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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion The Heroine of the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by Darth Eddie, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Serious question... is there a female human character in the OT, besides Leia and Mon Mothma and Beru? (the last two having hardly any lines)

    And are there any female characters in the PT that speaks more than 2 lines, besides Padme and Queen Jamilla (and even Jamilla is only in 1 scene)?


    I really hope we have a female protagonist. But I also hope even more than we have more female main characters, that it's about half and half, like it should be.
     
  2. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    I'm thinking about it..... and the answer is no. There was that female X-Wing pilot (Kasan Moore?) who was deleted from RotJ for whatever misguided reason, as well as Granny A-Wing who was deleted for not-so-misguided reasons. Now that you point this out, it kind of turns my stomach over to consider how poor the gender diversity in the films really is. The Clone Wars had PLENTY of female characters, which is a good sign for the future.

    I want to touch back on the skimpy outfit point briefly; obviously the idea itself is prone to harsh criticism toward objectifying sexualization. If we look at the Leia's gold bikini, Padme's torn catsuit, and Ahsoka's slave disguise, we notice A) these costumes get less and less physically revealing and B) some of these character's most action-heroic moments occur while in these outfits. There's an argument to be made for strength through sexualization, the idea which skimpy cosplay most frequently aims to portray.

    Ultimately I don't think it's mens' job to determine where the line between strength and objectification is. I don't hear many of us criticizing Anakin's shirtless scenes.
     
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  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You mean his two shirtless scenes? Neither of which were sexual at all, in fact, quite the opposite--in the first he was dreaming about his mother, and in the second, dreaming that his heavily pregnant wife, who was sleeping next to him, was dying?

    And since no one deserves to be objectified, I'd say it's everyone's job to determine the line between strength and objectification. Why should men get a pass on this?
     
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  4. Fleab88

    Fleab88 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2012
    I'm just saying that kind of content doesn't interest me as an adult male. "If" that is the kind of female lead we get them I do not one at all personally.
     
  5. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Funnily enough, when I first saw ROTS, Anakin's shirtless scene got quite the loud "mmmmm" from some of the ladies. Enough so that it caused everyone to start laughing. :)
     
  6. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I imagine that was awkward...but at the same time if ROTJ was on-screen today, Leia would be getting all kinds of whistles and catcalls in the slave scenes, so...
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Not following--as an adult male, you are not interested in seeing a scantily clad heroine, or you want either a scantily clad heroine or no heroine at all?

    I was one of them but the point remains. Since Anakin only appeared shirtless for a minute or less total, obviously no one is going to make the argument that "the main male character must be shirtless for sex appeal," which is an argument made in this thread about a female lead. That is objectification. Admiring an attractive person is not, in and of itself.
     
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  8. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Totally agree.
     
  9. Buddha Fett

    Buddha Fett Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 1999
    Exactly the argument that should be addressed. In the GFFA, women are shown as both powerful and in control of their sexual identities. Sure, they have to be put in small clothes and imprisoned quite a bit, but men are getting slighted at every turn. While they wield power enough to destroy planets, they are forced into cults where they are forbidden to relate with women, and the ones that aren't...when faced with a chance to proclaim their undying love for a woman, they can only mutter "I know", and be frozen in carbonite for a few years as punishment. It's so not fair.
     
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  10. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    Weeeeeeell Anakin is kinda sexualized by virtue of being a beefcake, as much as any Star Wars character can by considered attractive anyway. Maybe that's a symptom of a greater problem of "ugly" people never getting starring roles... But I didn't create this thread to talk about shirtless Anakin.

    All I know is that when I think of the idea of a female lead to a Star Wars trilogy, I'm thrilled, I can't wait to see it, it's something we've never seen before, there's a billion new interesting things that can be done with it. And when I think we might just get another male lead, I think, okay, that's cool.
     
  11. Corvax855

    Corvax855 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    To the OP, having a female hero in this type of story isn't new and progressive; just look at all the fairy tales and myths out there with a girl as the lead character which have been around since storytelling has been around. At this point, I'd say it's very likely that the main protagonist will be a young woman. We've already seen the hero's journey from the point of view of a male figure twice, so it makes sense to finally see it from the point of view of a female figure.

    I typed up a long analysis in the "Who's the Baddie" thread about how stories with female heroes and male heroes differ. The main aspects it changes is the central conflict and the properties of the villain. Generally speaking (ignoring two vastly different archetypes), the villain in these types of stories is always the same sex as the hero. If the hero of the ST is a girl, chances are the villain will be female as well.

    The SW universe is filled with more masculine symbolism than female symbolism, so it would be interesting to see how the conflict between two females would play out. For example, the lightsaber (and swords in general) are a masculine symbol of power. In fact, if you want to get Freudian, you could actually say they are phallic symbol. Therefore, two female characters duking it out with masculine symbols of power will have to be handled in a different way in order for it to work. As I said in that other thread, male conflicts usually involve power and dominance, whereas female conflicts usually involve jealousy and vanity. The lightsaber duels that we've seen in SW thus far are almost like a dominance ritual for men in which they agree to take each other on mano y mano.

    Taking that into account, the lightsaber duels between the heroine and the villainess would have to be quite different. I see them being a lot more hateful and backstabbing, to be sure. For example, I see the female villain leaping out of the shadows a lot more to kill the heroine outright in sudden, vicious, hit-and-run-style attacks, rather than facing off in a head-on assualt. The duels such as Ahsoka/Luminara vs Ventress, and Ahsoka vs Barriss Offee in TCW were actually spot on, especially the way Luminara insulted Ventress.

