The Gusher's Supplemental to the Basher's Sanctuary.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
  2. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
  3. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Smuggler, are you asking because you don't know or because you want to argue a point? Well, let me answer the first eventuality, and defuse the other as well, all at once and just in case.

    A gusher is a name used on this board to define a type of fan. In most cases, I see it used to define fans according to how they felt about The Phantom Menace (TPM). Gushers generally were not disappointed in the movie, whereas Bashers (their ideological opposites in this matter) generally WERE disappointed.

  4. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    When has Lucas ever stated that he did not "borrow" from other literary works and themes. Hey, that's the sign of a great storyteller: steal a page from someone else's book. The success of Star Wars is due to the fact that it is full of themes that man has been familiar with for ages. It's stuff we can relate to. It's what makes it great!

    I don't think Lucas' imagination or vision should be downplayed. If it didn't take much imagination to come up with SW, then how come we only have one "STAR WARS" story? Knowing Hollywood, shouldn't there be tons of movies/trilogies with the same appeal and fascination as Star Wars? The fact is there is not. I can not think up one series of SF movies that would even compare. If someone else can, I'd love to hear it. (And Star Trek does not count! ;))

    Peace out! :D



  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    What did Picasso say "Good artists borrow, but great artists steal."

    You can go on about Tolkien's theft of Norse and middle-European myth as well. ;)

    Is Tolkien a thief for taking an idea and givin it his own spin?

    Last night I watched a docu-film on "Ramblin" Jack Elliot, a 50's and 60's era folksinger. Bob Dylan became a close friend and was heavily influenced by him.

    Dylan would take aspects of Elliot's performance and duplicate them move-for-move. Elliot was honored that a youngster was that interested. Dylan performed covers of Woody Guthrie song. Does this make him a thief? He bacame popular on the backs of others. Is he a thief? :confused:
  6. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    The short answer is "it depends on whether or not that material is copyrighted."

    Tolkien "stole" from the public domain, as did Lucas. But Lucas has also lifted material protected by U.S. copyright law and international treaties.

    Whether or not this taking arises to the level of something that violates the law is another question, one that Lucas is often asked to answer in lawsuits.

  7. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Jabadabdoo : What the $%&* are you talking about man!? Lucas stole copyrighted material: what? from who? where? huh?!?!
  8. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    >>I don't think Lucas' imagination or vision should be downplayed. If it didn't take much imagination to come up with SW, then how come we only have one "STAR WARS" story?<<

    Well now it's because of copy right laws. Then it was because there was no new blood in Holleywood. Lucas was the first of a new generation--a generation to grow up with television and movies made for kids--to have a chance to make movies that reference his childhood. It is like what has been said many times, Star Wars was a movie that was destined to be made. If not Lucas, then some one like James Camron would have done it a few years later.

    >>Knowing Hollywood, shouldn't there be tons of movies/trilogies with the same appeal and fascination as Star Wars? The fact is there is not. I can not think up one series of SF movies that would even compare. If someone else can, I'd love to hear it. (And Star Trek does not count!<<

    The fact is no one else flooded the market with merchnadising for twenty years to keep people thinking about it. The longevity of Star Wars is not due to this false notion of timeless themes (because this is what get's you to apreciate the movie AS YOU ARE WATCHING IT), but rather due to the MERCHANDISING which keeps reminding you of it.

    Of course the special effects helped a lot too since Star Wars was the only movie where you could see such a realistic fantasy wolrd(s) :)

    I think had the second Mad Max movie been marketed like Star Wars, then it would have been nearly if not as big as Star Wars ever was. But it didn't have the MONEY behind it that Star Wars did--for marketing or special effects. And I may be wrong here, but I can't help but think that Star Wars being made in America helped it somewhat too at the time. I tell you the truth, the true force behind the success of Star Wars comes down to MONEY.

  9. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    It is like what has been said many times, Star Wars was a movie that was destined to be made. If not Lucas, then some one like James Camron would have done it a few years later.

    Bull$%^&! What's stopping James Cameron from doing his own "Star Wars". Or Ridley Scott, or any Hollywood director. Just because SW has already been done, doesn't mean they can't go out and do their own. Directors like Cameron are intrested in doing a picture and then moving on. They are not intrested in creating a "world" like the SW universe. It's that creation and sticking to it that Lucas should be applauded for.

    think had the second Mad Max movie been marketed like Star Wars, then it would have been nearly if not as big as Star Wars ever was. But it didn't have the MONEY behind it that Star Wars did. I tell you the truth, the true force behind the success of Star Wars comes down to MONEY.

