The Gusher's Supplemental to the Basher's Sanctuary.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. SW3TheHolidaySpecial Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Go-Mer and LukeCash,thanks for your perspectives.You both help me to enjoy this movie more.

    I was really suprised to see you agree with my assesment of Hugh's acting,Gomer,totally unexpected.

    I am not a basher,I love TPM,but parts of it bothered me just like parts of ESB bother me and I hope you guys enjoy episode 2 and can help to enjoy it more as well.
  2. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Binary Sunset posted a link to this page in the Sanctuary, and I thought it might be worth discussing.
    I'd like to correct two comments that the author makes, first of all:

    "note how, since the prequels, toystores no longer stock the 'permanent' StarWars shelf that has sat in the corner for two decades?"

    I don't know if Mr. Brown ever set foot in a toystore between 1985 and 1994, but I know for a fact that there was no Star Wars stuff to be found during that period, so it was hardly two decades. There definitely is less Star Wars stuff around since the TPM glut, but all major toystores still seems to have some SW area left, no matter how small.

    "But then again, this from the organisation founded and run by the man who told his most loyal long-term fans (who paid for his mansion) to "get a life"."

    When did Lucas say that? I thought it was William Shatner? :)

    Anyway, interesting article nonetheless.
  3. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    And totally off base...

    If you check out Newsweeks latest article...(I don't have the link handy) Lucasfilm had actually requested to scale back on the hype and the merchandising. They realize that the Hype actually did more harm than good for TPM

    This is the usual-Lucas is out to make money arugment that is wrong. Lucas has put most of the money he has earned BACK into his buisness... From all reports, he lives rather simply.

  4. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Yes, the media get it wrong yet again.
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Over the years I've got the most flack here for my criticism of TPM merchandising. I think in this case the vehemence of people's responses to my interpretation, the gut-wrenching level of vitriol and hatred aimed my way, was because, it turns out, I was exactly right. The Newsweek article confirmed everything I've argued over the last three years.

    People got so sensitive and defensive because I was exactly right. I predicted, time and time again that because of the licensing debacle of TPM,

    1) AOTC merchandising would be dramatically reduced because Lucas would scale back the licensing and because the licensees would jump ship. In other words, the merchandisers would not see the value in continuing, on the one hand, while Lucas would desperately try to shore up the fading market power of the Star Wars brand name. You can see it in the Pepsi deal. Before TPM, they announced a deal that would last through all three prequels. Now, neither Lucas nor Pepsi sees the benefit of continuing.

    2) Lucas would be staking his reputation on AOTC and had made an effort to respond to the criticism of TPM. He did this for artistic reasons, but he also did it for business reasons, to help reclaim the licensing power of the Star Wars brand name, which was, as Newsweek demonstrated, severely damaged by Episode 1.

  6. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    By the way, that article is one of the best examples of the kind of exaggeration I've been crusading against lately. Clearly, this guy's at least a token fan who, if he posted here, would be classified as a basher. And likely, if I were to make a list of disappointments, then ask him if he agrees, True/False, he'd likely agree wholeheartedly with me. Does that mean we agree on the kinds of things he wrote in the article?

    Heck no. The way he goes about arguing his points involve exaggeration and negativity. I can't agree with this at all. The whole two decades thing kinda rubbed me the wrong way, too. An effective argument for his points is one that doesn't hate-monger, wildly exaggerate, or come across as sourly negative.
  7. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I also found the article to be somewhat biased. However, there was plenty of solid truth.

    1) The three-movie deal with Pepsi was disbanded. Pepsi is a more powerful company than Lucasfilm, so you can assume that Pepsi would find it more easy to get out from under the contract than Lucas. However, getting out of the contract was mutually beneficial, for the reasons outlined above.

    2) Lucas apologized to Hasbro. That is evidence that the deal went sour for Hasbro. That Lucas walked away with a pile of cash but Hasbro did not really, truly benefit from the merchandising deal. Now, finally, Lucas is committed to working with Hasbro so that both companies make money. And since Lucas is (or was) a major stockholder of Hasbro, it makes sense for him to think long-range about it.

