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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Gates Arrest: what does it say about race?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Ewan, Jul 23, 2009.

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  1. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Terrible legal advice, free.
    I'm pretty sure you won't have anyone banging down your door with that advertisement.

    Your argument is based on going to trial when that isn't a major concern since rarely does anything actually go to trial. The issue isn't trial it's arrest, and mindlessly cooperating tot he extent of giving away your rights does not keep you from being arrested.

    They are allowed to lie, they can trap you, they know more than you do about the specifics and they now exactly what they need to arrest you, and those are the good ones.

    Law & Order? Not really, but it's a hell of a lot better than you treating dealing with the cops like it's Mayberry.

    Sorry but Andy Griffith isn't going to come save you with folksy wisdom if you have a run in with the police.
     
  2. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Wow. With all that, it's a mystery why anyone would even leave their house in the first place.

    You know, this is also why I suggest that everyone look into doing a ride along with their town's police department, if they offer such a program, even if it's only for a couple of hours. Most do, some don't, some limit them to college majors or interns..

    You'll meet cops who have families, or who read poetry, or who like mystery movies, or who are members of the Twilight book club, or who even like Star Wars. In short, they're all just regular people. Of course, this also means that there are bad ones, and ones who make mistakes-no different than lawyers, doctors, teachers, or the guy who sells mobile phones from a kiosk at the mall.

    Of course, the cell phone guy doesn't have an ultra-secret Nazi switch that gets activated once he completes his oath, but he does get free roll over minutes, so I'd say it's about even.
     
  3. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Cops are normal people too!

    Sometimes I think of cops working long hours to go back to their apartment and sculpt and it doesn't even begin to make me forget that when you deal with the police they are going to be suspicious, they can arrest you, and regardless of how right or innocent you think you are you have broken the law at some point and relying on their good will to protect you from yourself is stupid.
     
  4. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Again, though, I guess the simple answer here is to minimize those actions that require other people to protect you from yourself.

    I'm picturing the 17 year old HS juniors who sit in the middle of the local park drinking beer at midnight getting all bent out of shape when the police come by asking what 17 year old kids are doing drinking beer in the park at midnight...because that's all the police do is harass kids for no good reason.

    Bonus points to those same kids if they're found driving away from the park, because after all, they're "just a little drunk and only have to drive across town."

    More bonus points to those kids who, upon seeing car lights, grab all of the beer they can while taking off on a full sprint, leaving a trail of dumped out cans into the night, in which they spend crouched down in the wet grass for the next 45 minutes.

    Even more points to those kids who actually show good taste and don't default to the typical frat-house Keystone Light because that's what is cheapest.

    That's never really going to go away because cities pay police officers to check on kids who are drinking beer in the park at midnight, and to specifically make sure that they don't kill themselves or others by driving across town while drunk. It's not a big deal unless it becomes a big deal.

    Again, the simplest solution is probably the best. Honesty. But more importantly, if those kids don't want to get caught in the park, common sense goes a long way. Just hang out in a friend's basement. Call a cab ride home, or have a designated driver instead of driving. Call their parents and say that they made a mistake, but they want to get home safely.

    The most important lesson of all though, is if your door is broken and you have to kick it in just to go home, don't act like you've just been discovered inside of the Manson Family murder house if anyone comes by to see if everything is ok, and you'll be fine.
     
  5. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Someone's painting you as a loon, but it ain't Mr 44.

    Yes, you should "obey a shiney badge without question or rant crazily." These are your only options. If you have a doubt, get the badge number and deal with it through the proper channels. Otherwise an innocent cop gets called stupid by a foriegn born US President and then we have to debate it on the message boards at TFN. :D
     
  6. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Weeelll... We don't have to. Because there's not much to debate, really, here. It's just sensation, and I doubt anyone here knows all the facts necessary to make a proper assessment.

    Because what you get is that suddenly there's a mention of your president's middle name, for no reason at all. What you get is a faulty mention of his place of birth. What you get is ugly intolerances rising to the surface, without it necessarily having anything to do with the topic.
     
