Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Ewan, Jul 23, 2009.
So it was racist of you to suggest races share a culture?
No, it's incorrect to state that a race shares a culture. I was incorrect. I admitted my mistake and I have amended my statement. I did not make a willful offensive statement about a race or members about a race, like you did.
I'm still waiting to here what your idea of an "open and honest discussion" about race involves.
'Race' is a social construct. As such the concept of 'race' forms part of a shared culture to the extent that social conceptions of 'race' are institutionalised and are subject to change and paradigm shifts within a given society. In days past, 'race' was a signifier of intelligence, potential, capacity, aptitude and character. Nowadays, as an enlightened society, we have institutionalised conceptions of race more along traditional lines of ethnicity and national origins rather than an as a stereotype which represents a person's inherent worth and value.
However, social conceptions of race still have meaning amongst certain sectors of society, for example, I believe there is still a tendency among the institutions of law enforcement to assign behavioural stereotypes to 'race' which effectively leads to racial profiling. Some of the studies posted by Jedi Merkurian support this I think.
Trying to move this thread in a more positive and constructive and respectful direction...
I believe you when you said you made a mistake, but we ALL, including yourself and myself, have racial biases. But moving on...
Why don't you start what you asked Espy, what does your idea of an open and honest discussion about race involve?
Or, I could go back to my previous post to you...
Vivec:And one more thing, not everyone has subconscious racist tendencies. People make jokes, but don't confuse a moment of humor as having a subconscious racist tendency. In order for one to have that, he or she would have to make a connection (an illogical connection) that race means more than shared phenotype and shared culture, a connection that not everyone makes.
Ghost (me): I don't agree with it. Reminder, I'm talking about racial bias, not racist tendencies.
Do you want to have that discussion?
Or, what I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Espy is trying to bring up, is that many institutions have recorded that minorities have higher crime rates. Espy believes it may have something to do with class, Merkurian disagrees and showed reports that blacks are treated more severely than whites and more likely to be racially-profiled (which I believe is true). But I don't think that completely dismisses Espy's point because (1) there are still more minorities in jail and the reason for it could be because of class (lack of good employment/education/opportunity) and (2) unfortunately, but realistically, there is still a disproportionate amount of minorities in lower classes compared to whites in this country, and that could be a reason why there are more blacks being charged than whites that is not necessarily racist (I think race probably still does play a role for some racists cops/judges, but not as much, and it's not the only reason for the disproportionality).
But there is also the problem that even black statesmen have brought up, that "gang culture" has become associated with black/Latino culture and that is a harmful thing. Obama himsellf has also said that black men need to do a better job at being more responsible, as both husbands and as fathers.
What do you want to discuss?
Ghost, I'm glad you believe me.
I still disagree about whether everyone has a bias or not, but that's not the main point, is it? As for whether people have a slight racial bias or not, making a statement that all blacks cry out racism at every opportunity and then saying that you want to have an "open and honest dialogue" about race is disingenuous, isn't it?
I'm not trying to paint anyone as a KKK Nazi. But I want to know what this "open and honest dialogue" about race is and whether or not it involves statements like black people cry out racism at every opportunity.
I don't want that when I point out a racist statement being made by someone, that somehow I am not letting them "express any real thoughts or emotions when it comes to race." So, with that said, here's what I want to know.
What does an "open and honest discussion" about race mean? What counts as a "real thoughts and emotions when it comes to race." Do offensive (and unfair, since race is only shared phenotype) comments count as part of this "discussion?"
You killed the discussion, Sean. I wanted an honest discussion on race such as: black people see racism everywhere, every bad thing that happens to African-Americans is their fault, Gates and Barack Obama naturally distrust police because they're black, etc. Hmm...did I miss the greatest hits of this 'open and honest' discussion? Now, there's nothing wrong with those points. I'm sure I've heard my father, grandmother, and the like say much worse. But they're not exactly fostering an 'open and honest' discussion on race, because they ignore...well...everything.
black people see racism everywhere, every bad thing that happens to African-Americans is their fault, Gates and Barack Obama naturally distrust police because they're black
This is just such a perfect representation of my views, there just isn't anything more to say.
Oh, good, because I strive for accuracy in reporting.
FIDo: You post; I mock
Indeed, it is.
Now that we have that settled, we can continue with my earlier question, which you still refuse to answer.
Some black people see racism everywhere. Some want to be victims to cover for their own inadequecies. And some are opportunists that see the cries od racism as a way to make a buck (Jeese Jackson, Al Sharpton, Quannel X I'm looking at you)
No, but how a person deals with their bad fortune in their fault. Born into poverty sucks. Dropping out of school to join a gang and sling rock isn't Whitey's fault. No one is keeping that brother down but his own bad choices. Same with some piece of white trash that has five kids from six men and uses meth.
Or maybe they are threatened by any authority figure. Or maybe they have a victim mindsent for no good reason. Or maybe they just want to use race as a covenient shield from criticsm. Who knows.
I'm sorry. Sarcasm's a lost artform online.
I'm not going to go into what is an open and honest discussion, but what it isn't is misrepresnting your opponent's views and not debating them in good faith. And until you can accurately portray the actual argument I was making, which I know you are capable of, I see no reason to continue this discussion.
As far as I'm aware the only arguments you've ever put up were that black people are drama queens and that every bad thing that happens to them is their own fault. So, I'm fine with you quitting, but no one here has misrepresented your views, you posted these things and now you're trying to back away from them now that they're being nailed to you. That's not misrepresentation; it's asking you to defend the views you've put forth. Even I put forth a half-hearted defense of positions I never fully agreed with. But that hasn't happened in this case. Instead it's just been obfuscation and misdirection in response to it.