    3) merchandising was reduced by 2/3. Why? The market wouldn't bear it. If the merchandising had been a huge success, if everyone had made boatloads of cash from it, there would now be no talk of scaling back.

    I also want to note that, unlike some of the TPM merchandising apologists, I always made an effort to back up my arguments with facts. And it feels great to have Newsweek confirm everything I've written.

  8. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Which article are we talking about? I haven't read the Newsweek one.
  9. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Jabadabadoo

    I congradulate you on at least interpitating Lucas Comments as the film damaging the merchanding buisness. Many of your colluges are interpitating it as the "I admit it, the film was lousy"

    The case could be stated that the Merchandising Hype could have hurt the movie. (too much exposure, too much expectations) Remember, Lucas doesn't tell them how much of the produt to make. The problem is-the Merchandisng people based their prediction on what Star Wars did 25 years ago. They hurt themselves by over compensating. Lucas didn't make them do that stupid comunication chip... or do a cross promotion over THEE diverse Fast Food resturaunt instead of focusing on one.

    I think Lucas realizes this and that is why he is scaling back on the merchandising. And Lucas is letting them know of his plans...but this isn't news to us. Lucas has said the next two Star Wars movies were going to be much darker. So while this may be NEWS to the outside world, the faithful has always known.
  10. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    I absolutely hated TPM. Still, i enjoyed some things about it:

    1. The way Qui-gon stuck his saber thru the door.

    2. Watto. Ive said it before, but i found his "performance" to be the best in the whole dam "movie".

    3. The makeup for Darth Maul.

    4. Sebulba was pretty cool looking

    5. Palapatine was fine. No major complaints. Same with his other incarnation.

    there might be more, but i honestly cant think of anything at the moment...
  11. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Good for you, Dahveed.
  12. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    Another article quoted "TPM was a dog," from Lucas. That doesn't sound a whole lot like JUST merchandising to me, (although I could be wrong).
  13. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    No, he meant TPM was loyal and obedient like a dog :)
  14. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I don't know if Mr. Brown ever set foot in a toystore between 1985 and 1994, but I know for a fact that there was no Star Wars stuff to be found during that period, so it was hardly two decades

    Kenner was not producing SW toys between 1986 - 1995.

    Now, neither Lucas nor Pepsi sees the benefit of continuing.

    But I have seen Pepsi products advertising AOTC. Are you saying Pepsi and Lucas parted ways?
  15. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Darth Torgo,

    Any idea what article?
  16. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, it is a repeat of the Newsweek article- with a very misleading headline.
  17. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Are you saying Pepsi and Lucas parted ways?
    Yes, they did, I think. Not sure of the reason, though. Was kinda vague in the article that I read it in.
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Malthus,
    I hope you'll forgive the excessively long reply, but I've been rather bored at work?

    :D
    >>>>I feel that George took a new direction with TPM, what with the clowny antics, the underdone/overused CGI in places, and the weak plot devices in several obvious attempts to smear explanations/excuses over events in an effort to create continuity. It strikes me more as the first movie he's done in 15 years than as the first Episode of the Star Wars saga, and that's too bad. He had a clean slate to start with and build a world in a better way than he did. And therefore I'm disappointed. It could have been better than this.

    Well, I think that TPM was supposed to show us a very different galaxy to the one of the OT, where we see something other than what we are used to from the OT (ie. heavily industrialised environments as opposed to societies like the Naboo, who are obviously more focussed on aesthetics than functionality, a military regime as opposed to a peaceful republic, freedom fighters battling for survival and change, as opposed to preserving their current way of life.) Obviously, as it's something different from the OT, a certain group of fans invariably get upset, and as the film making industry is very different to the industry in 1977 (notwithstanding the fact that the 3 prequels are clearly being made as a trilogy, rather than as a stand-alone film first with the possibility of sequels), the film could only have been made in a very different way to the OT.