    Duels are just one example of how the story would be affected by having a female hero. If you really wanted to make the ST unique and stand out from the previous episodes, that's the way to do it IMO.
     
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  12. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Not to be rude or something, but I think you overanalyse. I don't think a battle between female hero and villain would have to be about vanity and jealousy at all. A lot of conflicts between women are actually about control and power.

    The lightsaber is also not more of a phallic symbol than a sword is. Blade cuts everything and pointy = well suited for killing
     
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  13. Corvax855

    Corvax855 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    No doubt, the wider conflict will probably still be about power, but I think the way the confrontation unfolds would be different from the way Luke and Vader confronted each other, for example. I just don't see two woman fighting each with lightsabers in that same way, where one is almost like a tank that slowly rolls over the opponent (like Vader did).
     
  14. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    Let's be clear about what 'this type of story' is. As much as Star Wars is rightfully compared to fairy tales, it conclusively is not a fairy tale, but an epic myth. Heroines of fairy tales are frequently distressed damsels or passive participants. The great female characters of mythology and literature were nearly always godesses or demi-godesses to some degree, with mortal women frequently being portrayed subservient or ancillary. There's a big difference between Red Riding Hood, Pallas Athena, and -- okay, I'm blanking for an example of a modern female epic protagonist, which is a symptom of a dreadful inequality. But a few years from now, a Skywalker Daughter may very well become that example. -at least that is my hope.

    The lightsaber is ONLY a masculine symbol if you get freudian with it.

    I can tell that you and I share a similar analytical style, and you make a lot of cogent points, however I do not agree that "jealousy and vanity" must implicitly play out between female adversaries in Star Wars. To your TCW examples in particular, I don't feel like gender was much of a defining issue in those events - in fact, I feel those episodes ought to be commended for portraying women as competent warriors without even batting an excessive eyelash.

    For me, it has less to do with simply whether or not the protagonist will be a woman or not, and nothing to do with the traditional applications of 'men are this way, women are that way'.

    For me, it's all about what kind of person Darth Vader's granddaughter may be.
     
  15. Fleab88

    Fleab88 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2012
    I'm a grown married man. I have zero interest seeing a young (likely teen) scantily clad heroine. If that's what is required to have a female protagonist then I don't want one. If they can avoid that then I guess I can get on board, though I would admittedly prefer a male protagonist. As Abrams has yet to show he can pull off a quality female protagonist yet. Again, this is all just my personal preference.
     
  16. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Then how about we give our two new young male leads all sexy shirtless scenes just for the sake of making my tumblr girls and I happy. Since we talk soo much about female objectification, lets include some male to make it even :p
    *Note I am joking here*
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I thought he did pretty well with Sydney Bristow but she's the only one of his protagonists that I'm familiar with.
     
  18. fishtailsam

    fishtailsam Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2003
    Heroine is a hell of a drug.
     
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  19. Maizel

    Maizel Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2013
    [​IMG]

    I just, couldn't resist.
     
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  20. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    The drug is spelled without the silent e. Plus Carrie's a cocaine girl.

    ...I couldn't resist either.
     
  21. Buddha Fett

    Buddha Fett Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 1999
    Nailed it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. fass

    fass Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2013
    This is what I want in a heroine in the new Star Wars movies:

    1)She has to have a quirky/spunky/sarcastic personality like Han Solo or McGregor's Obi-Wan.
    2)I want her to be as good as Luke was in ROTJ with a lightsaber. Meaning - she shouldn't be a padawan.
    3)I wouldn't mind Anakin's daredevil attitude.
    4)She must have good chemistry with the other cast (I don't mean as a love interest. I mean the rapport that Luke,Leia,Han,Chewie had).
    5)Costume - nothing skimpy like the gold bikini (this is by far the skimpiest outfit in the entire saga. You can see Leia's a$$ whenever she's running around for Pete's sake! ). The costume has to be practical - I'm thinking something like a jumpsuit to match Luke's outfit in ROTJ. If the actress is voluptuous and uhh..'fills out the suit', then I'd have no problem with that.:p But, NO NUDITY! Star Wars is not the franchise for something like that. Also, no stripping, mild sex scenes, etc! I love Abrams but I hope he doesn't feel like he has to 'sex-up' Star Wars.:mad: I swear, one of the taglines in the 2009 Star Trek's TV Spots was 'This is not your father's Star Trek' ! And please no innuendo!!

    [​IMG]


    An outfit like that is practical but also looks sexy AND lethal at the same time while not being skimpy/sleazy.

    The actors and actresses chosen should feel like they 'belong' in the Star Wars universe. I don't want the new cast to resemble something like the cast in a CW show like Vampire Diaries or something.
    I'm excited but also afraid of the fact that Lucas isn't behind these movies.


    I don't want someone like this :




    Or a scene like this :



    Something like that would drive Star Wars into the ground.
     
  23. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    That is not skimpy or sleazy? That's practically a sex-shop purchased leather S&M corset with an Imperial logo stuck on it.
     
  24. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2012
    I wouldn't mind the female heroine fighting like this *Not talking about lightsaber*.

    That is one bad ass chick. Now in terms of her lightsaber ability...IDK...I havn't seen many female sword fights so I'll just leave that up to the fight choreographer
     
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  25. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2013
    That would look completely out of place in a Star Wars movie. Not to mention, that stuff looks flat out lame. No weight to her punches, it looks overly cheoreographed. If you want to see what a good female stunts can look like watch Gina Carano in "Haywire." That was well done. Still. that would look out of place in a Star Wars movie.

    You don't want any hero to be overly badass. Luke certainly wasn't in the OT. You want to create a line between character agency and vulnerability. If you over do one or the other you get no suspense.