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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Great River / Legends Haven MkII (Was: Should there be new stories in the Legends continuity?)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Hamburger_Time, Nov 30, 2015.

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  1. Rew

    Rew Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2008
    Wendig probably could've helped his case considerably by leaving out that parenthetical remark about donating money to charity, I see. :p
     
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  2. mcgo

    mcgo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Disagree with that entirely. A lot of people - less invested than I am -- have said they didn't like how the Big Three wre treated and would rather not have seen them back. The force could have awakened in descendants 100 years later, at which point the similarity to ANH seems less like a rip-off and more a believable history repeating itself story.
     
  3. Lane_Winree

    Lane_Winree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2006

    Hi! I'm Brian, the one who was harassed off his own fansite/podcast last week. I've not addressed BBL on the blog or podcast since September, when I cataloged their bad behavior at Dragon Con. Since then, I've gotten a constant stream of escalating harassment that culminated last week in death threats, which is why I stepped away in order to deal with the anxiety and depression caused by said harassment. They've gone full Gamergate, and it doesn't matter whether or not I (or anyone else) responds or not. But please, feel free to say I brought this upon myself.
     
  4. mcgo

    mcgo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2013
    I'm not involved with BBL, but it's a little hard to take seriously the argument that they should give the money to charity...can't really engage in a propaganda campaign without propaganda that people will be forced to confront...like a billboard.
     
  5. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    What evidence do you have that this behavior is tolerated in these groups? You keep saying this but the sense I get is that you are not actually a part of any of these groups.

    I'm an individual, not a group. I can offer my opinions on poor behavior, and have. I can't put a stop to something happening there anymore than I can put a stop to something happening here. Not that I see much happening anyway. Best I can do is hit the "report" button and I've done that a couple times. The offending comments then went away.

    Honestly, I see very little over the top behavior in the couple of groups I am in. I don't know that I have ever seen a death threat or a threat of bodily harm towards anyone, though someone did call Chuck Wendig an "over sensitive hippy" today which likely would not be allowed here. The odd time something does flare up it gets moderated. Obviously, I can't speak for groups I'm not a part of and again can't be considered responsible for people making tweets or sending messages on personal accounts, even if I think they are the lowest of the low and should have their internet privileges revoked for the things they are saying. Heck, some time in jail would be good for them if they are issuing death threats and the like.


    You take whatever recourse you deem is necessary to address what has happened to you. I honestly hope people issuing death threats and giving you serious harassment get charged by police and are dealt with accordingly.

    I still would have approached this whole situation differently than you have, far less publically. I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I find the dealing with serious drama publically on the internet doesn't work at all. That has just been my experience, you do what works for you.

    I hope you can get past this terrible part of your life and get back on track as I enjoy your podcast even if we are on differing sides of the fence at times.
     
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  6. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    "Just ignore it"

    *wakes up to tweets, emails, and various other items telling me I'm a traitor, Disney shill, and ugly c-word for betraying the EU*

    Sure, no problem.
     
  7. Lane_Winree

    Lane_Winree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2006

    But not ALL BBLers, so clearly it's okay.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Karl0413

    Karl0413 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Would you prefer the term "public relations" instead? It means the same thing, just sounds nicer. :p


    Either way, it is irrelevant to the point I made. They have an organized campaign to change people's minds about an issue they care about. Wendig made a valid criticism that they of their choice of tactics in getting noticed. You can keep making sarcastic remarks till the cows come home but it won't change that fact.

    Hmm, first you say "Lucasfilm only matching up to 1 million dollars for Force for Change" and then you turn around say this. Seems like charitable donations are already in the budget. But then again the fact you can make a statement like "I guess propaganda is more important than the all-important donations to charity, the proven #1 to publicize something" two minutes after talking about the Force for Change campaign.o_O

    Hmm, how about them publicly dragging his name and work through the mud every way they could for the better part of the last year? Think that might have something to do with it? Hmm.......[face_thinking]
     
  9. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    See I kinda feel like comparing Star Wars fans to armed gunman robbing people is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It seems to me like we had something very much like this back in the days when Traviss was writing, from what I read a few years after the event. Did Traviss "cross the line" in her comments about sections of the fandom? Did she receive death threats? Is Wendig going to go down in Star Wars history as "the next Traviss" for better or worse?

    Seems a lot quicker though - Wendig's only written one book so far.
     
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  11. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Most of Karen's comments were quite public and still might be up on her website.

    I don't know if Karen received death threats, but I did see internet hyjynx about people tracking her down and camping out outside her house to make her fix things - and there was that cartoon on another website showing her undertaking sexual acts in her bedroom for a lineup of Mandalorian men, that type of stuff.

