PT The great things about AOTC

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by d_arblay, Mar 12, 2011.

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  1. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Indeed. Thats a truly wonderful move. You gotta love Obi-Wan's frustration and lack of concern as well. Again, its just the norm. Its all in a day's work for them. He knows Anakin's in no danger. What a great moment.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Well said. And on the part that I boldfaced--I don't know why I hadn't given it much thought, but yes, wow. Total double meanings there.

    I love the speeder chase scene.
  3. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I make a slightly different reading of that scene. Obi-Wan "hates" Anakin doing things like that because it makes Obi-Wan's heart pound. He fears for Anakin's safety, like a parent fearing for their child. It's sort of like him saying, "Oh, there he goes, showing off again. He'll probably be alright, but JEEZE!". It anticipates Obi-Wan's later line at the end of the car chase sequence/beginning of the bar hunt: "Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?"* Quite touching, especially in light of what happens on Mustafar in ROTS. This part of AOTC is WONDERFUL. To me.

    *NOTE: Just an extra thing about that latter line of Obi-Wan's: As well as being an exasperated quip about what Anakin does to his (Obi-Wan's) nerves/sanity/peace-of-mind, a lot of people read this as a projection of Vader killing Obi in ANH. Yes, it works on that level. But what these people miss, I think, is that it also applies to the end of ROTS and the PT. The "prequel" Obi-Wan is effectively "killed" by Anakin's turn and what he feels he must do, and does do, to Anakin at the end of their duel. Obi-Wan dies a spiritual death. When he goes into hiding on Tatooine, in communion with Qui-Gon, watching over Luke all those years, oppressed by the trauma of losing Anakin and being responsible, in part, for the fall of an entire way of life, yet hopeful for the future and the chance to make amends, with a greater (though still flawed) sensitivity for other people and their frustrations and desires, he is effectively reborn.
  4. SambX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2011
    star 1
    Yes, basically.
    While the "sand"-scene is not one of my favourites by far, I never thought of it as a "love only"-scene.
    I always thought it was intended to emphasize the character's different childhoods. It reminds us where Anakin is from. He is from Tatooine, sand is everywhere. Of couse he doesn't like sand, but: Anakin describes sand as "coarse, rough and irritating" - it's just like he is describing his character. He is quite irritating and concernig human interaction "coarse", ungainly, awkward. Padme on the other hand was raised on a fertile world and hence her character is much softer.
  5. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Well I make that reading too, to a certain degree. When I say lack of concern, its not to suggest an absence of concern - its more about highlighting how different our reaction would be were it our friend or relative who did something like that. His more muted reaction than expected reveals that this isn't unusual and that he's pretty sure Anakin will come out of it in tact. I think what frustrates him more than anything else seems to be his Padawan's spontaneous, somewhat impatient, and dismissive nature - in jumping out of the speeder like that, he's essentially running away from and ignoring the lecture Obi-Wan so badly wanted to give him. There's an eagerness too that Obi-Wan (if not now) one day fears will get Anakin into trouble if he keeps giving in to it. Its like when Obi-Wan lands and sees Anakin running into the club, chasing Zam on foot - "patience... he went in there to hide, not to run" etc. There's perhaps a little bit of envy on Obi-Wan's part too. To criticise Anakin's decision to hijack Zam's speeder from such a height itself would seem a little hypocritical of him, given the fact its pretty much the same move Obi-Wan performed himself to latch onto the Assassin Droid not long earlier. When Anakin does it though, I think Obi-Wan's frustration arrives partly because he's not in control, and perhaps almost as much because Anakin is capable of such feats at such a young age... in some ways, Obi-Wan might well feel like his apprentice is showing him up or indeed just showing off.
  6. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    That's a very good, nuanced reading. By and large, I concur. :) Quite a lot of depth in these movies, when read a certain way, isn't there? Yes, "muted reaction". There is a dryness or glib quality to Obi-Wan's remark that does, indeed, suggest he is accustomed to Anakin doing this, and he's pretty sure Anakin will be okay. I do sense a fairly big tonal shift between Obi-Wan's lecturesome tone and the quip itself, however. In other words, I'm unclear how much disdain/annoyance Obi-Wan has toward Anakin dodging a lecture, like he's probably done a bunch of times before (though it is funny to think about). I guess it's your wording that makes me distance myself slightly from that fine-grained interpretation. You say Obi-Wan wanted "so badly" to do give this lecture, but his little outburst strikes me more as some peevish lashing out. In making this quip to the audience, almost, Obi-Wan realizes he has been undercut and out-maneuvered by Anakin who was already thinking ahead and simply buying time in a bigger plan (whereas Obi-Wan thought Anakin's shortcut itself was the full extent of Anakin's plan, and had, by common coin, failed). In a way, then, Obi-Wan is saying he hates the way Anakin goes ahead and does things without telling him; especially when it involves jumping out of a hovering vehicle (yes, I'll crumble a bit: as Obi-Wan is lecturing him and attempting to prove his superior knowledge). He fears for Anakin, at least a little, because he fears for what Anakin is doing to his own sanity and his ability to get Anakin to follow the Jedi Code and do Obi-Wan proud (ironic in light of Qui-Gon's general attitude to such things). I like what you said about envy, too. That's interesting. I hadn't quite thought of that before. Yes, there could actually be some truth to Anakin's protestations about Obi-Wan being "jealous" of his skills (or tenacity). Hmmm. It's a very clever moment, is this, with a lot compacted into it, I
  7. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    A bit of both probably :p