    Mad Max as big as Star Wars??? I don't care if they had triple the budget of "Titanic", no way in hell they could have made that movie bigger than SW. What was Mad Max? It was a loner driving around in a post-apocolyptic world looking for gas and helping out a bunch of people along the way. It didn't have the themes like SW does. It doesn't have the depth! That's crazy talk man!

    And MONEY is a weak argument. I don't care how much money you throw at something, if it's good, it's good. If it's not, it's not. Look at all the big budget movies that Hollywood has churned out over the years. Look at some of the budgets. Movies suck or soar independently of how much money is spent on the making of it or merchandsing stuff. One case in point: the "Godzilla" remake starring Mathew Broderick. Blech!
  10. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    JBDBD, are you saying Lucas stole from literary works, films, and television? If so, which ones specifically?

    James Cameron?! WTF?!

    Lucas is no Spielberg and Cameron is no Lucas, in that descending order of talent.

    BTW, Star Wars wasn't made just in the U.S. It was in the U.K. and a few other places as well.

    Elstree studios prospered on Lucasfilm projects alone for 5-6 years.
  11. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    >>And MONEY is a weak argument.<<

    It is true that no amount of money can save a piss poor idea like that Godizilla movie you mention, but great idea+<money=greater succuss then great idea+>money. That's a simply fact. Next to merchandising, it is the special effects that made Star Wars so popular and you couldn't have either one of those without money.

    EDIT: Ofcourse great special effects are a dime a dozen today and much more is needed then that for success nowadays, but were talking late 70's early 80's here.

    >>What was Mad Max? It was a loner driving around in a post-apocolyptic world looking for gas and helping out a bunch of people along the way. It didn't have the themes like SW does. It doesn't have the depth!<<

    Mad Max deals with different themes then Star Wars, true, but they are every bit as timeless. It is actually more character driven then Star Wars which is more plot driven. With only the fewest lines of dialogue, it deals superbly with all the gritty stuff Star Wars glosses over. It deals with having to live day to day with the pain of death, the loss of loved ones, the loss of home and the loss of law and order which circles back to the termoil inside Max caused by the loss of his family. But I think you will find that Mad Max fallows the hero's journey every bit as much as Anakin does--the fall and return of the hero. Just as Star Wars is more then a punk farm kid leaving Tatooine to destroy the Death Star, Mad Mas is A LOT more then a loner driving around looking for gas-o-line. Plus I think more people could identify with Max more then they can with Luke and especially Anakin Skywalker. I mean how many of us have had someone come out of nowhere to tell us where our desiney lies. Most of us have to look for and fall into it like Max does.

    But really who cares about the story. I didn't when I was a kid. I loved Star Wars because of all the cool props, ships, costumes and special effects. It wasn't until I was in my teens that I grew to apreciate the the story aspects of it. Same with Mad Max. I loved it because of the costumes again, the cars, the innovative uses of everyday items and, of course, the action. Again, it wasn't until later, that I grew to apreciate it for the story. So with a little imagination I think anyone could see that with a little extra MONEY for special effects and endless merchandising, Mad Max could have been as great as Star Wars.
  12. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    >>Lucas is no Spielberg and Cameron is no Lucas, in that descending order of talent.<<

    I agree that that is true with Spielberg. I simply disagree with you there about Lucas. I put Lucas and Cameron on the same level.
  13. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Okay, finally, I'm getting to this. Yes, it's been MUCH more than a day. Sue me.

    :)

    As I mentioned on page 1, I've been asked to detail the WHATs of my list of disappointments with TPM. Again, I ask that you review my profile by clicking on my name and reading me to get an idea as to what sort of fan that I am, and know that I'm a very reasonable person but have misgivings about how TPM was done. I actually liked the movie overall, believe it or not. After all, it's a Star Wars movie. Even so, there are some weaknesses that I am sensitive to and thus I am squarely in the "basher" camp. I don't feel that TPM matched pace with the others in the saga as far as quality goes, despite the faults that the other movies had. Here goes:

    The Neimoidian accent/speech -- I thought this was a sloppy little part of the dialogue and could have been done better (such as subtitled).

    Dry acting in places -- I suppose you can defend this by saying the Jedi were supposed to be, but that quickly becomes a tired defense when nearly every character is that way at least once. Thus it starts to be less of a "Jedi thing" than it is a "TPM/director" thing. I think Jake Lloyd did good for a kid, but Valorum's stone-face greeting just didn't sit well with me, much in the same way as Portman's "everything depends on it" speech. Ugh.

    The whole Gungan/fool thing -- I feel that all of this blends with the OT like oil and water, and that just bugs me. I know GL can make his movies any way he wants, but it's lame that he subjects his fans to such a climate change. Plus, with as foolish as the Gungans were (especially their leader), I couldn't find much to sympathize with.

