The Hater Community

Discussion in 'Literature' started by barnsthefatjedi, Mar 21, 2001.

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  1. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah, my colours have gone B/W too. I hate it. This better be temporary.
  2. Bodo-Baas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Please consider me a member of the Hater Community.

    There is a lot of stuff to love in the EU, but unfortunately there is even more stuff to hate. ESB is my favorite movie, I like the Luke-Vader-Emperor parts of ROJT, and I think ANH is OK. I don't like the rest of ROJT or most of TPM. That said, what I like in the EU is what follows the style of ESB and the dark parts of ROTJ.

    My favorite EU is the Dark Empire trilogy. I HATE the fact that most of the EU just ignores the INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT events in the DE trilogy.

    I also HATE the New Jedi Order. As you can tell, I prefer my Star Wars dark, but NJO isn't dark; it's more like cyberpunk meets Star Wars. It doesn't feel like Star Wars at all.
  3. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    It's so obvious when the author is doing "Mary Sueism."

    The Daley trilogy was written by a man. The HST was written by a woman. See the difference?

    The HST should have just been called "Bria's trilogy" because that's what it felt like it was all about. Han worshipping Bria, Han getting all lovey dovey and soft with Bria (proposing after a *month*?!), Han naming his ship after Bria (please, I can't even see him doing that with *Leia*), Han pining away for Bria for 10 years, Bria being an angel to the Rebellion, Han wishing every woman he met would turn into Bria, Bria nobly sacrificing her life to steal the Death Star plans, Bria dying and become a matyr in Han's eyes, Han thinking he's lost the love of his life when she dies - stop me, I need to vomit.

    It was like she was made into possibly the most important character she could ever be crammed into three books with all the restrictions and continuity Ann had to abide by.

    The whole story of her completely took away from Han's redemption in the films. Han was not some sappy, soft, doe-eyed guy who would pine away in hearbtreak for a girl for ten years before ANH. When Lucas planned out his character, I'm *sure* that's not what he had in mind for his backstory.

    Another thing that's funny is that she conviently forgot two continuity problems - one that the Death Star plans had been stolen by like 15 other pet EU characters at that time, and two, that in the novelization of ROTJ it said *Leia* was Han's first, and only love. Why the hell did she have to come up with this great love story if she read that?!

    Oh, and Callista - she passes every single Mary Sue test I've seen. She's beautiful, she makes Leia jealous, she's Force sensitive, she's knowledgable about everything, she's thought dead and everyone mourns her, she comes back and everyone loves her, she has a beautiful singing voice, blah blah blah...Yes, the body snatching thing was like murder. It's like buying a suicidal person a gun.

    And I agree Mara Jade is not a Mary Sue. Luke doesn't fall in love with her right away, she's rarely described as beautiful (although the fanboys run away with their fantasies in this department usually), it takes people years to trust her, and she's not all knowing, she's made mistakes and she's willig to acknowledge that.
  4. Perator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2000
    star 3
    I completely agree with sweetheart. Mara Jade is not a Mary Sue, and Bria should be killed (again). I really enjoyed the Hutt Gambit (Part 2 of the HST)but not the first and third (mostly) because of Bria and her control over HAn. Parts of them were cool, but not her. The big problem with her is how much Han loved her. Han started in ANH caring only about himself (and chewie) but he realizes tat there is more to life than just him. Having Bria before this makes him makes him have that change, and then go back to only caring for himself for the start of ANH. It just doesn't work.

    Perator

    PS. I'm a member of the HC now!

    PPS. Does anyone agree with me the Luke is becomgin a Gary Stu?!?! [face_devil]
  5. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Thank you Perator! That was my main problem with her - giving Han the "love of his life" before Leia was inane. Lucas named him Han *Solo*. He was a loner before Leia. Of course he had plenty of women, but Leia should have been the first women he opened himself up to and loved; it says just that in the ROTJ novelization. A big part of the movies was how Han learned to care and trust Luke and Leia, redeeming himself in the process. By saying "Oh, he was really a good-hearted, trusting, open man before ANH" completely cheapens his character development in the movies.

    If Lucas ever created a backstory for Han, I'm sure it would fall along the lines of Daleys' trilogy - a cynical mercenary who trusts no one and does no one favours, has cheap flings with women, and looks out for number one. Crispin made him too soft and nice.

    Again, I'll point out that the Adventures were written by a man, and the HST was written by a woman......and boy does the difference show!
  6. eclipse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 2
    Ben_Solo - What does this mean?

    "Eclipse, you cannot copy spoliers by the way."

    Finally someone who agrees with me about Kyp, the butcher of Carida.