    The thing is, I don't think that the "clowny antics" etc. is exactly a "direction"- even before TPM came out, the Jar Jar backlash etc, Lucas was talking about how it would be the most light-hearted of the saga, with the next two prequels getting increasingly dark, with the third being "not happy by any stretch of the imagination", obviously this "new" Star Wars galaxy will gradually change over the course of the next two films into the battle-worn Empire we are all familiar with. I mean, this is a story about how Anakin grows from the good little boy with hope, potential etc. into Darth Vader, the Jedi get wiped out and the Emperor rises to power- I never thought that those particular transitions will be interrupted by Jar Jar, pit droids and fart jokes...
    My point is that (IMHO) it seems rather pointless to complain about a direction that TPM seems to have set up the saga to head away from, rather than towards.

    I mean, back in 1999 every third "gusher" post was saying that "when Episode 2 comes out with less Jar Jar, I bet everyone says that it was the fans reaction that made him realise the mistake he'd made." And look what's in the media now...

    >>>>Stupid battle droids -- How does the Trade Federation exist? It's a galaxy-wide entity whose leaders are morons, and their troops are inept at best. And battle-hardened? LOL, what a misplaced adjective. Battle-hardened means veteran, experienced, savvy. It indicates warriors whose battle psychology has been honed through experience. These are droids -- what's battle-hardened about them?

    1) The Trade Federation presumably buys the battle droids. They don't make them. (By definition, their business is buying and selling- not manufacturing.) The Behind the Magic CDROM's Episode I preview mentioned that they were built in the image of their makers- there's creatures in one of the AOTC trailers which look remarkably like battle droids.
    2) "Battle hardened" simply means hardened through the experience of battle. The term was used (once) to contrast them with the hastily assembled Naboo "army", who obviously haven't had much to fight in their pretty city, and are inexperienced. Note that the droids had little trouble in defeating the Gungan army (until the control ship was destroyed, obviously), captured Amidala with little trouble (it was only because of the Viceroy's gullibility that they escaped again) and even held off the 2 Jedi at the start of the film.

    Obviously, the issue being raised is that with a droid army (which can be bought) anyone has the potenti
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    If that doesn't kill the thread, then I don't know what will...

    ;)
  20. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    My gyoot-ness! Perhaps your post won't kill the thread, but it may kill the server. ;)

    The thing is, I don't think that the "clowny antics" etc. is exactly a "direction"-
    You make some good points (but then I've learned to expect nothing less from you), especially in that the prequels will be heading INTO darkness, etc. But the direction of which I speak is more of the style in which the movie is made and the story is told, not the events which are told. See what I mean? I just didn't appreciate the heights to which Jar Jar and Anakin's clowning was taken (which is my opinion on these things), and I'm concerned as a fan that this is considered to be an acceptable means of entertainment for a saga that have never been quite that relentlessly and constantly goofy. Hence my concern for the direction. I don't want it to become a trend.

    Just my opinion, obviously, but I think there's a lot more to them than mere "Force-bugs" or a lazy way of GL showing Anakin's unique nature. (And that's assuming that we don't hear anything else about them in the next two episodes.)
    As I mentioned, I can see the value of needing the midichlorians, based on all the other events he set up in the movie. I don't see them as ruining the force or anything (not anymore), but there are other ways GL could have played this out and then arranged other events in the movie to support it. He chose this way.

    My contention with it was, as I said, completely subjective. I thought the non-midi Force was cooler, that's all.