    Stupid battle droids -- How does the Trade Federation exist? It's a galaxy-wide entity whose leaders are morons, and their troops are inept at best. And battle-hardened? LOL, what a misplaced adjective. Battle-hardened means veteran, experienced, savvy. It indicates warriors whose battle psychology has been honed through experience. These are droids -- what's battle-hardened about them?

    Physics asunder -- I have a rough time appreciating the action in a movie when occasionally things reach out and slap me out of my immersion in the scene. Obi-Wan fell a hundred feet, landing right on his shoulder. Whatever. And he then later does some hand-spring leap from that pit and then changes direction over Maul and then manages to cut Maul in half without this awesome fighter reacting! Sloppy! It felt like Lucas needed to end it and was out of ideas. I could almost see the string pulling Ewan up...

    CGI -- I actually like CGI and find it to be THE tool to use these days. But only when it's done right. I'm no longer a "retro" who believes that the only good effect is one that you don't notice. Unfortunately, TPM's effects often move, ooze, or flail about in such a way as to appear cartoony. Jar Jar, for instance: he looks fantastically real when standing relatively still, but when he moves he dispels the realism. He windmills his arms around and moves stiffly like a character out of Toy Story. There's also a part where the Queen's ship blasts out of the hangar and it banks into the sky too quickly and it looks fake. This world is one with real people and things, and therefore its effects should not be cartoony or fake looking.

    Incidental contact -- the introduction of R2D2 and C3PO seemed awkward and forced, as did the token "caring for you" scene between cold Anakin and Padme.

    The Qui-Gon factor -- the impression I always had of Obi-Wan's decision to train Anakin was that Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train him as a Jedi. As in, "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda." This was an impression given me by Lucas' own previous work. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan's statement and TPM's plot play-out don't jive, but I am saying that it was a lot more tragic an event with Obi-Wan setting out to train Anakin on his own for the sake of friendship, as we were led to believ
  14. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Blackpool : You've convinced me to rent Mad Max this weekend; it's been a while since I've seen it; I'll have to take a look at it with different eyes! :)

  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "Okay, finally, I'm getting to this. Yes, it's been MUCH more than a day. Sue me."

    I've already filed my papers at the local courthouse. ;)

    "The Neimoidian accent/speech -- I thought this was a sloppy little part of the dialogue and could have been done better (such as subtitled)."

    I've had the same thoughts. Alien language? What happened to them in Star Wars?

    "Dry acting in places"

    The Jedi I can live with. They are stoic and that's great. But, as you pointed out, Jake Lloyd and Padme': Ugh. As for Valorum, hell he's hardly in it. That's my biggest beef with his character: He's hardly one at all.


    "The whole Gungan/fool thing"

    I didn't like how Boss Nass came off in part. That darn jowls thing. :(

    "Stupid battle droids -- How does the Trade Federation exist? It's a galaxy-wide entity whose leaders are morons, and their troops are inept at best."

    Yep. Great point. Of course, if they were so great then we wouldn't get Stormtroopers eventually, but as a enemy specifically for TPM, they just don't cut it.

    "Incidental contact -- the introduction of R2D2 and C3PO seemed awkward and forced, as did the token "caring for you" scene between cold Anakin and Padme."

    Oh man, the Padme' "...caring for you, but my feelings will remain"...arrghh!
    I liked R2's intro, but not 3PO's. His being built by Anakin....one connection too many.

    "The Qui-Gon factor"

    I don't mind Qui-Gon per se, but his whole "train the boy Obi-Wan, promise me" What?! OB1 decides to train Anakin out of a favor? What about a personal descision and failure? Where the hell is responsibility in TPM? Hell, it's not even Darth maul's fault!

    "Anakin's Lame Characterization -- In three words, that sums up my feelings about how this was done. First off, Anakin is TOO MUCH."

    Agree about building 3PO, but he's oaky to me as a whole. He's more like a child prodigy.

    "Anakin's Lame Characterization, Part 3 -- Let's just say his accidentalism near the end of the movie (you know, the part where he accidentally takes off, accidentally pushes the right button to shoot, accidentally engages the autopilot to join the space battle, dodging hostile fire more by mistake than by any Force/piloting skills, accidentally crashlanding aboard the Flying TF Donut, accidentally firing torpedoes at the exposed reactor... sigh) is disgusting."

    Agree 101% This ruins everything we've discovered about him previously:his ingenuity, his ability to fix things during tense situations, and his calmness under extremem pressure. Now it's "Whoah!", "Ahh!", and "Whoops!". U-N-D-E-R-C-U-T-T-I-N-G.