    You are all wrong about Bria. Han was finished with her by the end of Rebel Dawn. Remember he said to her that the next time he saw her, he would shoot her on sight for making him look like a cheater to his smuggler friends. All he felt for her was pity, I think. Also, the way she treated him MADE him cynical about other women. How else to you think he got that way, ladies?
    Lastly, LFL allowed his story to be written with Bria in it, so get over it.
  7. Ysanne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 1
    Ok, so flame me, but I actually liked Crispin's Han books.
    Bria was not the only topic, and somehow I never got the impression of her being so perfect. Just another neurotic spoiled rich child joining the Rebs and shining bright for a very short time.
    That Han fell in love with her -- so what? Is it a crime to love the future ex-girlfriend? Calling the ship "Bria" is not _that_ stupid considering the way they were separated.
    I liked the fact that Bria died after betraying Han as this explains why he won't trust others.
  8. Ben_Solo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2001
    star 3
    welcome bodo-baas. eclipse, forget what i said, i thought it was something else, sorry.
  9. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Please don't tell me to "get over something" I have a right to express my opinion. LFL authorized the Crystal Star remember?

    So, he broke up with her...The whole idea of him being deeply in love with her and loving her for ten years in the first place is what bothers me.

    The other thing that aggravtes me is that Crispin said she killed Bria so that Han would be "free" to go to Leia. That just grates my nerves, and makes me think it's Crispin thinking that Han wouldn't have married Leia if *her* character hadn't died, so Han could get over it. His dumping her should have been enough. They should have gone their separate ways, end of story. There was no reason for her to die, unless Crispin believed death would be the only way to emotionally separate Han and Bria, which is disgusting IMO.
  10. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Ysanna, you are perfectly free to like the books but I am not here to debate with people who like them, I come here to talk to other people who share similar opinions to me, or as a place to vent without the fear of being persecuted by EU fans. I will not be debating with you about this, sorry.

    BTW, it was not a "crime" that Han fell for her, but Crispin had the love story completely wrong - it specifically says in the canon ROTJ novelization that Han had never fallen in love with anyone before Leia.
  11. eclipse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 2
    And Children of the Jedi, too. You're right,sweetheart, I shouldn't have said that. I apologize.

    But, I don't believe Han was in love with the "real" Bria, just his image of what he thought she was like. IMO she sent herself on that suicide mission BECAUSE she knew she could never have Han. He could never stay with someone who was such a fanatic. Someone earlier said Bria was a MarySue because she was so "perfect". Hardly. Even the Rebellion wouldn't have been able to stomach her after the Empire was defeated. She killed people in cold blood!! Remember that scene where her commanding officer asked her why no slavers surrendered and she said that they all "fought to the last"? He knew what she was doing but allowed her to continue because the Rebellion needed people so loyal that they'd do anything for it right then. It was probably one reason they asked Red Hand Squadron to be part of that mission.

    I believe Bria's death was necessary, (not to separate Han from her, he'd already made that decision) but so Han would take the final step of acting against the Empire. He had personally seen what the Empire did (or allowed to be done) to ordinary people. It turned Bria from an innocent young idealist into a hardened fanatic. Han, through his love of Leia and his admiration of her courage, AND HIS OWN FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE OF HOW EVIL THE EMPIRE IS, finally decides to take action despite all his own instincts of self-preservation and against all odds.

    I think the AC Crispin trilogy explains perfectly why Han became the person he did when he finally did meet the love of his life.
  12. Thanos6 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 1999
    star 4
    You're all missing the biggest Gary Stu of them all.

    Corran Horn.

    As I once called him in the legendary "Anti-Corran Horn" thread, he is SuperPilotJediWarrior. Able to do whatever the story requires of him. He's like a combination of Luke and Han and Lando and Wedge with just a touch of Thrawn.

    But "good character + good character + good character + good character + good character" does not always, or even usually, equal "good character."

    Certainly not here. Anytime Horn shows up, I want to push the arrogant prick into the Maw.
  13. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Wow! this 'Bria' person is really generating some controversy within the Community. Excellent! :D Unfortunately I have never read the HST and so I have no opinion of her. I can easily get my hands on it though, so I think I'll read it to see what all the fuss is about. There is some excellent discussion going on in here. Keep it up! :)

    Eclipse, you seem like a very deep thinker (well, most of you do, but esp. eclipse). Therefore, I promote you to Chief Philosopher of Hatred. Welcome to the Command!

    Welcome to all new members as well :)

    Emperor Barns
  14. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Bodo-Baas' membership has been temporarily withdrawn due to suspicous circumstances. I shall keep you informed.

    Emperor Barns
  15. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    *Vader voice* "Apology accepted, eclipse..."

    I don't think Bria was a Mary Sue because she was so perfect. I think she was one because I think Crispin self inserted herself as the character by making it so incredibly important to the HST and so important in Han's life. As I said before, had the HST been written by a man, it probably would have turned out very differently.

