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Amph The History of Middle Earth Chronologically: Disc. Of Maeglin

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue1-and-a-half, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Of the Coming of Men Into the West
    FA 304 ? FA 425

    *This chapter, Of the Coming of Men Into the West begins at around FA 304 and goes through FA 425. The beginning of the chapter tells us that actually, so the timeline is right here. It says explicitly that it's been 300 years since the Noldor returned to Middle Earth and that we're well into the 200 year Long Peace.

    *So, it's Finrod who discovers men and in a perfect echo, just as the Valar discovered the Elves, Finrod runs across them accidentally while hunting.

    *Finrod, taking a break from hewing caves, hears singing and sees firelight on a hunting trip. He spies on the men, hears their songs and during the night, enters the camp and sings to them.

    *These are the first men to cross the mountains from the East where they have been living and enter the realms of the Elves. Their leader is Beor, so named because he becomes a servant to Finrod.

    *There's an interesting bit here where the Men admit that they don't really know their history. But apparently, Men, sometime in their early days had some dealings with Morgoth, dealings that they do not want to remember. Now, because of those dealings, Men also dwell under a curse much like the Curse of Mandos on the Elves.

    *A tree? An apple? Original sin? I wonder.

    *A lot of the names here have connections to Biblical names, but I wasn't taking time to mention them, but this one I think bears mention.

    *Balan is the leader of this group of Men, but when he becomes Finrod's servant he takes the name Beor.

    *Of course one of the most fascinating stories in the Pentateuch is of the prophet Balaam, son of Beor. Tolkien placing those two names Balan and Beor so closely in this story, when they are equally close in the Bible, seems a bit of an Easter Egg for the Biblical scholar.

    *Also, reread the story of Balaam; it's a tragic tale. The talking donkey is what everyone remembers, but there's more to it than that, believe me. It's the story of a man who sells his principles.

    *All is well for a while between Elves and Men, but Thingol wants to keep Men out of his kingdom. Melian prophecies that one day a man will come that will breach her magic fence and bring doom on them all.

    *I keep calling it a magic fence because I ******* refuse to call it The Girdle of Melian. I ******* refuse.

    *Morgoth sows lies and whispers to try to turn Men and Elves against each other but when he can't he finally moves again and attacks a group of Men known as the Haladin and slaughters most of them, but the Elves under Caranthir come to their aid.

    *Some of the Men leave the country, but others make allegiances with the Elves against Morgoth.

    *A lot of familiar names pop up in this chapter. We get a Boromir, though he's obviously not the one from LotR, being a mortal man. And Hurin and his son Turin both get brief introductions here. As we move out of the Quenta in a couple of chapters, we'll be picking up a book dedicated to these folk, The Children of Hurin. And then looking at the original texts both in the Quenta and the Unfinished Tales. We'll be spending a lot of time with Turin in a bit.

    *There's a great bit that tells of Beor's death and of the moment when the Elves realize that Men die:

    *"But at last Beor the Old died, when he had lived three and ninety years, for four and forty of which he had served King Felagund. And when he lay dead, of no wound or grief, but stricken by age, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they know not in themselves; and they grieved greatly for the loss of their friends. But Beor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace; and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it, and its end was hidden from them."

    *And Chapter Seventeen closes, oddly, on an upnote, as the Men and Elves grow ever closer and friendlier, forming a stronger and stronger united front against Morgoth.

    *Movie #4: The Silmarillion:
  2. Zaz

    Zaz Jedi Knight star 9

    Oct 11, 1998
    I don't remember any of this, and yes, I *have* read the books.
  3. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 31, 2005
    I remember it, but vaguely. If 1.5 wasn't giving such detailed recaps, I'd be clueless. The Maeglin chapter really could be shortened and be at the start of the downfall of Gondolin Chapter.
  4. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 10, 2005
    I disagree - the Maeglin chapter is the seed for the downfall of Gondolin, and it works well with Maeglin being present at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and hearing Huor's prophecy to Turgon.

    *sigh* If there's anything I'd have wanter Tolkien to expand upon it would be the Fall of Gondolin and the escape of Tuor and Idrial. The brief outline we have sounds as epic as anything else in the Tolkien Mythos.
  5. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
    FA 455 ? FA 462

    *So, this is chapter eighteen of the Quenta Silmarillion.