    I don't think there was a big need to explain the force in a scientific way because the masses already accepted the Force as it was. They'd have been generally fine with accepting the Anakin was conceived by the Force, and we'd not have been lost if Anakin turns out to be special on the merits of his deeds and actions (eye-catching evidence of something special instead of a scientist's proof under a microscope).

    you're comparing grown adults who are either skilled or trained pilots and a (presumably self-taught) 9 year old kid winning a high-speed race, despite starting half a lap behind all the other racers. Big difference. (To be perfectly honest, I don't know how you could better prove his exceptional piloting skills than winning a big race at age 9 that humans can't normally even take part in!)
    I'm not denying he has good podracing skills. What I am saying is that's not proof to me that he is anything other than a quick kid. Because I didn't buy the line "I'm the only human who can do it." To me, that was a plot device 'patch' so that Lucas could point to his podracing as proof and then move on. A cheap thing. I don't buy that no human could do it because we see Lando steer the Falcon through the DS, the scout bikers dart between trees at reckless speeds, and Han somersault through asteroids.

    Out of interest, how would you demonstrate Force-prowess in a kid who isn't yet able to delilberately use/manipulate the Force, and has no idea of his own potential? (ie. has not yet been trained in the Jedi Arts.)
    An interesting question. I'm glad you didn't say "9-year-old kid" in that question, because then I'd say I was unable to answer it. I feel that, of all the different ways Lucas could have started the PT out, using a 9-year-old (which then naturally affects several other factors) wasn't as good as if you placed in an older Anakin. Because then you have fewer limitations on the other plot points that have to be covered. But I know you disagree on that.

    I'd have shown Anakin a little older and exhibiting habits that to him and those closest to him are unremarkable because they're habits he's had all his life, but to others they're astounding. An example: him playing cards and being able to "see" what the other players are holding. Granted, this is my opinion, but I feel that perhaps something along these lines would have been a better way to go.
  21. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    <reads above posts>

    AArrrggghhhh! My eyes!

    Great posts guys. We have thinking peeps here.
  22. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    You make some good points (but then I've learned to expect nothing less from you)

    Thanks!
    :D

    Because I didn't buy the line "I'm the only human who can do it." To me, that was a plot device 'patch' so that Lucas could point to his podracing as proof and then move on. A cheap thing. I don't buy that no human could do it because we see Lando steer the Falcon through the DS, the scout bikers dart between trees at reckless speeds, and Han somersault through asteroids.

    The thing is, take a look at the other aliens- all very small, presumably very light. I think the idea is that the reason humans can't podrace is because by the time they're old enough to display enough piloting skill, they're too big and heavy. (Which is a bit more visually exciting than a card game ;))

    I don't know... I guess if Anakin was displaying psychic powers and stuff, it would have made him into something obviously special. I think the fact that he doesn't seem to know that he's got Jedi potential will be a factor in the next two- when he thought he was just a kid who was good with machines etc. he was a good kid. When he starts getting big ideas about becoming the "most powerful Jedi ever" he starts getting above himself, and greed and pride kick in. I think that's where your suggestion falls down- because it would be too unbelieveable that he could have psychic powers and yet be unaware of his "specialness."
  23. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "If so, why was Portman basically just as stiff, deadpan and unemotional when she was being Padme? Hmm? HMM? Yes, I'm talking to you, "Gusher's Supplemental To The Basher Sanctuary"! Don't think I don't see you there, peering through that hole in the wall."


    I'll handle this :)

    I don't think Padme was unemotional at all. I thought the scene where she comforted Anakin on the starship was one of the most "human" moments in TPM. I also liked the scene between her and Jar Jar when she was cleaning Artoo (though Lucas did end the scene rather abruptly).
    She definitely had some stiff lines too, but she was only 16 when TPM was filmed. She probably didn't have enough experience as an actress to overcome some of Lucas's more "unique" lines. :)
  24. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, it's good to know that Lucas placed the weight of a multimillion dollar film on a sixteen year old and a nine year old. Great judgment.
  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Homer, I thought that scene was completely flat. Listen to her say it. It's like she's reading from a cue-card off screen. Many-things-will-change-Annie-but-my-feelings-for-you-will-remain.

    [face_laugh] What?! Why? Why will she feel this way about the little moppet? It's not only poorly delivered, but their relationship,as friends, had barely developed by then.

    Unimpressive,most unimpressive. :p
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