    And yeah, I was a little absent-minded when I said Obi-Wan wanted "so badly" to give him a lecture. You're right about that. He didn't, I don't think. But I would say he genuinely thought Anakin had messed up and felt he had to let him know the error of his ways... something Anakin clearly didn't have time for (nor later when he's about to enter the nightclub). In fact, I wonder whether or not Anakin would have adopted the same method for intercepting Zam had Obi-Wan not started giving him grief. I'd need to watch it again but as I recall, Anakin has the idea just as Obi-Wan begins criticising him (looking over the edge before consulting his feelings to assess the exact timing of the jump etc.) He's almost saying to himself "not this again. if only i could just leap out of this thing" which might have sparked the eureka moment itself.
  8. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    What a diplomat! O:)

    I don't know. I think Anakin wanted to surprise Zam by landing on Zam's car all along. It seems, to me, he went that way to give Zam the slip, so that he could then surprise Zam by later dropping from the sky and arriving just-so. Something that Zam wouldn't predict. And, as it turns out, neither did Obi-Wan. In a way, then, Anakin's "If you'll excuse me", which is said with a certain tinge of pride and humour, is Anakin proving right then and there that he was already thinking ahead of Obi-Wan; and Anakin managing to avoid the brunt of Obi-Wan's annoyance is a secondary (if anticipated) bonus (literally, because he jumps out of the car, and more importantly because he has planned to prove Obi-Wan wrong with a clever feat: "He was a cunning warrior"). It's like Anakin knew he was going to be bashed by Obi-Wan and decided it was worth a moment's pain so that he could have the last laugh; and actually succeed in capturing Zam. That said, maybe Obi-Wan inspired him by leaping through the window onto that droid, and then with Anakin forced to rescue Obi-Wan by aiming his car below, so that he would catch him, he thought, "I can go one better", risking life and limb to complete a makeshift mission: remember, Obi-Wan told Padme they were there to protect her, not to launch an investigation, which is when Anakin challenged him, thus beginning this turn of events. Anakin, then, does have something to prove here. And I don't think he would just jump out of the car on a whim. He had to have known in advance that Zam was heading on a certain trajectory at a certain speed in order to time his jump accordingly. If anything, Obi-Wan's ear-bashing would have put him off were he not already concentrating on what he was about to do next. That's my take on things, anyway.
  9. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah thats a perfectly valid take. There's no wrong or right on such things. But I still think that Anakin genuinely got himself into a bit of a mess and came up with a spontaneous solution - which, when you think about it as such, was no less cunning, and almost more impressive given how quickly he adapted. I certainly don't see much other than a tinge of bitterness and a large helping of regret when he says "I'm deeply sorry, Master".

    So yeah, I think Anakin thought he knew the direction Zam was heading. But when Anakin took his "short cut", and found Zam nowhere to be seen, while initially disappointed, its more than possible that Obi-Wan's inevitable reaction made Anakin wish for an escape... as they say, for the ground to "swallow him up". And Anakin may have suddenly realised through this alone the alternate route below that Zam must have taken.

    Just my take of course. Its great it can be read numerous ways, I guess. I wouldn't dispute your interpretation. But I think mine's got some legs too ;)
  10. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Yeah. It's entirely possible that's exactly what happened. I think he planned it, however.

    Gotta disagree with this one. He sounds terribly sarcastic, to me.

    "I'm deeply sorry, Master!"

    Go listen. It's: "I'm sorry you're so quick to jump to conclusions. Can't you have a little more faith? Anyway, you'll have to excuse me, because the next part of MY *plan* is heading into position now. See ya later, Master..."

    That's what I get from it, anyway. I think it's a very cute moment. Puts a smile on my face that Anakin is being so sarcastic. Like, lighten up, Kenobi. He does the same thing earlier when Obi-Wan complains about him taking his time (because Obi-Wan impulsively decided to jump out a high-rise window). "Oh, you know, Master. I couldn't find a speeder I liked..." Then there's that retort from Obi-Wan: "If you spent as much time..." And Anakin's cheeky riposte: "I thought I already did!" Then one last volley from Obi-Wan: "Only in your mind, my very young apprentice!" Notice the little glance Anakin shoots back at him right after this, like Anakin is saying to himself, "OK, he wins this one!".