    *This chapter is titled Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin. I hope nothing bad happens in it.

    *Timeline indicates a date of FA 455 - FA 462 for this one. Hmm, and the chapter explicitly states this one: "It being then four hundred years and five and fifty since the coming of Fingolfin."

    *So, the Long Peace is shattered suddenly in the night and the Fourth Great Battle of Middle Earth begins, Dagor Bragollach, Battle of Sudden Flame.

    *So, Glaurung the Dragon, now more fully grown issues out of Angband, leading a pack of angry Balrogs. They send fire all over the place and then the Orcs come. The Siege of Angband is broken, the Elves and Men guarding all the passes and such are scattered, towns are raided and destroyed.

    *Finrod hastens down to get completely surrounded and nearly murdered, but Barahir, a brave man leads an army of men in and saves Finrod from the Orcs.

    *From this time forth, Tolkien writes, fighting never truly ceased in Beleriand. The Battle of the Sudden Flame sort of technically ends in the spring, when the attacks of Morgoth slack off just a bit.

    *"Hithlum remained unconquered, a threat upon the flank of Morgoth's attack."

    *Right, cause with all that rain what could a dragon do? Or a Balrog? They'd be like, "I'm a Balrog" and then they'd be like sssssssssssssss as the rain put them out. And then they'd just sort of turn and walk sadly away in the rain and all the other Balrogs would laugh when the one who wasn't burning anymore got back and they'd be like, "You must have gone to Hithlum" and he'd be like "Shut up" and they'd be like, "How's the weather in Hithlum these days" and he'd be like "I SAID shut up" and then they would but they'd still kind of snicker and call him Hithlum behind his back and then he'd be like, "So, anybody got a light?"

    *I say Hithlum, you say . . .

    *That's better.

    *So, anyway, Morgoth's troops are just destroying Noldor all over the place, so Fingolfin gets a crazy idea.

    *He goes to Angband, blows his little horn and challenges Morgoth to single combat! OH WOW OH GOD OH WOW MORGOTH'S GOING TO HAVE A FIGHT NOW OH GOD OH WOW THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!

    *Just listen to this prose:

    *"Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid all the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orome himself was come; for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded the horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came."

    *I literally had to put the book down and just hyperventilate for a couple of minutes when I finished that paragraph.

    *So, they fight and it's predictably awesome. In the end, though, Morgoth gets Fingolfin down and puts his foot on his neck and raises his great hammer. Fingolfin stabs Morgoth in the foot one last time and then Morgoth puts him the hell away with that hammer of his.

    *Thorondor the Eagles comes flying down and he claws Morgoth in the face and then grabs Fingolfin's body and carries it away to be buried.

    *"Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thronodor made."

    *Okay, that was totally awesome.

    *So, anyway, meanwhile, there's this other group, led by Barahir, father of Beren (you know, & Luthien?). These guys, who are men, are being harried like crazy by Morgoth's army, so finally, all the wives just up and leave in a pack, taking all the children with them. The men keep fighting; eventually there are just twelve
    Sarge likes this.
  6. Merlin_Ambrosius69

    Merlin_Ambrosius69 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 4, 2008
    This thread is awesome, in case I've forgotten to mention it.

    I find it delightful that you can quote Tolkien verbatim with breathless admiration, alongside passages such as:

    [blockquote]*Right, cause with all that rain what could a dragon do? Or a Balrog? They'd be like, "I'm a Balrog" and then they'd be like sssssssssssssss as the rain put them out. And then they'd just sort of turn and walk sadly away in the rain and all the other Balrogs would laugh when the one who wasn't burning anymore got back and they'd be like, "You must have gone to Hithlum" and he'd be like "Shut up" and they'd be like, "How's the weather in Hithlum these days" and he'd be like "I SAID shut up" and then they would but they'd still kind of snicker and call him Hithlum behind his back and then he'd be like, "So, anybody got a light?"[/blockquote]

    [face_laugh] =D= :cool:

