Lit The Great River / Legends Haven MkII (Was: Should there be new stories in the Legends continuity?)

Aftermath author Chuck Wendig has written about this topic:
http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2016/04/20/an-open-letter-to-the-bring-back-legends-star-wars-fans/

I have no opinion myself, but I'm curious what the folks in here think of his open letter.

 

We'll have to see how many of them will be willing to pay for a second billboard. That will tell us if this will fizzle out or will have a chance of getting Lucasfilm to listen to it.

 

To me it is just him airing his same grievances again and again and again and again.

Which is what the internet is for I guess. I'm sure I sound like a broken record as well.

 

He actually sounds a lot more reasonable than pretty much everything you have seen online from these legends groups. And he also actually gives good points. Something the legends groups tend not to do.

 

He makes a lot of good points, for example he agrees with TheRedBlade about how they should have donated the money to charity and he is right about how the Legends movement needs to put its house in order. He is also correct that we are not likely to get new Legends stories and gives several valid points as to why.

 

The whole "they should have given the money to charity!" charge is so ridiculous.

Who's saying this to Steve Sansweet who probably spent far more than a hundred times this much money on his collection?

Who's saying this to the fans who spend money on making outfits to join the 501st?

Who's saying this to fans who saw TFA twenty times in a row?

Who's saying this to fans who bought a hundred copies of Marvel Star Wars #1 so they could make sure to get each version of the blank cover variants?

Who's saying this to fans who foolishly spent money buying a Chuck Wendig book?

 

I know that these legends groups are passionate Star Wars fans but in general the best argument that the folks that put this billboard up came up with for why Legends should return is that the new canon sucks and Disney is stupid for rebooting the thing they like.

So again if they can continue to do stuff like this for many years to come Lucasfilm might throw them a bone. But I am not sure how many of them would be willing to spend money a second, or third, or fourth time around.

 

Who's saying this to fans who flood Star Wars Books facebook page with nasty comments and demands for new Legends material every time they post something new?

Who's saying this to the people who forced Brian to take a leave of absence from Tosche Station due to the abuse?

Who's saying this to people who are using Tu quoque?

 

I think Windig's letter was a reasonable balance between being respectful and pointing out flaws in reasoning. Very good point about knowing when say that the cause is lost and it's time to move on. (Too bad he wasn't this diplomatic during the Aftermath controversy.)

I'd be really curious to know what the actual movement members think of it, considering the very different views they have. I've seen several defenses for the social media "raids" they conduct, arguing that they're a legit way to get the point across, while I, like Windig, have never understood how even the politest of these is any different than spamming.

 

Telling people how to spend their money doesn't equal a "good point" imo. People would have done more good donating their money to Force For Change than buying Aftermath as well.

He also mentions "branding confusion" seemingly unaware that Disney LFL is republishing hundreds of Legends comics & novels and putting them on store shelves right next to the new canon stuff.

His tone is softer, but it is nothing he has not said before, and nothing he will not say again.

And yes the Star Wars fandom needs to put its house in order, but I don't really think it will ever be able to do so. This includes the worst of the BBL people, the people that loved TFA but hated that a black man was cast in a leading role and those who think Rogue One looks so cool but are angry that a woman was cast in the lead role. And of course those upset about gays in Star Wars should go and rethink their lives as well..

http://junkee.com/sad-internet-boys-mad-rogue-one-female-lead/75928

 

I wouldn't say that everything is was the best of arguments. People's money is their own to spend, even if I can't understand the desire for the billboard. I think the Legends reprinting is less confusing that you make it sound; it's given its own sub-series, the paperback canon books are a different size, there are differences. I don't the confusion being total, but I think there could be some among first-timers. But I could see better arguments being made that canon books are a better investment, esp. given that a lot readers (new and old) are going to want to read stories about the new characters.

Agreed that, since there's no "official" way to excommunicate the rabid "Legends" fans, the movement probably won't be able to "clean house" beyond issuing statements that they don't support the hostilities (and some have).

Its because of a lot of these factors that I think the Continue Legends movement has far less clout than they think and is going to die off without achieving anything. But, as long as they're not harassing anyone, I think it's perfectly okay for them to keep on. I mean, if if a new Legends book got the rubber stamp, I'd be as excited as anyone else.

 

That is exactly what I am saying, it isn't confusing at all for people to be staring at new canon books and Legends books in stores at the same time.

Chuck Wendig is the one saying it is confusing.

Sure it might all amount to nothing - well nothing but a Revan Black Series action figure from the hasbro fan poll - but I've been hearing about how this is going to die off for a year and a half now, if not a little longer.