    I too liked and enjoyed TPM very much. But, every time there was something to enjoy, it seemed something came along cringe inducing, or undercutting some great moments. :)

    All this cut and pasting reminds me: Where is Gome? :)

  16. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Physics asunder -- I have a rough time appreciating the action in a movie when occasionally things reach out and slap me out of my immersion in the scene. Obi-Wan fell a hundred feet, landing right on his shoulder. Whatever. And he then later does some hand-spring leap from that pit and then changes direction over Maul and then manages to cut Maul in half without this awesome fighter reacting! Sloppy! It felt like Lucas needed to end it and was out of ideas. I could almost see the string pulling Ewan up...

    Okay, if you're worried about stuff like this, then you shouldn't be watching these movies. SW is "fantasy". It is not "science fiction" in the traditional sense.
  17. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    This seems to have turned into the basher supplemental to the Gusher Sanctuary :)
  18. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
  19. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    The Neimoidian accent/speech -- I thought this was a sloppy little part of the dialogue and could have been done better (such as subtitled).

    Subtitles would have worked, true. But I thought the accent gave them character. It reminded me of a hissing snake. The snake = evil.

    Dry acting in places

    What more can be said about this. Guilty as charged.

    The whole Gungan/fool thing

    I too did not care for Boss Nass facial twitch. Didn't need it and his "accent" i thought was too much; even worse than Jar Jar.

    Stupid battle droids

    This is a setup for Episode 2 and 3 (or maybe just 2)

    Physics asunder

    Please see previous comment

    Incidental contact -- the introduction of R2D2 and C3PO seemed awkward and forced,

    I thought their meeting was quite creative. I didn't see it coming. I thought it added to C3P0's character by having Anakin be his creator. And how else would you get those two to meet.

    The Force and midichlorians

    I remeber being quite taken aback when I first saw this in the theater. My first reaction was "Aw f***, they're screwin' with the Force". But I now believe that this is leading to something...

    Anakin's Lame Characterization, Part 3 -- Let's just say his accidentalism near the end of the movie (you know, the part where he accidentally takes off, accidentally pushes the right button (etc)

    I too was dissapointed at first by this. But, maybe he was being led by the will of the force? Hmm? As Qui-go says in the movie: "Nothing happens by chance (accident)"

  20. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    I thought it added to C3P0's character by having Anakin be his creator. And how else would you get those two to meet[?]

    I always wondered what a slave mother of a slave son needed with a protocol droid. Does she have a lot of interstellar guests that she needs to occupy while she's in her board meetings?

    I too was dissapointed at first by this. But, maybe he was being led by the will of the force? Hmm? As Qui-go says in the movie: "Nothing happens by chance (accident)"

    Too thin. I don't want to need an explanation FOR it outside the movie. What I saw was what I saw: a kid goofing around as though he was in no real danger. In fact, the wording and all the events in Anakin's little accident scene made me think of when *I* was 8, rolling around in cardboard boxes and making explosion sounds that no one else outside my little world understood.

    I remeber being quite taken aback when I first saw this in the theater. My first reaction was "Aw f***, they're screwin' with the Force". But I now believe that this is leading to something...

    Oh trust me, that has occurred to me. My problem is, because I think the non-midi Force mythos was cooler, whatever this midi thing is leading to will be dumb.

    I'm looking forward to the next 2 Episodes, and hopefully the various small annoyances will be forgotten among the coolness in the following films.
  21. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    I wouldn't have minded Anakin being a child prodigy if Lucas characterized him like one and not a "normal" kid. That's the thing that bothers me about his character.
  22. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    I always wondered what a slave mother of a slave son needed with a protocol droid. Does she have a lot of interstellar guests that she needs to occupy while she's in her board meetings?

    [face_laugh] LOL! True enough. But on the same token, I didn't need a scale model of a WW2 Japanese Aircraft carrier, but I built that when I was knee-high to a grasshoper!
  23. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I wouldn't even have minded Anakin being characterized as a "normal" kid if only Anakin had been played by a child actor that could convince me that he WAS a normal kid, or if he had been in any way real.
  24. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I never saw Anakin as a normal kid. He builds his own pod and pilots it himself. This is akin to a 9 year old building a Formula One stock car and driving it himself.

    Early in the film, he's pretty resourceful and inventive. He even has the idea that leads to the heroes getting their parts.

    IMO, he's a very smart kid which is why the latter Annie during the space battle is annoying. It undercuts his development earlier in the film.
  25. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Well, that makes the awful acting even worse. Whichever characterization was intended, Jake Lloyd was simply incapable of pulling it off. That's not his fault, but Lucas should have known better. You'd think he had never cast a film before.
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