    Good interpretation of why Bria had to die, but Crispin said herself at theforce.et that she killed Bria to "free Han of emotional entangelemnts" so he could go to Leia. That's what annoys me most about her, and that has traits of Mary-Sueism (Han wouldn't have fallen for Leia if *her* character hadn't died.)

    As for the Empire, I don't think Bria should have had anything to do with him deciding the Empire was evil. I think it should have been Luke's youthful idealism that Han deep down admired, Alderaan, Han's grudging respect of the ambitious pilots of the Rebellion, Leia's interrogation (if he found out about it), and most of all, Leia's compassion for human life and her passion for the Rebellion. Bria did not need to have anything to do with him deciding the Empire was evil.

    Bria should have never existed, period in my book. Or if she had, she did not need to play such a huge, important role in the HST and in Han's life.

    Han's reaction to Leia and reluctance to open to her should have not been because he was heartbroken over some other girl. His reaction to her was probably because all his life, most of the women he met were probably other smuggler, tramps, prostitutes who fawned all over him. All of a sudden this girl comes along who can shoot for herself, think for herself, doesn't fall all over him, and has the gall to tell him what to do - That should definitely provoke a reaction. It shouldn't have anything to do with him going "I hate women and have vowed to swear off them for the rest of my life." or whatever he did after Bria. His reluctance to open up to her should have been because he had been a loner for so long and had never really let anyone in before, aside from Chewie.
  16. Tallie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    Corran Horn is cool! He does get a little arrogant at times, but he's funny. I'm sick of hearing about Han and Leia, they're in EVERYTHING! Personally I'm glad the NJO focuses more on Luke and Mara.

    Bria DID need to die, it helped the story line, besides I never liked her.
  17. Perator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2000
    star 3
    I disagree about Corran Horn. Yes, he's good at a lot of stuff, but I, Jedi (one of the BEST books IMO) showed his faults and really looked into his mind. He was NOT a Gary Stu in that book.

    However, in the X-Wing books he is a type of Gary Stu, with a few minor faults that become *big* things in the books to make him look imperfect.

    Regardless, not *EVERY* Gary Stu / Mary Sue is bad. Some, like Corran, can still be interesting, and can have character depth.

    IMO Tycho is a Gary Stu, because while he is accused of beign a traitor, he is a perfect pilot, a calm thinker, good looking (mentioned in *every* novel w/ him in it) and is cleared of all his crimes.

    NOW, onto the important topic of the day: BRIA. A Mary Sue, and the worst love Han could have. I enjoyed the HST very much, but I hated Bria, because of her love w/ Han. His other girlfriends (Xaverri, Salla) were fine, becuase it was a more physical, not emotional relationship. Salla Zend especially, because when she wanted marraige, he ran away in fear of becomign too emotionally attached.

    [face_devil] Perator [face_devil]
  18. ImperialGirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2001
    star 3
    I've added to the fic...again. I think you'll notice a pattern.

    This is something I hate about the EU--certain fans who insist that Thrawn is alive, no matter the evidence to the contrary. How much deader does he have to get to convince people? Hey, I like the guy too, but let him rest in peace!
  19. ImperialGirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2001
    star 3
    Question: In what way is Tycho a traitor? He started out as an Imp, defected, got his mind twisted by Isard (if you know anything about torture of prisoners, that's not pleasant and very hard to resist without dying) and came back. I don't recall him selling out the Rogues at any point in the books--he is under suspicion a great deal, it seems to have affected his career, but he still works for the NR.

    Yeah, he's a tad on the perfect side at times...but it is something of a selling point for me. (One of the reasons I love SoA.)
  20. Tallie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 2
    I agree, Corran is an interesting character and I,Jedi rocked! But I don't think he seemed that perfect in the X-wing books, I mean in the early ones, Rouge Squadron, he was pretty cocky but Wedge put him in his place and he is a great piolet after all. Personally I hate the way he was pushed out of the NJO books, I like to read about him.

    Tycho has some kind of endearing quality. He IS a little on the perfect side but so far he hasn't been that annoying. I like the deal between him and Winter, interesting.
  21. Perator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2000
    star 3
    Tycho was THOUGHT to be a traitor after Isard's torture of him. Actually, double-agent would be a better term...

    Perator
  22. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Tallie I definately like your mindset. Corran Horn is a great character. Lifelike if you like me. I really can't see anybody act like Luke always does. But I can see somebody acting like Corran.

    If anything Wedge is the Gary Stu, not Tycho.
  23. KansasNavy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2001
    star 4
    Added to the Fic. PM on any thoughts.

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2285895&replies=14
  24. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    I hate that the stars will be gone tomorrow, :(.
  25. Darth_Shadious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    What I hate is that we haven't had a real strong Sith since Palpy. Even the dark Jedi have been relatively week. We Sith still need heroes.

    -dS
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