    I think Karen was already gone from posting on this site by the time I came onboard, but admittedly I didn't get into reading her novels immediately and may not have been following the discussions at first.
     
  12. loststars

    loststars Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2016

    Lets not forget either that another blog, The Furious Fanboys, posted a couple articles on how the BBL movement has been just threatening fans since Dragon Con last year and documented how they thought the fan who saw TFA early before he died was not a real person and Disney made them up. He got so many threats from that group that he took down both stories and is considering doing what Brian did to make it stop.

    So if the shoe fits, there you go.
     
  13. Taalcon

    Taalcon Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 1998
    All of these factors are silent, and for a back-catalogue. This is important.

    1. Yes, when they republish them, they republish them with the Banner to make them more distinct.
    2. Yes, when they republish them, they republish them in the old smaller size paperback, which is different than the larger size paperbacks used for the new Story Group novels.
    2. BUT - When they republish them, they do not advertise them. They treat them the same as old back-stock, and do not publicize a new edition.

    Each of those three result in silently creating a strong visual difference in the new material with the old material. This can't be understated when taking this stuff into consideration.

    If a Brand New book is commissioned and published, apart from fulling up a publishing slot that they'd rather give to developing the ongoing mutimedia saga, this would necessitate publicity.



    LFL is going to have enough difficulty explaining how Rogue One isn't a sequel to TFA, so expending extra effort to say, "So, here's a book which doesn't even relate to the story on TV, the movies, but is a sequel to a book series cancelled a few years ago. There's a primer at the beginning to explain everything that's different from the TFA story, why Han is alive, but Chewie isn't, the deal with Han and Leia and Luke's(!!) kids, and why Rey and Finn don't have anything to do with this."- and then to get back into gear with the next book, "Okay, now the new book DOES have to do with the movies and TV again, and relates to all the other SW books we make, except for that last one."

    And this is just one aspect of Marketing. It's a lot more complicated than many actually understand.
     
  14. Karl0413

    Karl0413 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2015
    You are right, I am not part of one these groups. Because if I was I would be coming down on you and Dr. Steve Brule a hell of a lot harder. I can see what happened at Aftermath's launch, I can see what happened at last year's DragonCon. I can see what happened at Tosche Station. I can read comments on Star Wars Books Facebook page. I don't want crap like that associated with me, in case you couldn't tell by the fact that I am Star Wars fan speaking out about it and demanding action be taken about it. The fact that your response when confronted with this behavior is statements like "well, you can't police the entire internet" or "calling attention to the actions of entitled bullies only adds fuel to the fire" or "you shouldn't compare the people who bullied and insulted you to thugs" speaks volumes.
     
  15. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The divisiveness is certainly part of the problem -- back when the reboot first happened, a lot of us were missing Legends and playfully wanting to wear Legends banners to cons even while excited for thee new stuff.

    But when people are trying to marginalized what happened -- and I've seen it -- then it's a problem. No, you can't be responsible for every person in your group. That's crazy. But the group could vocally say "this isn't us and we don't condone this" -- I don't think that's too much to ask?

    I know you don't condone harassment, Rob. I don't know what a private group things though. It would be a nice gesture of support if BBLers and others said "those harassers don't represent us."

    That wins a lot of good will. And that publicity makes people better inclined towards things like that billboard thing.

    But that hasn't happened, as far as I'm aware.
     
  16. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    See, whatever I say here is going to be wrong in the eyes of some but anyway, here goes.

    The Furious Fanboys article which I read today is filled with inaccurate information about the organization of the 1 star campaign on Amazon.com, mentioned the completely fictitious "spoiler Jihad" in which they called BBL'ers "Domestic Terrorists", "sad and pathetic" and called people in the BBL groups "cancers" while lobbying to shut down those groups on facebook because they viewed them as "hate groups". I don't get too ruffled by that type of stuff(maybe a little), but I can understand why others would.

    Heck no, that doesn't give anyone permission to go and do stupid things, but some pretty offensive things were said on both sides of the line in the sand. This eye for an eye, back and forth fighting is accomplishing very little.

    Isn't that what I've just done? I've said they don't represent me and I can't speak for any "us".

    I am as hesitant to refer to them as "us" as I would be to refer to myself as a part of "us" as it relates to TF.N. I suppose I am part of "us" it just seems weird, like I'm picking sides or something, to say it that way.



     
  17. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    I ain't touching this larger battle, but I will contribute this much: Lane's description of the challenge above is accurate.