    Meanwhile, regarding werewolves, they were "dreadful spirits imprisoned inside wolf-bodies; the two greatest of the breed were Draugluin and Carcharoth" (Foster, p. 538). Apparently these were not the same as the Wargs which Orcs rode in the Hobbit and LOTR.
  7. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Well, the fact that Tolkien's style is not my chosen one does not mean that I cannot recognize it as absolutely stunning. :p I can be pompous as much as the next guy and poetic too, but occasionally, I like to just be totally silly. My little embrace of the Hithlum = rain running gag is an example of the latter. :)

    Drauglain appears in the next chapter of the Silmarillion. But, okay, not Wargs. Gotcha.
  8. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    God, I wish we could actually get movies made of The Silmarillion. I would give anything to see this stuff brought properly to the big screen. The only shame is that it would lose Tolkien's amazing prose.
  9. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    I'm about ready to start reading on the Third Age and I think, if memory serves, I broke The Silmarillion into 13 movies and the Second Age into 5. The SA movies would be slower, more brooding, but I think they could be great. I'd love to see this fantasy series I've created actually get made. Particularly some coming up.
  10. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Of Beren and Luthien
    FA 462-468

    *This nineteenth chapter of the Quenta Sil follows immediately upon the last chapter.

    *This one actually shows us in more detail about how Barahir's men are killed. In essence, it's Sauron who does it. Beren escapes because he's been sent away to spy on the enemy.

    *There's mention here of the Lay of Leithian, which is apparently a long poem detailing the story of Beren & Luthien. It's much longer than this section of the book, according to the author.

    *So, anyway, Beren, fleeing desperately ahead of Sauron's forces, stumbles into Doriath and there spies, in the woods, Luthien, the most beautiful being that has ever been created.

    *Or, you know, maybe second after this girl I used to work with. I don't know. It's probably a dead heat.

    *The two fall in love, of course, but this other guy that loves Luthien (as everyone in this story does; again, like this girl I used to work with) catches them in the woods, mooning over each other . . .

    *I initially typed 'mooning at each other,' and then realized that meant something altogether different.

    *Anyway, Thingol, Luthien's father finds out about it and is rather incensed because, you know, he's Thingol and he gets incensed a lot. At least Galadriel didn't have anything to do with it this time. Big mouth Elves cause a lot of problems in this story.

    *Beren does his whole "I'm going to prove my worth lay some quest on me big daddy" thing and Thingol challenges him to go and steal back one of the Silmarils from Morgoth's crown.

    *At last! Feanor dies and everyone just decides screw the Silmarils, let's start gardening or something. And this is the whole reason they came to Middle Earth. And for about four hundred years, they've all just been sitting around.

    *Thingol, of course, is intending to scare Beren off or else make sure he dies. There's no way he expects him to actually take him up on it; and even if he does, he'll surely be killed in the effort.

    *Beren gets off a great burn line: "For little price do Elven-kings sell their daughters: for gems, and things made by craft." Ouch, dude, just ouch.

    *So, Beren goes to visit Finrod; now remember, in the Battle of Sudden Flame at the start of last chapter, Barahir, Beren's father, saved Finrod and all of his men in battle. Thus, Beren asks Finrod to repay him by accompanying him on his quest to recover a Silmaril. Finrod agrees and takes along a few others for good measure.

    *Remember, long time ago, when Galadriel asked Finrod why he had never married and he had that flash that he would one day have to swear a dreadful oath and then fulfill it. This would be that. He's been hanging without a wife for about 300 years now. But the day has finally come.

    *However, Celegorm and Curufin are visiting Finrod and they hear of the quest. These are, I think, sons of Feanor. Frankly, they're pissed; they swore the oath beside their father that they would never rest until they'd recovered the Silmarils and they don't want Beren to go and just give one to Thingol. Thingol, remember, wasn't even among the Elves that went to Valinor. So why should he get one?

    *Of course, the fact that they've already broken their oath by basically laying around eating grapes and smoking pot for four hundred years isn't their problem.

    *Thus, the seeds are sown for a great sundering of the Elves; Finrod and his people against the sons of Feanor and their people; the sons of Feanor and their people against Thingol and his people.

    *So, Finrod, Beren and the other ten Elves that came with them kill a company of Orcs and steal their armor. Nice foreshadowing to Sam and Frodo doing the same thing.

    *They're caught by Sauron, however, when they try to pass his watchtower and all taken captive.

