Lit The Great River / Legends Haven MkII (Was: Should there be new stories in the Legends continuity?)

What about those of us who like both versions, but prefer the reboot? Where do we fit in?

 

I'm not trying to drop shade on the guy, because he was the EU's big brother defender when baby Masterskywalker was posting here regularly back in the day. But did Bib Fortuna move on to greener pastures? I haven't seen him post here in years.

 

Lots of either/or logic here.

While critical of the ST, I still love it. As I suspect most do. Also...is there anyone here not an EU fan? If so, probably few. It's like you are saying like how you do, or don't like it at all. "True Fan" logic.

It's also totally wrong to say the ST did not follow the OT formula. Please. Lucas very explicitly practically went out of his way to say it did.

Can you give me one example of anyone who has said SW must follow the OT formula, or it isn't SW.

Being around a long time, many really wanted different kinds of SW stories. And we got those pretty often. Coruscant Nights comes to mind. Or Death Troopers. The Clone Wars had a very different formula... again, intentionally.

I don't really care if you are more an EU fan than a Star Wars fan... although, that still makes you a SW fan. You can like or not like SW however you like.

People may disagree with your narrow perspectives, but no one is saying you can't enjoy SW in your own way.

Afterthought: after the crazy election season (and I followed closely from way back in the spring of 2015), it is nice to argue SW instead.

 

I'm saying that OT purists and the ST follow the OT formula that's the narrow minded attitude. The broader more experimental attitude in Dawn of the Jedi and NJO.

 

I'd call that SW, not narrow minded. And I pointed out several non-OT formula works...some included in the NEU. I can think of many more.

I like that stuff, too, fyi. I would also guess most here do.

But I disagree with both your examples that do not follow that formula. A different ere or new extra galactic protagonist is not the same as not following the formula.

There are much better examples of EU works that go in different structural directions.

 

So far there has been ONE movie in the new trilogy - yes that one was derivative in many ways of ANH (plenty of other stories have been too) but we don't know at all where they are going with Episodes 8 & 9. The next Star Wars movie is due out in a week and it's a literal war movie by most accounts, something different in tone and style to the 'main' movies. There's a whole bunch of the new canon EU, all of it going in different directions and trying new things.

Is the new canon as diverse as Legends was? Not yet. How could it be, so soon? But that's not to say it won't get there given the same time that Legends had.

 

One thing I just want to jump in and say: I've seen other posters say that part of why Disney put the Legends stories on ice, besides for the reason of new canon, was to be able to use story characters, planets, and ideas from Legends in new material. And that may be true. But I feel that it should be noted that I strongly doubt the philosophy of the culmination of the EU, imo -- NJO, especially from Traitor to Unifying Force (some ideas even echoed in KOTOR II) -- will ever make a full-fledged appearance in DisneyEU. Even if the characters, places, even narrative appears, I don't believe the ideas and messages will come with. And that is the true loss of the end of Legends. Though the loss began even before Disney did the reset.

I believe, in some ways, the conclusions that KOTOR and NJO drew were, in the end, just too radical, and dare I say it, advanced. It took the ideas of the OT, PT, and then took them to their logical conclusion, but apparently this is something that you shouldn't really do with Star Wars -- or anything really, I guess, considering I don't see these ideas in many places period. Apparently it was a grave heresy, taking away the simple black vs. white narrative -- because the life-embracing, transcendent message of NJO was promptly retconned in DNT, LotF, and FotJ afterwards, mostly by one author (whose own greatest height came during NJO itself!), but also shared by other authors in on the plot. And there's been no sequel to KOTOR II -- no true sequel, anyway. There's a reason, I think, for that. There's a reason these ideas only got really fleshed out in books and games and then were promptly abandoned the second they came to their conclusions. The moment you have ideas that mirror Nietzsche or serious existentialism or challenge traditional ideas of morality/selfhood/choices, your story has a target on its back from a lot of people who just want swashbuckling. And from people who have beliefs that stand in the way of hearing the potential of these ideas. Apparently it's all fine and dandy if the hero is still "searching" and comes across these ideas, because they can just be later labelled as "dark side stuff." But the second they actually stand by them, and the material commits to that vision, suddenly it's like a pitchfork parade has shown up. Or it's: prepare for your story to be promptly ignored and/or retconned. As both, in some regards, happened with NJO and to a certain extent KOTOR -- although each has very devoted fans in their own regard.

