The Hall of Fame Debate

Discussion in 'Archive: The Arena' started by RealMadrid, Nov 27, 2006.

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  1. RealMadrid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 3
    I intend this thread to be a great place where we can debate the merits of those who are seeking induction into their sport's HoFs.

    Major League Baseball just released their list of 2007 Hall of Fame class candidates today.

    Name (Years on ballot)
    ? Harold Baines (1)
    ? Albert Belle (2)
    ? Dante Bichette (1)
    ? Bert Blyleven (10)
    ? Bobby Bonilla (1)
    ? Scott Brosius (1)
    ? Jay Buhner (1)
    ? Ken Caminiti (1)
    ? Jose Canseco (1)
    ? Dave Concepcion (14)
    ? Eric Davis (1)
    ? Andre Dawson (6)
    ? Tony Fernandez (1)
    ? Steve Garvey (15)
    ? Rich Gossage (8)
    ? Tony Gwynn (1)
    ? Orel Hershiser (2)
    ? Tommy John (13)
    ? Wally Joyner (1)
    ? Don Mattingly (7)
    ? Mark McGwire (1)
    ? Jack Morris (8)
    ? Dale Murphy (9)
    ? Paul O'Neill (1)
    ? Dave Parker (11)
    ? Jim Rice (13)
    ? Cal Ripken (1)
    ? Bret Saberhagen (1)
    ? Lee Smith (5)
    ? Alan Trammell (6)
    ? Devon White (1)
    ? Bobby Witt (1)

    There are 17 newcomers to the list and 15 holdovers from last year. There appears to be 2 mortal locks to make it in their first year, Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken. What will happen to Mark McGwire in his first year of Hall eligibility? Will the BBWAA make a statement by not voting for him despite his statistical legacy due to the steroids scandal? It seems clear that Jose Canseco and Ken Caminiti, who admitted using, will be judged harshly and may not make it due to this.

    I'm not sure what the debate is like for the other sports HoFs, but for baseball heated arguments occur over who deserves to be inducted. I personally think baseball's All-Time Career Hits King should be in the Hall of Fame based on what he did on the field. Some do not. I expect there to be great debate over who deserves to be in.

    IMO, Dante Bichette, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Tony Fernandez, Wally Joyner, Devon White and Bobby Witt will not get the necessary 5% of voters to vote for them and will be removed from next year's list.
  2. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    While I guess that stats are important in some ways, I personally fell to much emphasis is put on them. There have been plenty of champions that stats aren't as great. They lead their teams though, and when it comes right down to it, team sports are about teamwork.
  3. RealMadrid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 3
    But, we're talking about the Hall of Fame here, Juli. You have to put up some great stats to be considered to be inducted, although it seems with the inclusion of some players on the ballot, you just have to be retired for 5 years(at least for MLB).
  4. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    True but you know some NFL qbs are going to be inducted because of their production, which doesn't always reflect their stats.
  5. RealMadrid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 3
    How do you differentiate between the words "production" and stats in the context of the NFL qb's example you gave?
  6. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    Well there are winners like Troy Aikman and Tom Brady, but they don't excel in all of their stats. Dan Moreno was huge in stats, but never won a ring.
  7. Dal--Intrepid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 5
    Maybe Tommy John will end up in the Medical Procedures HOF someday and that'll cushion the blow.
  8. Baron-Soontir-Fel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2005
    star 5
    I loved the shrinkage of Mark McGwire's character and dignity at that Congressional hearing. It goes well with his er, 'diminished' manhood. There is no way that clown goes in this year at least.
  9. DarthIntegral Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    Now, that's an argument I never get. He deserves to be in the hall of fame, but not on the first ballot.

    Really? What is he going to do between now and next year that will raise his hall of fame credentials? Either he's a hall-of-famers, or he's not.

    (Not directed just about McGwire, but in general)
  10. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 6
    I agree, Baron.

    I hope that Garvey and Murphy in particular go in soon, I think those two deserve it, and hope they continue to stay on the ballot until they go in, even if it takes a while longer.

    As for the new guys, I agree, Ripken and Tony should and will go in.
  11. Baron-Soontir-Fel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2005
    star 5
    That is a good point, but he could still garner enough votes to linger around. Perception may change in say, ten years, depending on the direction the sport takes.
  12. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    I think getting in on first year is completely out of the question for McGwire. With Gwynn and Ripken up for the first time as well, they will monopolize almost all of the votes this year(as they should). This gives the voters a free pass to decide McGwire's status next year (and potentially the years thereafter).

