Saga The Hidden Genius Behind the Prophecy of "The Chosen One"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by ewoksimon, Feb 10, 2012.

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  1. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Umm. The Galactic Empire and Palpatine was obviously evil. I never said it wasn't evil. Please understand that.

    Are you saying that the civil war (not american civil war with abe lincoln-but the galactic civil war in star wars, rebel alliance vs empire), was a just war, because of Alderaan?

    What's done was done. Think of any nation. Every nation, or many at least, did terrible atrocities in the past. Does that justify starting a war over it? Many quadrillions of galactic citizens.

    The rebels were fighting the Sith even before they destroyed Alderaan.

    The Jedi had a plan to hunt down and wipe out the Sith, just to bring balance to the force. The prophecy of the Chosen One was made even before the Sith built the death star.

    Please respond to this. Mace windu had no idea about saving alderaan when he went to go arrest Palpatine and stop the opression of the Sith from returning. The Sith and Jedi were enemies, long before the Death Star. It wasnt just the death star.
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How was the galaxy in tyranny? Palpatine overthrew the Republic. Many nations came to power through unjust means. What's done is done. Palpatine was an enlightened despot.

    Umm. A lot of people died in the galactic civil war. Thousands, millions, billions, something like that. That is a high cost.

    How would the rise and fall of the Empire affect the average Joe of quadrillions of galactic citizens? Please make a list of evil things the Empire did.

    Mace Windu went to stop the Sith from taking over the galaxy, and he had no idea about the death star. There was more to it than just the death star.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 5, 2012
  3. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    I'm not Malcom X, but I do believe in the greater good, and sometimes killing some people in a war is the only way to ensure this.
    I'm glad that you've finally figured out that the Death Star is not the entire reason why the Sith are not good! Let's look at it this way - even before Hitler had killed thousands of gay people, people want him dead, because we know he's just going to do bad stuff. The Sith also have a bad track record.
  4. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
  5. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I don't understand your Malcolm X reference. I agree on one thing though. Sometimes war is nessecary. If the Allies hadn't defeated Hitler in World War 2, more millions of innocent people would have died. The Allies saved tens of millions of innocent people. Despite all the casualties for soldiers during the war, lives of innocents were saved.

    We agree that the death star is not the entire reason the Sith are evil. It is a big part of it, especially and mainly in the Original trilogy, as Palpatine is ruler, it was the main reason he was evil. If the Empire never had the death star, why would the rebels rebel? When the rebel alliance went to war with the Empire, were they thinking of/did they know about the death star?

    What other evil things did the Sith do? How does that explain Mace windu knowing that the emperor was going to be an evil dictator and person? What did Mace windu know about the death star? "The opression of the sith will never return". What did Padme know? Lord Vader asked Padme to join him and rule the galaxy as Emperor and Empress, did she know about the death star? What did she know about Sith dictatorship? Did she know? How did the Sith have a bad track record? What bad things were on their track record? Other than the death star, what else did Sidious do as emperor?

    Why did Luke refuse to join Vader and rule the galaxy? Vader admitted himself he didn't like the death star. If he had more power he wouldnt use it. So, without the death star, why is the empire evil, and Luke and padme don't join

    Also, a question/comment about the death star. The empire only destroyed Alderaan, and despayre. They had no plans of using it on a large scale. Am I wrong?
  6. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    About the Death Star: the Empire planned on using it on anyone who opposed them enough that they just had to get rid of them. So, yes, totally prepared to use it on a large scale. If the Empire's only ambition was to destroy Alderaan, they would not have built a second one.
    America keeps a huge, well-trained army. America is prepared to use it.
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The Rebels wanted to overthrow the Empire because the Emperor came to power through unjust means-starting the clone wars so he could get elected and get a loyal clone army of the government to do his will and bidding. In my opinion, if you look at history, many nations came to power through unjust means, and by doing evil things. But, what's done is done, we can't change the past. No one is starting wars because of that.

    Did the rebels go to war with the empire before or after they knew about the death star?

    Also, when Mace went to go arrest Palps, he knew the Sith wanted to take over the galaxy, like they did a millenia before TPM. Darth maul wanted revenge on the Jedi, for defeating the sith empire ruling the galaxy a millenia ago, in dictatorship and opression, implied by "the opression of the sith will never return". That was long before the genosians had the plans for the death star. The death star didn't exist back then. It was far more than the death star, that made the empire evil. The Sith were dictators even in the events before the prequels? What did they do exactly? Palpatine and Vader probably did what they did, what the 1000 yr before Sith empire did.

    What was the Sith code exactly? Was the Sith a political order?

    So, the reason we didn't see the Empire blowing up dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of planets is because the rebels defeated them before they could do much? If the rebels didn't defeat them, would that have happened?

    Well, Alderaan and despayre were destroyed, during Tarkin's reign. After Tarkin died, they built a 2nd death star. They had plans to use it. If the rebels never defeated them, they would have. Am I right?