    It's a fair interpretation. Mine's simply better. :p

    Why has this started to oddly mirror the Anakin-Obi-Wan banter we're actually talking about? [face_whistling] :D

    Now you'll have to excuse me, d_arblay. I'm going... for a drink. [face_mischief]
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Both of you ^ =D= have captured the essence of that scene. Fond and not-so-happy parental concern mixed with a teacher's "he's not listening. Again." frustration; Anakin's "Shut up; trust me, Master" attitude - oh, there's so much there to interpret.
  12. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah I can understand that take on it. It could be sarcasm. But I'm not sure its that distinct. I get the sense Anakin is genuinely bereft of ideas at that point and feels he's dropped the ball somewhat. I did mention bitterness, because it's not sincere to the point where Anakin isn't hacked off that he's given Obi-Wan another chance to slate him (thats that element where you're probably getting the sarcasm from). I'd probably need to watch it again though. I'm taking from a memory that (though clear) could have been conveniently distorted over time.

    As for your interpretation being better? "Only in your mind, my very young apprentice" ;)
  13. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Is the novel as reference ok to this discussion: the "Yes, Master," was portrayed as an absent-minded response by a deeply concentrating Anakin - he was focused on the when to make his move & paying almost no attention to Obi-Wan even as he "tried' to placate him.

    It did come across in the movie as somewhat insincere; the question is was that the intent?
  14. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Yes. And thank you. Regardless of mine and d_arblay's thoughts, there's a lot you could say about the psychological dynamics of this scene/sequence; in my opinion.

    That's an astute observation. I can go with that. It's cute if Anakin does make a last-second decision to get the upper-hand and escape further scolding. But it also works if Anakin has planned to intercept Zam more sneakily. I mean, he takes a shortcut, right? So, by that logic, Anakin should come out ahead of Zam anyway. But Obi-Wan immediately thinks Anakin has lost "him" (another erroneous assumption on Obi-Wan's part). Zam did not go "completely the other way"; Anakin was tracking her; or he at least knew the lay of the land enough to expect her to go a certain way (therefore, by default, he has to actually wait). Obi-Wan's own abilities next to Anakin's are actually in some doubt in this whole section: e.g., Anakin senses the danger Padme is in when the critters are almost upon her ahead of Obi-Wan, who seems to compensate (i.e., save face) by saying, "I sense it, too!" before dashing in. In fact, Obi-Wan almost spells it out after this whole section:. i.e., when talking with Yoda and Mace, he says that Anakin's abilities have made him arrogant, suggesting that Anakin is very adept, and possibly his equal or superior in some senses.
  15. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Referencing the novel again (books are sooooo much deeper), Anakin was several steps ahead of Obi-Wan in that scene. While Obi-Wan muttered about "losing him" Anakin was counting until it was the right time to leap.

    So in that scene, I do think Anakin was more attuned or whatever then Obi-Wan, though in the master's defense, falling so many stories probably had him a bit shook up. Still, it's a give to Anakin.

    Sensing the crawlies, though - I think Obi-Wan was only a heartbeat behind Anakin, which is fairly insignificant in my view.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Good discussion. [face_peace]

    I think Obi-Wan was both the concerned parent figure and exasperated at Anakin for being rash--which can go hand in hand. (If you met my almost-6-year-old, you'd know on what level I understand this. [face_laugh] )

    I also think Anakin's "I'm deeply sorry, Master" was a bit sarcastic, as in, "You know I can do this, why do you underestimate me?" But I also think he meant every word he said about Obi-Wan being like a father.
  17. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    They are? ;)

    I think you can apply that to the "critters" moment, as well...

    Good defence of Obi-Wan. That and Anakin almost nose-diving and crashing the speeder for an adrenaline rush (while Obi-Wan was pooping his pants). Poor Obi has had a tough time keeping it together.

    True. It amuses me that he says how he senses it "too", however. Like he had to let Anakin know to clear himself or something.

    Ain't it? [face_mischief]

    It is a favourite moment of mine, so I like where this has gone. :)

    Oh, there's a lot of concern there, alright. Like when he confides in Captain Typho that he hopes Anakin doesn't try anything foolish while escorting Padme. Or when he later says outloud to himself and R4 that he hopes nothing bad has happened to Anakin when he can't reach him.

    Yep. That's where some of the disappointment lies. A need to impress and be accepted. Trusted. Which he feels he never quite achieves.
  18. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Makes sense, yeah. Seems like a high risk strategy to me though. Anakin loses his lightsaber and very nearly his life.