First people were saying it would just last a few months - then I heard that it wouldn't last a year - but here we are again. It isn't really shaking the earth, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

I might understand why new material could be thought to be confusing, given all most of the new stuff has been announced as canon and/or ties into the new movies. So, I could see causal readers looking for a book for the first time wondering why this new book seems to be set in a different reality. But, between common sense and Google, I think that anyone who wants to figure things out could (if readers need to work so hard; I'd advocate having a disclaimer in front of Legends books explaining that they're not canonical, something that reprints have not done yet, sad to say).

So, I kind of agree with both Windig and you, but I will concede that the better question is if new Legends is a wise use of publishing resources.

 

Who's saying what?

I am specifically responding to the trope that fans who spend their money a certain way are automatically selfish for not using that money to go to charity (because obviously there's no way any of them might also have done so... spending money on two different things, impossible!), while fans who spend their money any other way to show their appreciation of the franchise are lauded as being the real fans.

I mean, Wendig is castigating fans for not donating to charity with their money while also promoting a book that costs $28.99. What percentage of his proceeds are going to Force for Change? The Force Awakens made over 2 billion dollars, why is Lucasfilm only matching up to 1 million dollars for Force for Change? But five thousand bucks on a signboard... selfish!

 

There is a difference though. The group that put up the billboard is engaging in a propaganda campaign and make no mistake that is what it is: using advertising and social media to affect to force Disney / Lucasfilm to produce more Legends material. Pointing out that said propaganda campaign could have made a more positive media impact with its money by donating it to a charity and that it would have been a more effective, subtle tactic to getting what they want and getting people who can give them what they want to take notice of them and their movement is a valid criticism. Which is what Wendig did, "One could argue that you might’ve made the same impression or better if you organized the money to go to charity". A guy who wants to buy Aftermath to read a Star Wars story is not engaging in a public relations campaign to change the mind of some corporate executives nor is a guy going to the Celebration dressed as a stormtrooper. It is not a valid comparison, but rather the use of Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy, a logical fallacy) to toss out a red herring and hope that nobody notices the end-goals of the book buyer and billboard buyer are rather different.

And how much of that republishing material is getting an advertising campaign comparable with Bloodline or Aftermath Life Debt? How many people are going to see posters at Book-A-Million or Barnes & Noble advertising Legends books? How many people are going to see advertising pop-ups for Legends material on websites they are browsing? None. These books have been out for quite some time, they have a dedicated fanbase and the initial costs of publishing and marketing them have been recouped quite some time ago. Not so with new Legends material and a publisher like Del Ray will want to recoup that start-up cost and turn a profit, which means an active advertising campaign. Which means casual fans going into the store, seeing the posters for a new Star Wars book and excited to see what happens next to Rey, Finn, Poe or Kylo Ren; only to picks it up and to get rather confused. That is what branding confusion is: people getting confused about a new actively marketed product, not one that has been on the shelves for years.

And this goes back to the point of giving the money to charity. The Bring Back Legends crowd is pretty negatively received by many people for a variety of reasons and its name brand would benefited from some positive press. But saying "Yeah we have some bad apples but these other guys are just as bad" is not an argument (in fact, it is appeal to hypocrisy again), it is an excuse to not curb the excesses of said bad apples. Anybody who articulates ideas like what you have just listed in a post on this board will be met with instant mod action; that is what people do when they see something they thing is a problem or contradicts their ethics. Bring Back Legends could reign in some of their more excessive members, they might not succeed but people would notice the effort.

I'll tell you what I told Robimus, the group that put up the billboard is engaging in a propaganda campaign and make no mistake that is what it is. They are using advertising and social media to affect change, in this case to force Disney / Lucasfilm to produce more Legends material. Wendig made a valid criticism of their choice of tactics in pursuing this public relations campaign: "One could argue that you might’ve made the same impression or better if you organized the money to go to charity". Saying things like "But five thousand bucks on a signboard... selfish!" shows you don't understand what he is critical of and why; or you are trying to muddy the waters.

 

Look at the bolded section of Dr. Steve Brule's post. Chuck Wendig is saying exactly that to the people you mentioned in your post Karl0413. I already had extreme distaste for Aftermath based solely on the writing style of the sample I downloaded on my Kindle, but when I hear Chuck tell people how to spend their money, it just reinforces my decision to not ever buy one of his novels.