    Was Yoda training Luke as a guru/monk/priest figure, teaching a student religious ways, or, was he hiding on Dagobah to train Luke to fight the Empire, for political reasons? Anyway, why did he hide on Dagobah? Why not some other planet? Did he live there? Where did he live before he went into hiding?
  8. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    The rebels would have gone to war with the Empire anyway. People tend to go to war when they are pissed off and oppressed. America went to war with England, and England was actually pretty nice to America!
    The Sith Code can be found via search engine.
    The Sith often use politics to further their aims, but they are a "religious" order. Same with the Vatican - belief before government.
    Everything the Sith and Jedi did were for their beliefs first. Political stuff is extra.
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What was Yoda's goal/point/purpose/meaning in training Luke?
    If the Sith didnt have political goals, would the Jedi still try to wipe them out?
    You just said the rebel war was an unjust war above. You didn't respond to my ideas.
  10. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Many serial killers don't have political motivations. Yet we still want them behind bards.
    Yoda trained Luke so the Jedi could go on.
    I never ever ever said the Rebellion was unjust. I said it was very justified.
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How did Yoda know Luke had force potential? What do you mean he trained him so the Jedi could go on? I thought it was to defeat the empire. Was Luke's training kinda like someone going to India to learn hinduism and become a guru, and learn from a guru? Or a christian/catholic going to a monestary to live with monks and learn how to be a monk? A spiritual quest? Or a political one, to defeat the Empire?

    One thing I find confusing about the prequels is this-who are the sith? What do they want? Why would the Jedi want them behind bars if they're just living in everyday life? How does their religion, the darkside, in and of itself, harm anyone, if they're not being dictators and are just living everyday lives?

    Why did Yoda hide on dagobah?

    You said the rebels were unjust becuase you said that they would have went to war with the empire even if the empire had no death star. You implied it, I meant.
  12. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Luke had force potential because he's the son of Anakin freakin' Skywalker. The Jedi Order was decimated and Yoda was dying, but Luke could have become a Jedi and kept the organization going. Defeating the Empire means defeating the Sith, which ran the Empire. The India thing comparison is correct (although the Star Wars situation is much more desperate than Elizabeth Gilbert's in Eat Pray Love). The monk thing also works. Political is not the main motivation, it just happens to be involved.
    Sith want power, to dominate everything, and to be God, basically. They are not living in everyday life. They are tyrants and murderers. And they don't do democracy. I like democracy, I hope you do too. To live in everyday life is so not in line with the power and glory the Sith strive for.
    Yoda hid on Dagoba because he just did. Also, I think the dark side nexus there masked his prescence in the Force, or somthing.
    I did not imply anything about Rebels being unjust. Hitler had not Death Star and I don't like him. I would not the the dictatorship of the Galactic Empire even if they had no Death Star.
    kainee likes this.
  13. The Reformer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Politics had a lot to play in the role of the sith and jedi. You're right about the sith wanting power, but one way they did that back in episode 3 was by getting the power of the senate and then putting everything in place. Yoda hid on Dagoba because the sith has taken over the senate and wiped out the jedi order. He was one of the last jedi alive in the galaxy, and hiding from the sith on that planet was to keep himself safe and to help continue to tran Obi-Wan. In doing that Obi-Wan could look after and keep Luke safe.
  14. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Well, the Jedi were celibate, meaning they couldn't get married and have kids, and Anakin violated the Jedi code and got involved in a romeo and juliet-esque relationship with Padme. Almost all the other Jedi didnt do that. So, there was not a lot of evidence to tell if all children of Jedi are born with force potential. Is it genetic? Did luke and leia get force powers from Anakin because of their genes? Anakin's mother didn't have force potential. Is it like harry potter or x men, a gene for a certain power (s) or ability?

    I like democracy. The reason I like democracy is simple.

    Look at what happened in Cambodia or Joseph Stalin's regimes, how horrible it was what happened, and if you have democracy there's no chance of evil people like Hitler or Saddamm doing twisted and evil deeds like that. Why do the servants of dictators agree to serve them though? Why are people so stupid as to follow them?

    Yoda was not dying. What do u mean by that? Yoda died in ROTJ, and he got old and sick when Luke returned. He was not dying in Episode 3. He died later on. He didn't have cancer or anything like that.

    So, Yoda's goal was what? I don't get it. To create a New Jedi Order? Or to defeat the galactic empire? Here's an interesting thought. Was Obi wan planning on taking Luke to Dagobah? Its only chance luke found the droids. Leia wanted to send them to obi wan. If luke never found them, would obi wan take luke on a spaceship to meet his Jedi friend Yoda?

    Defeating the empire means defeating the sith who ran the empire? Does the Sith code mention anything about taking over the galaxy and getting political power; you said they want to dominate everything and be God, and are tyrants. You just implied that the Sith are a political order.

    So, the Sith create the imbalance in the Force. So, the imbalance in the force and the need for the Chosen One (Vader) is a political thing? What?