    The way I read it, its possible that Anakin predicts Zam will go one way and moves his speeder into the approximate path he expects her to cross. When Zam is nowhere to be seen at the point expected by both Obi-Wan and Anakin, genuine disappointment ensues... and only then, upon yet another lecture does Anakin realise the alternate route Zam must have taken along the way, directly below.

    But both work really well, either way. Who'd have thought we could have such a long discussion over just one little moment :) I suppose there is an alternate option that hasn't been mentioned (and easily the funniest if you ask me) - in jumping out of the speeder, Anakin isn't actually trying to intercept Zam at all. He's just so tired of Obi-Wan's putdowns that he'd rather risk suicide in hitching a lift off any old passing speeder below... and merely gets lucky he finds Zam's :p
  19. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    It's been a good sidebar, d_arblay. I was actually giving some thought to the "suicide" interpretation myself! I guess the scene is a little ambiguous on even this level. My feeling is that the capture of Zam was strongly on his mind, in order to impress not only Obi-Wan but his would-be girlfriend/wife, and to help apprehend the real culprits behind the plot to assassinate her. Anakin is a guy with renewed drive and purpose with Padme around. As he says: "just being around her again is... intoxicating". He is wooed by her power and beauty. And as the saying goes: a drunken mind speaks a sober heart. The idea that he's always clashing with Obi-Wan may actually be something of an exaggeration; rather, we're seeing him begin to assert his own independence and ideas in action and word (because of Padme). I think he's going the extra yard with his mission to capture Zam. It's important he succeed. Note that it also rhymes up with story events in TPM: chiefly, where a high-performance yellow vehicle is involved. Although he's helping out Qui-Gon, he's also spurred on in the podrace because Padme, an "angel", is watching him. Similarly, he bends Qui-Gon's order to "stay in that cockpit" when he sees Padme and her team pinned down, starting it up to eliminate the threat ("We gotta do something, Artoo!"). Padme is a very big reason Anakin is half the person he is. And yes, you can take that phrasing several ways. [face_peace]
  20. Obi-WanLikeaBoss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2011
    I adore Obi-Wan in AOTC. His humour is spot on, dry wit, sarcasm, ironic lines (why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me", and the obvious concern he has for Anakin is touching. He is also very wise, and has really come on. He is diplomatic and seems a very genuine person.
    It really annoys me that Anakin feels the need to ignore his advice, and throw tantrums about it, when Obi-Wan is just trying to make him the best Jedi he can.For example, he ignored his advice to take Count Dooku together, and messes it up.
    Obi-Wan has some great fighting scenes, proving his worth with a lightsaber, and is an all round awesome character.
    I really like the scenes in the arena, and I really like the showdown with Count Dooku, first Obi-Wan's capture, and the subsequent fighting after. I think AOTC is a stronger film than TPM overall.
  21. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    for me EVERYTHING that happens in the arena are some of the best parts of that movie. I love all the arena scenes.
  22. WatTamborWoo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2011
    star 3
    AOTC is my favourite in the SW Saga. There are so many things I like about it and many people have already listed them!
    One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is how well-envisioned and well-edited the conversation is between those in Palpatine's Office, Ob-Wan on Geonosis and Padme/Anakin on Tatooine. They are having a long conversation across three planets uniting three story arcs leading into the final reel of the film. Great stuff!
  23. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    I've enjoyed so many of the comments in this great thread and agree with may of them. I also love the line "Always a pleasure to meet a Jedi."

    I thought one of the most incredibly brilliant things George did in Attack of the Clones was the staging of the Fireplace Scene.

    THIS SCENE, IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, IS THE FORESHADOWING FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO ANAKIN AND PADME ON MUSTAFAR IN REVENGE OF THE SITH.

    (1) Look at how Padme is dressed with that black thing around her throat. It looks like a hand choking her. And that's exactly where these two will end up. Anakin will reach out with that black glove and try to kill her.

    (2) Look at the setting. It's a room with a fireplace. In fact, everyone refers to this as the "fire place scene." This also is foreshadowing of Mustafar in Revenge of the Sith. When Anakin chokes Padme in Episode III, it's in a very firey place.

    George is, at times, a very clever and subtle artist, and very visual. He loves to do stuff like this and I'm surprised how few people caught it.
    Corran1138 likes this.
  24. MissPadme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Wow, never thought of that before!

    --MissPadme
  25. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Look carefully at the mantlepiece above the fireplace, at those two cups, with the two lovers. Lucas is invoking the imagery of the Tarot, the romantic pair exchanging chalices in the Two of Cups. It's a compositional echo of the Adam and Eve imagery of the Lovers, which is doubly reflected in the card for the Devil, which portrays the lovers in Hell with chains around their necks.
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