you're bad at math, I've got to say, this is all kind of an odd choice for a style of game to run.
     
  16. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    I exaggerated slightly...its more that Math isn't my best subject. I'm perfectly good at it, just not a genius by any means.

    And remember my original system was the point based one, I wasn't anticipating it getting this math heavy. Though I am enjoying figuring things out (since half the fun is in building the thing).

    So back to work on getting this working...I'll either edit this post or put up a new one when I DO get it working.

    EDIT: Ironically enough, that actually fits a VSD vs. ISD fight rather well. Maybe not canonically, but for the game. Still working on it though.
     
  17. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Lets see here...doubling...

    Corvette: 42 with basic formula...doubled would be 84. Would that be more like a 'two rounds for ISD to kill it' thing?

    Also...my head hurts...:p
     
  18. DarkLordoftheFins

    DarkLordoftheFins Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Again it is probably about simplification. Damages should be 1d10 to 6d10 and Ships from 70 to 250 points. As you see a Star Destroyer doing 6d10 will rip apart a 70 point ship pretty quickly. A 250 point ship will hold itself in battle for quite some time. Nothing math-heavy about it.So I think Draco´s system is pretty flawless in that regard. Even a snubfightrer can do damage (via heavy crew skills), but never blow up a ship, because it only have 1d10 damage to do with it´s torpedoes. A Star Destroyer would be the beast, still. Everything else is put in between.
     
  19. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    That would probably work better anyway. I'm not a dunce when it comes to math, but I also haven't learned all I can/can't apply what I DO know as well as I would like.

    So to keep things simple (though the math could give you a headache if you look close)

    ISD:
    250
    6d10

    VSD:
    200
    5d10

    Dred:
    175
    4d10

    Corvette:
    70
    2d10 (to be fair)

    Snubfighter
    negligible structure
    1d10
     
  20. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    No, I mean you need to be adjusting the damage and hitpoints accordingly.

    Think about it kind of like this, if we think of ISD as our "base" unit:

    ISD - 100% Health, 100% Damage
    VSD - 86% Health, 86% Damage
    Ven-Star - 72% Health, 72% Damage
    Dred - 58% Health, 58% Damage
    Carrack - 44% Health, 44% Damage
    Neb - 30% Health, 30% Damage
    Corvette - 16% Health, 16% Damage

    So the ISD does... whatever we damn well feel like, damage wise. It's the scale on which all other units are based.

    For the sake of my own sanity, I'll adjust the numbers a bit: It does 10d10 damage. That makes its average damage 55 - 60 since we're rounding up for these calculations. So its HP is 7*60 = 420.

    We have:
    ISD HP = 420
    ISD Damage = 10d10
    ISD Average Damage = 60

    That's our baseline.

    Next, we look at the VSD. It needs to be at .86 the ISD's capabilities. We use average damage for scaling, so 60*.86 = 51.6 -> 52 since we always round up. The closest round number of dice giving that average damage is 9d10 (54) so we use that.

    We have:
    VSD HP = 9*6*7 = 378
    VSD Damage = 9d10
    VSD Average Damage = 54

    Now, we're going to do the Ven-Star. We disregard the VSD. So it needs to be at .72 the ISD's capabilities. 60*.72 = 43.2 -> 44 since we always round up. The closest round number of dice giving that average damage is 7d10 (42), so we use that.

    We have:
    Ven-Star HP = 7*6*7 = 294
    Ven-Star Damage = 7d10
    Ven-Star Average Damage = 42

    You keep repeating this process for each ship, and that's all there is to it.

    Fortunately the math will never get this ugly during gameplay since it'll just be d10 rolls. :p
     
  21. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Okay...that makes A LOT more sense. Thanks for that Ramza...I'll work up the math for the rest of the ships later (got to do something for college first)
     
  22. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I respectfully disagree - holistic approaches are the enemy here, because they'll do nothing but introduce exploit loopholes, which players will either take up intentionally or accidentally. Then people will have a sneaking suspicion that something is unbalanced, but due to a lack of sufficient crunch there won't be a good rationale for defending your implementation. That'll either lead to impromptu bug fixes that further unbalance the game or long arguments - or both.
     
  23. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Okay...since I feel like an idiot (this is what happens when I don't get my coffee darn it!:p )...how do we get the average for the dice? Because a Dred would be 35 damage, which I THINK fits best with 6d10, but I'm not sure. Other than that, I think I have the system down and can start crunching numbers for the rest of the ships.

    And then I can FINALLY move on to the OP.:p
     
  24. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I'm using 6 for the average, since the real average is 5.5 but I implemented a blanket round up standard. Personal preference. :p
     
  25. DarkLordoftheFins

    DarkLordoftheFins Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2007
    I don´t see where in the system I have introduced you could possibly find a loophole? Actually math-guys like you haven´t even got a point where they can go looking for one, which is what simplicity about. 'You roll and if you hit you do damage. If you loose the other guy does do damage. I know this isn´t roleplaying state of art, but seriously, it might be sellable in one post. I looked at your post above, saw a vague familiarity with old d20 SW and then was already gone, because I found no drive to read into it . . . a player lost.

    I know a few RPing system, but I have yet to find a system that needs any more than to compare PvP to recruit players.