    How come if a person who follows the Sith code uses the darkside, it creates an imbalance in the Force, but, if another darksider like a dark Jedi or a lone hermit who uses the darkside uses the darkside, it doesn't create an imbalance? Is it the way the Sith use the Force? Why is the darkside bad, in and of itself? Is it black magic?

    Where are you getting that the darkside masked Yoda's prescene in the force, making it easier for him to hide? If Yoda decided to hide and not oppose the empire, would the Emperor still hunt him down? Does Palpatine/Vader hate light-side users and persecute them? If the Force is a sentinent entity, does that mean that the darkside is a sentinent entity too, kinda like the Devil, an evil being? Light side=God. Darkside of force=Devil? Maybe. I don't think so, however. I thought the darkside of the Force was an unnatural state. The Light Side IS The Force. The darkside is a perversion of the Force, someone using the Force to chanell negative emotions like anger or hate or fear. Maybe I read that on some fan website, which is innacurate.

    The darkside on the Force couldnt have hid Yoda there. How? Be more specific. Also, it seems impossible. No darksider was hiding on Dagobah using the darkside. Therefore the darkside didnt exist there, since no one was using the Force with anger or hate there.

    Hitler was evil. The Allied powers defeated him. That saved millions of innocent lives.

    Without the Death Star, what would the Galactic Empire do that is so brutal? Even with the death star, they built it to use against the rebels. Tarkin said that fear will keep the star systems in line. In that scene in ANH, with anakin, tarkin, and the imperial soldiers and officers, they were discussing the rebels and how to defeat them, which was the Death Star. The rebels were the reason the empire used the death star. Besides, did the rebels save innocent lives from the death star? Well, the Empire built a 2nd death star in ROTJ and didn't use it. The empire had no plans to use the death star, and definitley not on a large scale. Who would they have used it on? What planets? ROTJ or ESB never mentioned imperial plans to use the death star on so and so planets.
  15. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    For the last time, the Death Star was not built as a defense against the Rebels.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No.

    Contradicted by Yoda. The dark side exists regardless of how anyone is using the Force.
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Well, if not the rebels, who would he use it again? The movies are focused on the main plot points, the war with rebels on hoth, Anakin making a trap to capture rebels on Bespin with the whole lando-anakin deal, the rebels planning to destroy the 2 death stars, they don't focus on the details as to what each side is planning to do in the long run. They never said what planets the Empire planned too use the death star on. Tarkin Doctrine. The death star was not used for force, ie, to destroy planets on a large galactic scale, but rather, a symbol of fear. It was only used twice. Not a just war.

    I dont know. Maybe im wrong. I dont remember Vader telling the emperor "we will destroy x amount of planets for y reason", in ESB AND ROTJ.
  18. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Well, I correct myself. I got that info off of scifiabout, which had fans writing on it. Fans may be uninformed. They're not george lucas, they are fans.

    Is the Force a sentinent entity?

    Where/when did Yoda say the darkside exists regardless of how anyone uses the Force, or even if there are any force users?
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What I meant was that Yoda tells us the dark side exists there. Why that place is strong in the dark side is an old question. EU theorized it was the lingering effect of a battle with a darksider. Some have argued it is that way because of the way someone used the Force in the past. Also we see what looks like part of the ruins of a structure at one point.
  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah. The darkside was tangible. It exists their on its own. The Chosen One isn't supposed to destroy the entire darkside, like some lame fanfic said anakin did.

    Is the darkside a sentinent entity?
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Sometimes authors seem to treat it that way to some extent. Palpatine thought of it as having a will. It was said to have whispered to Anakin and implied to have provided his Sith name.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 6, 2012
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Why did they build a 2nd death star? If they destroyed the rebels in A New Hope, or suppose the rebels never existed in the 1st place, would they still build the giant Death Star we saw in ROTJ? How many planets did they plan to use it against?

    There is nothing evil with them using the Death Star against the Rebels, because the rebels are armed enemies in wartime....
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Wow. That sounds cool. Are you saying the darkside gave Anakin the name Vader? It was a sentinent being, like the Devil? How could an energy field created by cells create a sentinent spiritual entity? Does the existence of the force predate life in the galaxy/universe?

    I am happy and shocked, in a good way. Where did you get the info that the Palpatine thought the darkside had a will and whispered to anakin and gave palpatine the name darth vader?

    I always thought that Palps makes up names for his sith apprentices. Kinda like how people are given code names, or knighting.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Different books, so none of this comes from the films. Palpatine refers to the dark side as having a will in Darth Plagueis; the dark side is said to have whispered to Anakin in Dark Lord; in the ROTS novel, when Palpatine is pausing before saying Anakin's Sith name, the novel refers to "a questioning in the Force" and "an answer dark as the gap between galaxies".
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I know none of that comes from the films. I'm not trying to argue about canon....

    I never bought Darth Plageius. Please post a quote here about the darkside having a will..... And the quote from Dark Lord about the darkside whispering to anakin and palpatine pausing.....

    What does the answer as dark as the gap between galaxies mean?
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