Why not? You keep saying that I'm preventing us from having an open and honest discussion, so why can't you post what you think it is? Unless, of course, you don't actually have a clue what it is and are just using this term to try and get me to shut up. How very honest of you.
I am not misrepresenting your views. You made a clear statement that was racially charged, and when Smuggler agreed with you, you did not even say you were not serious. Now when I call you on it, I'm misrepresenting your views? The hell? This is ridiculous. You're the one not debating on good faith. You made a racist comment and you're not willing to own up to what you did. The evidence is here for everyone to see. Everyone. Your hand has been caught in the cookie jar. Just fess up and answer my question about the open and honest discussion so we can move on.
You didn't make it clear whether you agreed or not, but you posted a bit about someone saying black irresponsibility is more responsible for racial problems than is actual racism.
In the ensuing back and forth, you made a subtly racist comment or two (likely without even realizing it), and when this was brought to your attention rather than addressing the statements you ranted about how Americans are cowards about racism because people everyone's afraid of the label 'racist', apparently missing the irony that your rant was in fact a dodge against having your words called 'racist'.
I think what he was reacting to was more how an accusation of "racism" has become the Godwin's Law of the new millennium, no matter how accurate or inaccurate such a claim is.
I mean, absent of any direct statements or evidence, how are claims of racism substantiated? But for the most part, once someone is accused of being a racist, there really is no counter-claim that doesn't come off as being hollow, and the accusation itself has the side effect of making everyone defensive.
Even in one of the first posts in this thread, you posted a statement that said something like "almost all cops I know are racist.." It's an idea that is just as stereotypical as the concept you seem to be rallying against, and as you posted above- even if you don't realize it.
Because like the nuclear-warhead-esque accusation of racism within a debate, you didn't provide any insight with your statement. In what way? Do they go to KKK meetings on duty? Do all of the police cars have images of nooses painted on them? While you didn't come out and say it directly, I don't think the idea that "because they arrest black people" is enough to conclude that they're all racist.
Not even limiting ourselves to one profession like the police, as more and more time passes from the civil rights paradigm, the less of a concern racial division has within the general population. If you, yourself became a judge, or prosecutor, or police officer, or firefighter, do you think you would suddenly find yourself with uncontrollable feelings of racism? Since that's the case, where are all these racists coming from? What goal do you think is being served?
Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes.
(I love that song.)
As far as the cops comment, what I mean by "they're racist" is that they make free use of the N-word, are terribly amused by jokes comparing blacks to primates, and are generally of the opinion that having blacks around (whether as residents in one's neighborhood, co-workers, or fellow movie theater patrons) makes things worse. Trust me, they're racists.
And going back to Espy, I think what needs to be made clear is that there's a big difference between calling someone 'a racist' (as with my cop acquaintances) and noting racism within a given statement (as with Espy).
To call someone a racist is to accuse them of being someone who consciously makes racial judgments and assumptions.
What I did was point out to Espy that he was making statements that relied on inherently racist reasoning, because it honestly wasn't clear whether or not he realized that they did.
If you don't think I knew my first throw away comment was "racist" in that it generalized an entire race based on the actions of a few, while commenting on the very act of complaining of racism, I don't know what to tell you.
The other day when I was in Seattle I saw a booth for the ACLU. Besides going off on the hypocrisy of the ACLU's handling of the SLC mainstreet plaza, the hot british girl gave me a pamphlet that I thought rebutted very well what farraday thinks you should do when stopped by the police. And don't tell me the ACLU is just trying to conform to the man.
Know Your Rights: What to Do If You're Stopped by the Police
Really? What did I say you feel that rebuts? Or is this where you go back to thinking I said something else? Feel free to cite examples.
The article clearly states that you don't argue with the police and you hand over your DL when asked. You do what they tell you to do and if you have any issues you don't complain about them to the cop. The last thing you should do is argue with the police over what you are or are not required to do. You may inform them you don't consent to a search, but when they decide to go ahead and do it anyways, that isn't the time to tell them they are violating your rights.
The whole attitude you have is very different from what the brochure states.
Oh hey any other lies you want to tell? I don't say don't hand over your license, I say ask what you're legally required to do. clearly you're leagally required to hand over your license and so you should do so.
Lets go to a later post where I said "Can I see your I'd is pretty much always a reasonable request ". Yuo also managed to completely ignore the fact the ACLU tells you not to mindlessly comply with the officers every request, as demonstrated by their advice on searches, which is pretty much do not consent. It also states if they search anyways to make it clear you do not consent, which could probably be reasonably considered arguing with the police if you're suggesting what I said counts as arguing with the police.
So, for those playing along, asking the police officer to clarify=arguing with the police.
No, go on, keep looking.
See the difference you appear incapable of understanding is being aggressively dismissive of you and your authoritarian knee bending is not the same as "Arguing with the police" or being confrontational with a man with a badge and a gun. I'm not going to start yelling at cops arresting someone across the street or call an officer stopping me a mindless pig nazi because doing so is more likely to get me arrested, even if it's legal. I do not want to be arrested, however I'm not going to obey in questionable situations out of mindless fear of a gun or unthinking obedience to a badge of authority.
Just a little hint, a little tact and respect will get you a long way in life.
I'll consider that I'm trying to get "get white people to take seriously (my) concerns about abuse of power and discrimination by police".
I'm not always tactful, but I do try and think about what I'm saying before I say it. Would that others could say the same.