    *There follows a quotation from the Lay of Leithian, the first poetry section we've hit. We'll be getting a lot more of this kind of stuff, as I'm sure you all know.

    *Long story short, Finrod and Sauron have a sing-off, basically competing in magic spells, until fin
  11. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    Tolkien's ability to capture emotion is just astounding. Just these little glimpses of characters manage to be so incredibly moving; he's tapping into something absolutely fundamental here. Amazing art. Just the little things -- you mention the Nirnaeth Arnoediad -- a battle simply known as the Unnumbered Tears. What a name. God.
  12. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 10, 2005
    In the tradition of events in the Third age having a bigger and better corresponding moment in the First Age, the moment Beren sees Luthian matches up to Bilbo finding the ring in the Hobbit - a moment of chance that changes the course of history.
  13. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
    FA 473

    *This twentieth chapter of the Quenta takes place in FA 473, approximately five years after Beren & Luthien returned from the houses of the dead and took up residence on their little island.

    *This chapter opens with a brief wrap up to B&L?s story, noting that they returned briefly to Doriath, bid farewell to Thingol and Melian and then disappeared from history. Where they lived out the rest of their days, how they eventually died and where they are buried, no one knows.

    *Also, B&L really sounds like a railroad, doesn?t it?

    *So, anyway, the Fifth Battle of Middle Earth is precipitated when Maedhros ?perceives that Morgoth was not unassailable.? Based on that whole, two people walking right in there and stealing a Silmaril right off the top of his head.

    *But all the bad blood stirred up during B&L?s adventure causes Maedhros trouble from the get go. Finrod?s brother, Orodreth, is ruling Finrod?s people in the caves and he won?t come out to fight because of the treachery of Celegorm and Curufin, who have formed an alliance with Maedhros.

    *Maedhros sends to claim the Silmaril Beren stole from Thingol, but Thingol, being, as usual, incensed, refuses to either assist in the efforts of Maedhros or to surrender the Silmaril he has. Celegorm and Curufin vow to destroy Thingol and his people if they return victorious from their war with Morgoth.

    *But Maedhros assembles a force of Elves, Dwarves and Men and heads to Morgoth to take back the Silmarils stolen so long ago by Morgoth.

    *Surprisingly, they are joined by Turgon?s forces; Turgon has at last come down from the hidden city of Gondolin to join the fray.

    *When the forces of Turgon meet the forces of Maedhros, we get our first Elvish.

    *Utulie?n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari, utulie?n aure! ?The day has come! Behold, Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!? Auta i lome! ?The night is passing!?

    *Morgoth sends a group of his Orcs to take Gelmir, a prisoner that they had previously captured and go to meet the oncoming horde. They meet the horde and then cut Gelmir?s hands off, then his feet, then his head.

    *This is not the traditional way that one opens treaty meetings, but then Morgoth has always been a little unpredictable.

    *This so incenses Gelmir?s people that they charge and battle is joined; Morgoth sends forth the rest of his troops and the Fifth Great Battle, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Unnumbered Tears, begins.

    *Due to the fact that the battle was joined in the heat of the moment, Unnumbered Tears is actually two battles, an Eastern one and a Western one, since the group led by Maedhros was actually split into two parts.

    *Some of the Swarthy Men, the Easterlings, that had made allegiance with Maedhros, switch sides during the battle and strike at the Elves from the rear.

    *The most valiant fighters in the Eastern battle are the Dwarves, who stand firm in a circle around the last of the Elves and the hosts of Morgoth are not able to overcome them.

    *There?s a first mention of the Wolfriders here which I?m sure we all recall from The Two Towers and that crazy thing Aragorn did with deciding to be a Wolfrider just long enough to go over every cliff in the immediate vicinity.

    *Glaurung the dragon, soon to be a major player in The Children of Hurin, reappears and is grievously wounded by Azaghal, one of the Dwarf kings.

    *Fingon also dies, slain by Gothmog, the Balrog King. Wonderful death scene.

    *?Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.?

    *It?s that beating him into the dust with their mac
  14. PhilippLahm16

    PhilippLahm16 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 8, 2006
    Absolutely loving this thread, 1.5.