  7. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    So? I get in my shots. Haven't I put up with the same thing for the last eight years? And hasn't Obama, thus far, been unanable to show a birth certificate? I have one. I'm gonna assume you have one. Everyone born in Hawaii has one...

    It's fun. It's my turn. Enjoy it! :)
     
  8. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I'm happy for you that you're getting the opportunity, even though it's wildly off-topic. But the difference is that the mud flung at your previous president was flung with good reason, like starting an illegal war or throwing the world into economic disaster. Not just a flub-up at a press conference.

    I'm almost sorry for you that this is all you have to work with. Almost. I'm more happy for the world that this is all we have to deal with.
     
  9. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Except, that's really pulling an Obi-Wan. What you say there is only true from a certain point of view.

    The fact is that the people who flung those sort of comments at Bush didn't do it "with good reason", they did it with what they thought was good reason. Similarly, those who attack Obama right now think that they are doing so "with good reason" (for example, runaway deficit spending far greater than anything Bush ever did, health care proposals that would only increase that spending, etc). For each side, from their point of view, they are doing so "with good reason".

    You tend to agree with the complaints about Bush, and so you feel that those were done "with good reason". Similarly, you tend to agree with Obama more, and so you would be less inclined to believe that those complaints are "with good reason". A lot of that really comes down to your point of view.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  10. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    At the risk of going further off-topic, I think he was commenting on the birther claims. Which are crap and usually motivated by their own racial bias.
     
  11. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Yep. And I'm going to hope that the big grin emoticon means that J-Rod isn't really taking the "birther" claims seriously.

    Will Menaker satires Lou Dobbs

    And Jon Stewart--this is **** funny and it includes the facts on the subject
     
  12. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    At the risk of taking this topic further off-topic, altho I think that the basic topic of this thread is racism, the demands of the "birther" crowd are a little ridiculous. First it was claimed that Obama was Muslim. Now it's that he's not a natural-born American citizen, even tho he has provided a copy of his birth certificate showing he was born in Hawaii.

    And what motivates these attacks on a sitting US president? Racism.

    It is really sad for the Republican party when this is all they can come up with to try to win the election by default that they lost last November with such silly, trumped-up garbage.

    If Gates had acted reasonably, the cops would not have arrested him. If a cop asks for your ID, you give it to him, especially when you are standing in your own home.

    To do anything else will raise the cop's suspicion and escalate the incident.
     
  13. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Actually, there is at least some truth to that claim.

    You see, according to several sources I have seen, a person is considered to be a Muslim if their father is a Muslim. OBama's father was born and raised a Muslim (although he later abandoned the Islamic faith), and so under several forms of Islamic law, Obama would be considered a Muslim.

    Judaism has a similar law, except that it follows the mother instead of the father. If your mother is a Jew, then by Jewish law, you are also a Jew. Strictly speaking, you could have a Muslim man marry a Jewish woman, and their child would be recognized as both a Muslim and a Jew. (If they then were baptized as a Christian, they could then cover all of the major Abrahamic religions at once.)

    Kimbalk Kinnison
     
  14. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    KK,

    Um, the United States, the last time I checked, was not subject to Muslim law. Obama is a Christian, not a Muslim. The attempts to link him to Islam were prompted by someone trying to play upon the irrational fears of some Americans rather than trying to debate the real issues that were involved in the campaigns of both candidates.

    I have heard that Obama's mother and father were not married (and if that is incorrect, I retract it), so under my understanding of Muslim law, he (Obama) would be an outcast. Same with Jewish law, at least the orthodox, conservative, Jewish law.
     
  15. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Just when you thought it was over...World Net Daily brings up the birther argument against Obama AGAIN...Using a brand new tactic...Naturalized citizens applying for passports...Yup, that'll get him


    Not my headline, I just liked it. Anyway, they seem to demand a lot of proof that Obama's a citizen:

    Really? All of that? They're either crazy or running a successful trolling campaign. I wonder which it is.