    Personally, I think if McGwire doesn't get in, then none of the "tainted players" from the steroid era should get in, including Bonds. There hasn't been any definitive proof against him, Sosa, Bonds, other than circumstantial evidence and hearsay. If you are going to penalize McGwire because of such circumstantial evidence and unproven allegations, then you must do so with Bonds as well. It is all or nothing in my opinion.
  13. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Shame, shame on them for never admitting Buck O'Neill [face_plain]

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  14. primetime62 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 3
    Who would you vote for? Remember you may pick between 0 and 10 for the Hall as per BBWAA rules. My Pick's Below:

    ? Harold Baines (1)
    ? Albert Belle (2)
    ? Dante Bichette (1)
    ? Bert Blyleven (10)
    ? Bobby Bonilla (1)
    ? Scott Brosius (1)
    ? Jay Buhner (1)
    ? Ken Caminiti (1)
    ? Jose Canseco (1)
    ? Dave Concepcion (14)
    ? Eric Davis (1)
    ? Andre Dawson (6)
    ? Tony Fernandez (1)
    ? Steve Garvey (15)
    ? Rich Gossage (8)
    ? Tony Gwynn (1)
    ? Orel Hershiser (2)
    ? Tommy John (13)
    ? Wally Joyner (1)
    ? Don Mattingly (7)
    ? Mark McGwire (1)
    ? Jack Morris (8)
    ? Dale Murphy (9)
    ? Paul O'Neill (1)
    ? Dave Parker (11)
    ? Jim Rice (13)
    ? Cal Ripken (1)
    ? Bret Saberhagen (1)
    ? Lee Smith (5)
    ? Alan Trammell (6)
    ? Devon White (1)
    ? Bobby Witt (1)
  15. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I love Mattingly as much as anyone, but he'S never going to make it into the Hall, his numbers dropped too dramatically once his back problems started.

    I had thought of starting a thread yesterday specifically on McGuire, there was an article at espn.com about him. They did a survey of writers who vote (only about 25% of the total number of voters), a large majority said they wouldn't vote for him this year. A few, like Jerome Holzman, said they would vote for him eventually, but don't think he should go in on the first ballot.

    Some may remeber I suggested a poll on this in census. I voted no, he shouldn't go in at all, and I stand by that. His testimony before Congree was disgreaceful, and as close to an admission as you can possibly come. If you take away those years in the mid-90s when he was putting up insane numbers and replace them with numbers he'd put up before (30-40 HR per year), he's probably have finished with 450 HRs and a mediocre batting average (270-280), which would have put him no where near Hall of Fame consideration.
  16. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    What about Bonds then?
  17. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    An even tougher call than McGuire, in a way: no poor display in front of congress, and was well on his way to the HOF anyway before he allegedly started doping. Alot will depend on the George Mitchell commission. If they can come up with reliable proff that he doped, then defnitely out, obvously. That proof will almost certainly not be in the form of a positive test, though, more likely tetimony from - hopfully - reliable sources (like the ex-girlfriend).

    In the end, baseball is paying and will be paying the price for its willful blindness for some time to come. So focused on a rebirht of love for the game, they sold their souls to the devil, from the comissioner right on down to the utility players. It has HR records that are meaningless.
  18. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    It's tough for McGuire because he's the first of a few "steroid cheaters" that are eligible for the Hall of Fame. As I was listening to Mike & Mike yesterday I heard how some writers have said that they will vote him in only because during the steroid era "everyone" was doing it. They are fearful that if they don't vote Mark in then the Hall of Fame voting turns into not a comparison of numbers, but a comparison of body type. You know what I say to that? What a load of crap.

    "Everyone" didn't initially break the single season home run record. "Everyone" was not subpoenaed before Congress and asked to give testimony. "Everyone" was not alleged - publicly - of doing steroids through a book and a former teammate. And "everyone" did not look as guilty as he did in front on Congress.

    I hate to pass judgement, I really do. In fact, I shouldn't because no one knows the whole thing. But this is my opinion.
  19. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I certainly agree, Obi. What about Bonds?
  20. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    I think he's under a lot of pressure. He's very brave despite all the criticism that is thrown at him. How can such an nice person be the subject of such turmoil? He's so genuine and pure.

    Okay, now seriously. :p

    He's worse then McGuire and the problem is that he's actually still playing. The only reason I see a team signing this time bomb is so that he can be wearing their jersey if he breaks the all-time home run record. He'll be used as an infamous publicity stunt.
  21. DarthIntegral Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    My Ballot:

    Harold Baines
    Albert Belle
    Dante Bichette
    Bert Blyleven
    Bobby Bonilla
    Scott Brosius
    Jay Buhner
    Ken Caminiti
    Jose Canseco
    Dave Concepcion
    Eric Davis
    Andre Dawson
    Tony Fernandez
    Steve Garvey
    Rich Gossage
    Tony Gwynn
    Orel Hershiser

    Tommy John
    Wally Joyner
    Don Mattingly
    Mark McGwire

    Jack Morris
    Dale Murphy
    Paul O'Neill
    Dave Parker
    Jim Rice
    Cal Ripken
    Bret Saberhagen
    Lee Smith
    Alan Trammell
    Devon White
    Bobby Witt
  22. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    Integral, how could you put Albert Belle in , but not Jim Rice or Andre Dawson? Orel Hershiser, like Mattingly, had a few brilliant years, but far too few. If you put in Orel, why not Brett Saberhagen?

    For me, the only clear cut choices this year are Ripken and Gwynn, who were also first class guys. Dawson adn Rice probably deserve to be in, they were both tremendous players, but its close.
  23. DarthIntegral Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    Why A-Belle?

    cuz I'm a homer! :D

    For a few mystical seasons, he dominated the landscape of sports. I vividly remember seeing fear in pitchers eyes when Belle came to bat. And that's why he gets the nod from me. I don't think he'll every actually get into the hall, but he'd still get my vote.

    As to Hershiser, he had brillian post season after brillian postseason, and that's why he gets my vote for the hall.
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