    One problem with the movies, though -- almost every one has a total bummer of an ending. Do a DVD marathon of all of them and you'll end up wanting to off yourself just a few DVDs in.
  15. Sauntaero

    Sauntaero Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 9, 2003
    This thread is EPIC!

    I might go see if I can get Children of Hurin in time for the next installment, I haven't read it yet.
  16. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    The Children of Hurin ? J.R.R. Tolkien
    FA 473 - FA 501

    *The Children of Hurin was published in 2007, rather late in the game of Middle Earth books. There are lengthy notes in the book talking about its composition; they are, in fact, so lengthy and convoluted that I really couldn?t follow them very well at all.

    *Essentially, the story of Turin, son of Hurin, was first released in The Silmarillion way back when; it was, like all the stories in the Silmarillion, a sort of thumbnail sketch. Then later, in The Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien published a longer and yet incomplete late draft of the expanded story that Tolkien had been working on for years, off and on.

    *This book came about when Christopher Tolkien decided that the story of Turin is one of the most significant in the history of the Elder Days and that it deserved a fuller treatment. So, he took the Silmarillion version, the Unfinished Tales version, and a ton of rough drafts (that I think are at least partially included in the 12 volume History of Middle Earth) and essentially put them all together to create a text that would tell the entire long story of Turin in only J.R.R.?s words.

    *After we read this book, we?ll go back and hit the versions published in the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales too and possibly make a few notes about changes in the texts and all that.

    *While this timeline tends to ignore rough drafts, ie. Most of the stuff in the History of Middle Earth, since it?s mostly published unedited, it does include some stories that are not included elsewhere. In this instance however, this timeline has chosen to include both the ?final? version of this story, The Children of Hurin, and the two rough draft versions, presumably because The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales are sort of seen as being integrated and official texts, whereas all the rough drafts in History of Middle Earth are mostly non-integrated and have never been considered official.

    *And with that, I?m afraid our time is up.

    *Actually, one more thing. I sort of envision this thread as being sort of a thread reviewing these things and talking about them for those of you that have read them and are familiar enough with them to enjoy my idiosyncratic take on these stories. However, I also view this thread as sort of being a summarizing of these stories for those who may have always sort of thought they?d like to read all these old stories, but just never motivated themselves to do so. So, I think this should be pretty clear from the reviews I?ve done thus far on the Quenta, but since this is it?s own standalone novel and actually a really, really good one, I just want to warn you that I will be spoiling this novel completely in this review and summarizing the entire plot, all the way to the end. So, if you really think you want to read this book, be warned. And you really should definitely read this one; it?s brilliant.

    *So, according to this timeline, The Children of Hurin takes place from FA 473 to FA 501.

    *The book, it should be noted, is illustrated very beautifully by Alan Lee, who anyone familiar with the LotR DVD extra features will know very well.

    *The first image in the book is a full color image of Hurin and Huor flying into Gondolin on the backs of two eagles. It?s probably the second best picture in the book.

    *And Chapter I, The Childhood of Turin, starts with that story; we?ve already covered that whole story in the Quenta Silmarillion, but it?s retold here, mostly as it was told there.

    *It then moves into new material by talking about Hurin and his wife, Morwen, and their two children, Turin and his sister, Urwen.

    *Morgoth?s chemical warfare, smoke and fire and such, comes to Dor-Lomin where Hurin and his family live, and both Turin, at the age of five, and his three year old sister Urwen fall grievously ill. Turin recovers, but Urwen dies.

    *A great bit where Hurin takes up his harp to sing a lament, but so stricken with grief is he that he cannot even express it in music.

    *Turin mak
  17. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 10, 2005
  18. MasterEric

    MasterEric Jedi Knight star 1

    Dec 3, 2007
    I have to applaud your efforts Rogue.=D= It has been an absolute pleasure reading through this thread. Regarding your latest entry; I recall when reading the Silmarillion it was the story of Turin that really stayed with me. Specifically that climax, Jesus is right. When a story can elicit the cold sweat on my brow in anticipation, or anxious dread, it is truly great. Suffice it to say Tolkien succeeded with this. Looking forward to the next entry.
  19. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Narn I Hin Hurin, The Childhood of Turin ? Of Mim the Dwarf
    FA 476 ? FA 493

    *Okay, so we covered the pertinent details of the life and death of Turin, but we jump back now to a previously published version of the story. The author of this timeline mostly eschews rough drafts and revisions, which is a good thing or we?d be plowing through The History of Middle Earth until doomsday.