The fact that such conclusions of each series were not later built upon when just Lucasfilm owned everything is testament to the fact that we will probably never see it in Disney. The most we'll see is probably what we've seen in Rebels -- "there is a middle between dark and light" -- which, although interesting and nice in sentiment, will seem somewhat simplistic to someone who is familiar with the material that I've mentioned above. It can be built upon but I doubt Disney will do it. Lucasfilm didn't even continue that idea, although I do give them full credit for pursuing it in the first place -- something I don't think most sci-fi/fantasy series would allow. The conclusions these series drew -- morally, metaphorically, spiritually -- are a direct rebuke to the philosophy and beliefs of a lot of our culture today. It's treading on risky ground, just as risky as when Giordano Bruno or Friedrich Nietzsche did it (although they may not burn you or exile you for it today ). And I don't think the ideas of these series really ceased due to Lucas -- after all, Lucas is the one who dropped these seeds in the films for these series to build upon in the first place. Lucasfilm, either themselves or through choosing authors w/ Del Rey, did the deed. Now it is for Disney, an even more careful studio, to continue.

So instead of taking things in that rather interesting, natural direction NJO and KOTOR took it, so far we're getting what we got after NJO -- another Skywalker descendant has decided to go bad, kill his relatives, and rule the galaxy. Simpler that way, I suppose. But I prefer the waters of Legends.

 

You know you should write an essay on Nietzche Existentialism and the EU I would love to read it. And I think you have a point-authors like Stover, the KOTOR people, and arguably(on a good day) Luceno will take Star Wars in a more mature and thematic direction with its philosophical and metaphysical issues and questions dealt with seriously. But in the end Star Wars has its roots in Flash Gordon comic serials, and other aspects of swashbuckling-that will always be the most marketable and popular aspect of the franchise. And most companies/studios will gladly fork over money for the lightsaber duels, romances and ship battles but very few if any will support philosophical exploration and depth wholesale.

 

Thanks. And I agree, yeah.

Also, you are in for a bit of luck -- while it is not a full-fledged essay, I wrote a fair amount about it one day when the inspiration hit:

 

The legends EU is wonderfully unique because it wasn't rebooted six times in 30 years. It reall began with HTTE but they integrated other parts of it as well. Such as the Nagai, Lumiya, the bedlam spirits, and so on. It had such breadth and depth and wonder the only thing that can compare is LOTR in terms of scale. Though Star Trek has certainly done a lot of work in playing catch up and increasing standards what with Voyager, DS9, Titan novels and so on not to mention a Mirror Universe series but the efforts at collaboration in that franchise only really started last decade and I don't think will ever have the scale of the EU by any means.

I find it depressing the amount of media buzz over Rogue One and Internet hubbub over the new trilogy-it feels like the sand is slipping from my hands.

 

If it's having that effect on you then you need to put that to one side and focus on the facts that:

• Legends is still being printed
• Legends is therefore still selling
• Legends is being enjoyed by new people all the time.

As some guy once said: Your focus determines your reality.

 

Again, just sayin'.

 

Raknorak can't come soon enough

 

Between the two of us, we can make this clip a thing here, like the whole "K'Kruhk's Sweet Hat" thing or the whole "Grand Admiral Jello is Really a Pro-New Order Core Worlds Loyalist" thing...

I mean, the best way to cope with a problem is to laugh at it, surely?

 

Anyone have a list of characters alive before and after the NJO series? Want to get an idea so I can write some stories or just get the juices flowing

 

The EU still being in print doesn't mean a whole lot, because new people aren't likely to look into it beyond mild curiosity and won't likely take it seriously or consider it remotely an equal to the new canon.

 

Zeta, that's not helping.

Besides which it should be enough that people are buying the material and enjoying it!

 

He's right though at best it will be viewed as a cultural or historical curiosity, at worst nerd trash before Saint Disney saved Star Wars or something.

 

OK, I'm telling you both, right now - these flames you're fanning? Not a good idea.

We have no way of knowing how anything will be viewed by the future, but looking for ways to screw over your mental health due to a corporate decision is very, very dumb.

 

Really, we have no way of knowing? I think one of the highest grossing films of all time has made the future reaction quite apparent. LFL under Kennedy and Disney looks like a genius and all but guarantees that we will be seeing films, films, and more films that simply don't fit in the Star Wars universe as I see it for the foreseeable future, especially if Rogue One is successful.

 

Yeah, I'm actually legitimately a bit worried about you two. As much as we all love Star Wars, it's fiction. In the big picture, it doesn't matter all that much. I feel like you guys might need to take a little break from Star Wars for a bit and, sort of re-calibrate your sensors a bit. Dwelling on it doesn't seem to be helping at all.

 

Then you need a more positive way of dealing with that Zeta than that which you've demonstrated.

 

I can't help finding these EU vs canon debates confusing. I mean, I do get it because I was upset when the reboot occurred. I spent the months leading up to the reboot arguing that it was not necessary and a bad decision. Then when the reboot came I said I was done with Star Wars books and was going to stick to the movies. Due to various reasons I soon changed my mind and decided to give the new stuff a chance and it turned out I really liked it. I'm not saying everyone will, I'm mostly saying that I have been on both sides of this and can see the reasoning. Now though, I love both canons and they are both special to me, so these continued debates are perplexing.