     
  16. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Last I checked, the US didn't have any legal criteria for deciding who belongs to what religion. I was simply pointing out that under Islamic law, Obama could be considered a Muslim, although he would also be considered an apostate. Therefore, it is not completely inaccurate to claim that he is a Muslim.

    As for his parents, according to Time Magazine, they were married Feb 2, 1961 (although in marrying Ann Dunham, Barak Obama, Sr. did commit the crime of bigamy, because he was previously married in Kenya).

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  17. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    It's funny, but I have two different versions of my birth certificate. One is the long form, that shows the hospital I was born in and the name of the doctor who delivered me, my parents' oocupations, number of children previously born to my mother and lots of other "statistical" information that has no bearing on where I was born or the date I was born on. The other is quite similar to the short form. I haven't tried to get a passport yet, but if you have the short form, it is most likely you will be able to obtain the long form, too.

    I still say there's just too much fuss about this. I live in California, and my governor has (or did have, anyway) a lot of support to run for president. However, that would take an act of Congress, as he was most definitely born in Austria.

     
  18. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Hardly. But then again, conspiracy theories never were much concerned with facts.
     
  19. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    FIDo: If I didn't know any better, I'd think that was an Onion article. That's how ridiculous those claims are. But oh well, it's World Nut Daily. That's to be expected. They hired Jerome "Muslims worship Satan" Corsi, who managed to publish a book based on Internet rumors about Obama which had all been debunked by Snopes.

    My reaction to the whole "Obama is a Muslim!" outcry was, Even if he is, so the **** what? A bigger issue here was not his Muslim heritage or lack thereof, it's the fact that the rumor-mongers were (are? since they're still out there) being highly ethnocentristic.
     
  20. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Everyone knows why conservatives tried to pin to Obama that he was a Muslim, because of the average conservative's fear of Muslims. It was guided by an irrational fear than anything relating to reality. Again, a stupid charge and why people still think that racism is prevalent still. It's not, but with cases like Gates' arrest (even if it was perfectly legitimate, which it wasn't) and the birthers with their crypto-racist claims, you get the impression that we're still a racist society.

    I must say that some of the replies here have also caused me some concern as to people's views on race as well.
     
  21. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    KK... Bush is a war criminal. His illegal actions resulted in a million deaths. I think he deserved mud flung at him a bit more than Obama does for flubbing up at a press conference.
     
  22. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    I wasn't aware basic common sense counted as legal advice. Man this lawyering stuff sounds easy, I think it is about time I become one.
     
  23. DarthPoojaNaberrie

    DarthPoojaNaberrie Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Have they talked about Gates on the Daily Show at all? I'm curious what their take on it is.
     
  24. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Thank you for giving me the benifit of the doubt. I tend to think the way Ann Coulter does about the situation: If he wasn't eligible to hold office he would never ever have gotten passed Hilary in the Primaries. She would not have let that go just to save her party's face.

    Also, there waws no travel restrictions to Pakistan in 1981, an American could get a passport then.

    However, the "evidence" of Bush stealing the election or of being a war criminal is no more compelling than that of Obama not being eligable for office.

    So yeah, I'll take my digs. But the Libs have the advantage of being able to play the race card against me, 'cause then they can swerve any real issues I'd like to dig up.

    So it doesn't matter. Whether my concerns are real or imagined, to them I'm only a biggot...after all there can't possibly be any other reason to dislike Obama.
     
  25. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    The birthers are crazy right wingers and have no factual basis in reality, as well as those that like to shout he is a Muslim.

    However, doing so makes them no more racists than those who portrayed Bush as a caricature of a mad cowboy.

    I do have a problem with everyone here who is saying that the only reason people would make up or promote these stupid ideas is because they are racists. Nobody cried about racism when people were making up crazy and stupid stories about the last 43 Presidents, but now everyone who does so is a racist? Sure there are racists in the mix, but Obama's race is hardly the only reason for people to say stupid and crazy things. And the worst racists I see are those who suggest that race is the only reason for people to say such things.
     
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