    *However, my understanding is that he counts the original versions of the Children of Hurin as official because they were officially published in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

    *Regardless, we?re going to look at the first section of the Narn that?s contained in the Unfinished Tales. The section of the story I?m going to look at in this post covers the years from FA 476 ? FA 493

    *So, the point of the Unfinished Tales was to publish in their unfinished form tales that had not been told elsewhere. Ergo, this version of the story doesn?t contain Hurin and Huor?s visit to Gondolin or the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, since those had both been told in their most complete version in the Silmarillion, published a few years before.

    *There?s a bit here when Hurin is getting ready to ride off to Unnumbered Tears, however, where he lifts Turin up on his shoulders. I don?t recall that from The Children of Hurin.

    *This version even skips Hurin?s capture; we go from Hurin riding off to battle to a single paragraph noting that the story of Unnumbered Tears has been sung elsewhere and then to Morgoth?s questioning of Hurin about the location of Gondolin.

    *Okay, there?s an extra scene here, just a paragraph or two, that explains how the dragon-helm used by Turin gets to Thingol.

    *After Turin arrives in Doriath, Thingol waits until Morwen has had time to have Nienor and then he sends spies back to find her and accompany her to Doriath, but when they get there, she?s still unwilling to go since Nienor is still so young. But she sends the dragon helm back with them to give to Thingol to give to Turin when he?s old enough.

    *There?s a nice bit where Turin has been waiting for the spies to return with his mother and so he?s waiting and watching for them. When he sees them at last returning alone, he is stricken to the heart.

    *And then there?s a few paragraphs about the history of the dragon helm that I don?t think was in The Children of Hurin either. So, there?s an extra couple of pages here.

    *There are a few things that are a bit different in this version that are mostly editorial decisions.

    *For instance, whereas in The Children of Hurin, the Of Mim the Dwarf chapter started with a description of the history of the Petty-Dwarves were, here the Of Mim the Dwarf chapter starts with Turin and his outlaws capturing Mim and then, later in the chapter, Mim tells Turin about the history of the Petty-Dwarves.

    *So, that kind of reordering of things.

    *Mim gets off a great line that I don?t recall from The Children of Hurin. ?You are one of the fools that spring would not mourn if you perished in winter.?

    *So, this section of the Narn ends with Turin and his outlaws established in Mim?s dwelling.

    *Essentially, the bulk of the text of the Children of Hurin came from this version of the story. However, the story does rather, I think, need the inclusion of things like the Unnumbered Tears and such to really make it freestanding as The Children of Hurin was intended to be.

    *So, interesting to read this work in progress. But the need for this has been entirely nullified by the excellent complete story of The Children of Hurin. Good work, Chris!

    *Next time, we?ll look at the first half of the chapter in the Silmarillion dedicated to Turin. Be here for that.
  20. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 4, 1999
    This thread title very ungainly is.

    But the contents are interesting.
  21. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Of Turin Turambar, pp. 198-215
    FA 476 ? FA 493

    *Okay, so now, we cover the exact same period that we covered last time: FA 476 ? FA 493, only in the much quicker style of the Silmarillion. This is chapter 21 of the Quenta and is, of course, the very first telling of Turin?s story.

    *Okay, so this one starts with Turin?s birth, skips everything about Unnumbered Tears and Hurin (since much of it was told in the previous two chapters) and name checks the Narn I Hin Hurin as being a longer version of this story.

    *This version of the story contains the scene of Beleg choosing Anglachel; this, I think, the Narn didn?t have.

    *It should be mentioned that practically all the minor characters are dropped. One of the most interesting subplots of the outlaw section was the conflict between Androg and Mim. Androg doesn?t even appear here; one of his lines is given to an outlaw that isn?t identified by name.

    *In this version of the story, Mim doesn?t purposely sell Turin?s outlaws out; he?s captured by Orcs and forced to tell.

    *So, in this version, since there?s no conflict between Androg and Mim, there?s also much less conflict between Mim and Beleg. Essentially, Mim just dislikes Beleg because Turin likes Beleg better than Mim.