    Over the years I've proposed a few projects -- some mine, some not -- that were thoroughly noncontroversial and that struck people as good ideas, but that were DOA because they would have necessitated creating new slots in already full plans, licensor/licensee contract renegotiations, reallocations of budgeted dollars for marketing/logistics support, etc.

    And before someone asks: same thing applies with electronic releases.

    I can't speak to other franchises, but yes, that's absolutely the way it works for Star Wars.

    (After review, to be clearer: I'm talking about the difficulties of adding something to an existing pub plan, which typically is mapped out 18 to 24 months ahead and pretty locked down a year or so out. It's obviously true that choices are made about what to emphasize etc. in creating those.)
     
  18. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    So what kind of timeframe was in play when you got hired to write the Transformers Classified Battle Mountain tie ins?

    Just curious because it seems like you have your toe dipped in a few different pools so to speak. Or in a few different sandboxes maybe :)
     
  19. Rew

    Rew Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2008

    Wait, that's a thing that really happened (i.e. the threats thing, not the person dying)? Damn that's really messed up. :(

    I really liked how that fan got to see the movie before he passed. I hate that that story got taken down because of the hate and threats of people claiming it wasn't real. I mean, what would possess people to do that? Like, really?
     
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  20. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Re: that Facebook site:

    They can post all the rules they want, but I've seen screenshots that pertain to me, personally, and they definitely do not follow those rules.

    I've also seen screenshots that confirm that yes, they did try to organize one-star reviews on Aftermath and TFA spoilers.

    It's very easy to present one face in private and another in public.
     
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  21. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003

    Hmm. Got hired for Transformers in March '11, first book came out in October. (Translation: WRITE FAST YOUNG MAN.) But that was Ryder Windham's gig -- he very kindly brought me on as his co-author. I was never privy to the overall plan there -- was just a gun for hire. The last one to arrive at the corral, at that. Vaguely recall those books were tied into the second movie in the series, which had come out a couple of years earlier.

    BTW, that series was meant to be a quartet, but they dropped the last book. Which is one way to free up a publishing slot. If you've ever wondered why a series that didn't sell much seemed to wrap everything up in a hurry, well, that's a possibility.
     
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  22. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Right, you don't speak for the group nor would I expect you to, Rob. And I wouldn't hold you responsible for group member views either.

    But what I mean is something equivalent to a press release -- something like "some members of our group have done things that this group doesn't condone and doesn't want to be associated with."

    So, for example. Karen Traviss. Users of this very board drove her off around ten years ago or so. The administration at the time (I was not a mod then) took action against those users and adopted an author bashing policy that it holds to this day. The administration also told Traviss and LFL that those users don't represent us.

    That incident still damaged us. Authors stopped coming as much as they used to. Regular users like me who didn't condone it still got tarred with the same feather -- TFN is *that* site that drives off authors. But we disowned that behavior and did our best. It didn't clear the air, but we still felt that we needed to do it.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  23. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016


    This and the previous post you provided was an interesting look at the other side of the publishing world, Mr. Fry.

    Out of curiosity, the Transformers books were talking about, are those stuff that's easy for franchise newbies to follow? I tend to be curious about author's work if I like other things they've done, and I've generally enjoyed your Star Wars projects.

    I really liked the Rey's Survival Guide you did (and some of the podcast interviews I heard you on); nice balance between "factual" info and interesting asides -- anything to do with Hellhound 2 and the happabores, for example -- to keep it from getting too dry. It really added to the enjoyment of the other tie-ins and the movie itself. I'd certainly be up for similar books in the furture, like a Rey's Force training journal (or journal stuff for other characters, for than matter) to go with Episodes 7 and 8.
     
  24. Lane_Winree

    Lane_Winree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2006

    For example, there's one pretty well documented closed Facebook group that is behind a large amount of targeted harassment and death threats. Other groups condemning -that specific group- would go a long ways to restoring some credibility.
     
  25. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2012
    See, this is a good example of what I pointed out in the Aftermath thread. Robimus says he doesn't condone harassment, and a moderator of the forum's reply is to say "right, but it would be nice if people like you said that you don't condone harassment."

    Someone compares EU supporters to murderers and thieves and when Robimus brings it up, it gets shrugged off.

    People like jamminjedi23 post solely to target people who voice a preference for the EU and I have never seen him get any sort of discipline here.

    I can honestly say that I have felt harassed numerous times on this board for my preference for the EU, both by individual users and by moderators implicitly endorsing it (and in some instances joining in) and that it has quite specifically led to me not feeling like I can take part in open EU discussions on this forum, and that when I have brought it up to various moderators here over the past two years, it has not led to anything being done.

    But I guess I don't own a website or publish books so it doesn't matter :)
     
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