 

See my response to Dr. Brule and Rombus. The group that put up the billboard is engaging in a propaganda campaign and make no mistake that is what it is. They are using advertising and social media to affect change, in this case to force Disney / Lucasfilm to produce more Legends material. Wendig made a valid criticism of their choice of tactics in pursuing this public relations campaign: "One could argue that you might’ve made the same impression or better if you organized the money to go to charity". Pointing out that said propaganda campaign could have made a more positive media impact with its money by donating it to a charity and that it would have been more effective, subtle tactic to getting what they want and getting people who can give them what they want to take notice of them and their movement is a valid criticism. A guy who wants to buy Aftermath to read a Star Wars story is not engaging in a public relations campaign to change the mind of some corporate executives nor is a guy going to the Celebration dressed as a stormtrooper.

 

That is a good point. I have not really kept up on the "Bring Back Legends" drama, and I was only judging things from the content of Chuck's letter. But while I do agree that such a gesture by these BBL people is futile, it is still their money to spend and it is not Chuck, or anybody's place to tell these people how to use their own money.

 

And here's where the wheels kind of fall off.

There's quite a bit more to producing more Legends content than just throwing a few thousand dollars at an author's advance and getting a new book. DR would need to either kill an upcoming book (not happening), or hire another editor or two to produce another book during the calendar year. They'd also need to get Lucasfilm to sign off on another book slot which means there would have to be some contract renegotiation to slot another book every year and make sure everyone is compensated for that work. Then you'd have to come up with a new marketing strategy on both the LFL and DR/Random House side, which may necessitate hiring a person or two in that sphere. Then you actually have to go find an author. Then outlines are written, and that stuff has to be approved by someone at Lucasfilm (and this was true prior to the Story Group), and given how busy the folks at Lucasfilm are with new films/television/comics/books, THEY might also have to hire someone to go over all of this.

And this doesn't even get into the logistical stuff of DR finding printer time to add another book to their/Random House's total catalog.

That's probably missing about 300 steps/individuals along the way, but the takeaway is adding another book to schedules is really not an easy process. The financial costs might actually be less of a restriction than the human resource cost.

 

I agree with you on the money to charity part. That was a bit silly--any money invested in anything could've been donated to charity, so it's kind of a non-argument on his part.

But I think he has reasonable points in most other parts of his letter, though.

 

Lol.

Propaganda! Oh no!

 

Really? Do you have another term for an active media campaign to convince people to change their mind?

 

The bad apples are a simple reality. Stuff that gets deleted here, because the site is well established and has 50-100 staff, still got posted here. TFN creates a decent enough atmosphere, I agree, but it isn't Twitter. It is like comparing apples to rocks for nutritional value.

Stuff that can/should be moderated in the BBL groups is as far as I have seen. And if I can't see something someone screen captures then that means it was deleted, which is simply evidence of exactly what you are asking for. What can't be controlled is individuals on twitter, individuals sending emails, individuals posting on public Facebook pages with their personal accounts, so on, so forth. Even if I was a staff member in a BBL group(which I am not nor would I wish to be) I wouldn't be able to control that anymore than you can control people posting about their anger that the lead actress in Rogue One is a girl.

By asking BBL to "reign in some of their more excessive members" what you are saying is that they would somehow have to find a way to control their personal social media accounts, which to me is an unrealistic approach to the situation. There will always be someone who can send a tweet or compose an email that will just start this whole conversation over again.

I think if people want BBL to go away, be it Chuck Wendig or Tosche Station or whoever, they should simply stop giving them the attention they are. as it only seems to fuel the fire.

Yet every major franchise except Star Wars seems to be able to do exactly this. Clearly Disney LFL made a choice that they want to focus their efforts on the new canon - it is a choice.

The ideas that they can't find the resources to do this, or that it would be cost prohibitive for them to do so, when everyone else does it, sounds far fetched to me.

 

Ah, but they can easily kick people who engage in this behavior out of their Facebook groups and issue a formal apology to Brian, Chuck or anybody else who has suffered abuse at the hands of the movement. Do you think the people who put up the billboard would be willing to do that?

No but you can put a stop to it in your group and make sure people know the group as a whole does not approve of that kind of behavior.

So you are saying that the group should neither be criticized publicly or moderated?

 

I can stand this Disney propaganda. Using active media campaigns to try to shape people's opinions about Star Wars products... it's totalitarian! It's sinister!

Why couldn't they simply donate their propaganda budget to Force for Change? That would obviously create just as much of an impact. But whatever, I guess propaganda is more important than the all-important donations to charity, the proven #1 to publicize something.

This is what gets me - what about this whole thing warranted an "open letter" from Wendig, especially one aimed at showing how selfish those fans are by not spending their money on donations instead? What was so pressing that he had to do that in the first place? What was the goal of that except to pretty clearly stoke fires again in a way that would position him as the victim who's getting ganged up on by those mean selfish propagandists?