    *So, Mim doesn?t specifically ask for Beleg to be left behind; it just so happens that Beleg survives but is wounded. Mim is about to finish Beleg off when Beleg wakes up and drives Mim off by himself.

    *So, most of this section is taken up with some rather lengthy (for the Silmarillion) passages that were obviously taken and integrated into Children of Hurin.

    *Anyway, this section ends after the fall of Nargothrond; most everything that I haven?t mentioned here proceeds exactly as it did in Children of Hurin.

    *Next time, it?s back to Unfinished Tales to look at that version of the Narn again.
  22. Darth McClain

    Darth McClain Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 5, 2000
    I just started re-reading The Hobbit a few days ago, and I'm seriously considering The Silmarillion, once I finish the LOTR trilogy. I'm loving the summaries.
  23. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 4, 2002
    Those could be some awsome movies if done right but we will wait to see once the hobbit films do well.

    I would love to see sequels to lord of the rings like the new shadow trilogy that was supposed to happen. There are some unfinished tales set after lord of the rings too. Plus they already turned some of the history after lord of the rings into video games.

    Although we may only most likely see Prequel movies.
  24. black_saber

    black_saber Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 4, 2002
    It could and might Happen if the Hobbit films do well and make alot of money plus there is some unfishnesd tales from the fourth Age too that would make awsome movies. I am not the only one who is talking about the upcoming movies but right now we have to see how the Hobbit films do in order for that too happen.
  25. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 2, 2000
    Narn I Hin Hurin, Appendix ? The Death of Turin
    FA 496 - FA 501

    *Okay, back to the Unfinished Tales and they certainly earn their name. Essentially, Christopher Tolkien had no interest in reprinting anything. He wanted to print mainly new material, for obvious reasons.

    *But for the section of Turin?s story from his settling with Mim the Dwarf to his return to Dor-Lomin after the fall of Nargothrond, there is apparently no later or more expansive version than the one that already appeared in the Silmarillion.

    *In essence, all of those events (Turin?s capture, Beleg?s death, Turin?s journey to Nargothrond, the love triangle and eventual fall of Nargothrond, and Turin?s first confrontation with Glaurung) have been told in their fullest version in the Siilmarillion.

    *Christopher Tolkien includes in the Appendix to the Narn what few small passages he has managed to find, but since they are so sketchy he doesn?t try to connect them at all. It is then, these three documents that combine to form The Children of Hurin: The Silmarillion, the Narn I Hin Hurin and the Appendix texts.

    *In a summary of the events he?s skipping, Christopher Tolkien mentions an extra bit of tension between Mim and Beleg that was apparently never taken past the outline format by Tolkien. It involved, interestingly enough, Mim pretending to be sick so that Beleg would let him have some of his lembas bread. Beleg, however, saw through the ruse and refused.

    *Also, there?s an added passage, in Tolkien?s own prose, that was deleted from every version of the story. In this passage, Turin is wearing the dragon helm when he confronts Glaurung at Nargothrond and is protected from Glaurung?s hypnotic powers, until Glaurung taunts him into raising the visor.

    *Christopher Tolkien notes that this has been deleted because it?s difficult to figure how Turin would still have the dragon helm given that he would almost certainly have lost it during his capture by the Orcs. Christopher notes that his father might have eventually added to the outline information indicating how he got it back, but since he hadn?t when he died, Christopher chose to let the dragon helm leave the story after Turin?s defeat and capture at Mim?s stronghold.

    *The rest of the Narn is more or less exactly what we?ve read in The Children of Hurin. There are a few details changed, but nothing of any moment.

    *Christopher Tolkien has a load of footnotes relating to the geography of this tale and trying to make it all fit. I couldn?t care less.

    *Also, this story ends with the burial of Turin. It does not have the final scene of The Children of Hurin of Hurin and Morwen reuniting atop Turin?s grave. This scene obviously came from some other text, probably The Wanderings of Hurin or the Silmarillion.

    *Okay, next time, we?ll go crack the twelve volume History of Middle Earth, by looking in Vol. 11,The War of the Jewels and reading an unfinished tale from that volume called The Wanderings of Hurin. Show up for that.