I can't explain how much I love the EU. I got into it in my early teens a couple years after ROTS was released. If it wasn't for the EU I probably wouldn't love Star Wars as much as I do. My interest would have faded. However, with the EU, I found a whole new universe filled with stories and characters I had never heard of. I was quickly discovering a large and vibrant universe and every moment of it was fantastic. In a couple years I had read most of the Bantam books and the NJO and LOTF. This post ROTJ era was better than I could have imagined and it became my Star Wars. Not the movies, but these books were what I enjoyed above all the rest. I couldn't imagine the universe without these characters and events. I found the continuation to the story that I always wanted. The Thrawn Trilogy was my Sequel Trilogy and the NJO was a fun continuation. Then I moved into the prequel era novels and found those movies supplied with more depth than I could have imagined. I loved that era so much. And then my look into the multimedia project brought me stories that I had hinted at when I was a young kid. I was in early primary school when AOTC was released and so while I didn't follow the multimedia project I heard references to it (my Boba Fett books had the timeline, and I watched the micro series and saw the toy commercials). So a lot of those events had a role in my imagination and I finally began to see them play out. This is how I got into comics, I wanted to experience the multimedia project and then fell in love with the medium and had access to more great stories. During the next few years leading up to the reboot I would buy additional stories all over the timeline and would reread stories. Like I said, the EU became my Star Wars, the thrill at discovering such a deep universe is a very valued memory and one I would never want to get rid of. So I can understand the disappointment or why people may not want to read the new stories.

I chose not to give up on Star Wars during the reboot. At first I wanted to, I felt weird with the idea of entering into a Star Wars universe without so many of the elements I loved. One of the things that helped me with the idea was TCW. This definitely reveals my bias is some ways since the reboot began with that show in a sense. I had just watched the show for the first time and really liked its original characters and its portrayal of Anakin and Obi-Wan whose friendship had only occasionally been handled well. Also though the first books that were announced included John Jackson Miller and James Luceno, two of my favorite Star Wars authors. Also, I loved Star Wars too much to just stop buying the books. After a while, I became excited with the idea of watching the universe be developed again and be able to relearn stuff. So I gave the new books a try and they did a lot of things I liked and I felt like it was worth continuing. I have to say, I have never been disappointed by my decision. Watching the Star Wars universe be developed and reading stories as the come out is a lot of fun. I love seeing the new connections between stories. It is as enjoyable as discovering a large and vibrant universe. Or things like them bringing Thrawn back. That was a pleasant surprise and Rebels has handled him very well. I would never want to lose either experience. I love both canon and Legends and would never want to lose either one. As I became more positive towards the reboot there is one thing I noticed about Legends that I believe is important. After the NJO the stories were really bad. Characters were no longer in character and the plots lacked substance. The books hardly felt like Star Wars to me and reading them wasn't any fun. This refers specifically to LOTF and FOTJ; there were some good books such as Kenobi that do not fit this trend. That's the problem though; the main series wasn't good and was taking the universe in a bad direction. I had spent the years before the reboot saying we needed to stop with big three stories and focus mostly on minor characters and side conflicts because the stories were so bad and had ceased making sense. It was time for a reboot. I don't think the post NJO could have been repaired.The reboot has revitalized the franchise in a lot of ways and has made it better. Thinking this doesn't mean not being an EU fan; they are completely compatible.

I guess my reason for posting this is to just share my views on this matter.

 

Take a break from Star Wars heresy! Oh no there are other things that hold my interest/attention besides Star Wars-Star Trek, LOTR, a few other things. Not to mention RL events and my own personal little world

 

First of all, I don't think the tie-ins were ever that influential. They were always an extra resource for the those who wanted more from the franchise, never a core piece of it. So what if it's only viewed as a curiosity of the past? We all connect to the franchise in different ways. For many new fans, the sequels/Disney stuff will be their Star Wars, much like the Legends stuff is your's. And that's perfectly okay.

Also, speaking as someone who was reading Legends way back when it was canon, I do think that the Disney reboot "saved" the tie-ins, so to speak. Look at it this way, I was disliking or outright hating the majority of new books being written. Even taken it on its own terms, Disney has done one heckuva job with what they've made, so I do think they deserve sone credit in that regard. Even if a reboot was the worst possible option (I think not, but whatever), they did pull it off masterfully.

A lot of the later years Legends stuff didn't "fit the Star Wars universe" as I saw it (think Legacy of the Force onwards). The franchise has been evolving and changing over time since it was started. And the reboot has allowed for new characters and stories to be created that couldn't've been made before. New doors have been opened. I will concede it sucks when the changes don't go your way (as a Spider-Man fan, I know firsthand what it's like when what you like gets mutated beyond recognition), but I've come to the conclusion that, with any franchise, it's best to get involved with the stuff you like and let the rest be.