Amph The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, The Desolation of Smaug, Battle of the Five Armies

Discussion in 'Community' started by -Courtney-, Nov 25, 2006.

  1. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    By and large, Tolkien readers and fans tend to consider the Dol Guldur material referenced in his TH and TLOTR to be "the actual story". You're entitled to disagree, of course, but the filmmakers -- hoping to compete in a global market with a very costly entertainment -- are wise to disregard the expectations of a minority group of purists. While most Tolkien fans rejoice to see the addition of dialogue to scenes merely summarized or referenced in the source texts, you criticize it as "padding". I see these scenes as essential to the foundations of the War of the Ring, and for that reason they merit dramatization -- with dialogue, score, pacing, and all the crafts of cinema applied. And yes, I feel the movie would be weaker without the Council sequence. I heartily welcome its inclusion.
  2. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

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    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Yeah, that Carl Sagan... what a stooge! :rolleyes:
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yeah, I was surprised by that, given the amount of complaints, especially by critics. I haven't heard that much whining since Luke wanted to go to Tosche Station.

    Damn.

    Not to mention The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 5, 2013
  4. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    i have no problem with him being skeptical. i think somewhere in the source material it even says that the council had to convince saruman to act, so that's fine. what i take issue with is the manner in which he is skeptical. saruman should have presented his arguments calmly, in a way and a voice so compelling that even great elves and wizards would have found themselves at least slightly swayed to his way of thinking. we learn from tolkien that saruman's voice is his greatest power. it's a point of great emphasis, but jackson never uses it. if you aren't going to properly use the character, then why use him at all? just say he's so skeptical of any danger that he refused to come.
    Last edited by tom, Jan 5, 2013
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  5. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    uh, if you saw it in 2d that would make sense, seeing as 2d showings are 24 fps.
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  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    You could see it coming a mile off, which dampened the effect.

    Agreed, and therein lies the problem.

    To film them, you have to reach an audience that hadn't already encountered the books. When I was in the 7th grade, The Hobbit was on the curriculum for English for me (this was 1992, so I have no idea how long that tradition continued in Australia) and that's where I got introduced to Tolkien. You graduate to LOTR and you re-read them and discover new things each time you read it. Fine.

    But the people who never had that journey (like the people only discovering A Song of Ice and Fire through the HBO series - bandwagon hoppin' illiterate swine!) need to be reached through different tactics. So whilst the Hobbit's a sensible place to start, you have to let the momentum of the epic story carry them. So you film LOTR first.

    But, as you note, the Hobbit is a less intense journey so by comparison, it feels less engaging and impressive (on a narrative front; the visuals were typically stunning).

    It seems we both had reservations; your were shattered and mine were confirmed.

    Erm, yes. What I said above.

    On FTR, I did enjoy it on a superficial level. But as I thought about it and talked about it afterwards, I was let down.
  7. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
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    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    I do agree that the 6-movie series will be less that the 3-movie trilogy (LOTR). I'm still of the mind that PJ could have snipped here and there, tightened the movie, and done this in two. I'll be happy to have the next two movies change my mind, but AUJ, much as I liked it, was not perfect.
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  8. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

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    star 7
    :oops:
  9. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

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    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    I see what you mean about the power of Saruman's voice; in LOTR Jackson doesn't emphasize it, with the exception of Aragorn's warning to the others in Fangorn, as he believes Saruman awaits them. Tolkien makes much of the White Wizard's persuasive talent at his reckoning at Isengard, but in ROTK:EE Jackson seems to shy away from the matter for some reason. Yet even there it's ambiguous at worst; there's nothing to contradict the idea that Saruman might be using his voice powers from his high perch. Perhaps Jackson & co. could simply find no satisfying cinematic way to show it, so they didn't focus on it. I like to imagine it's happening anyway when I watch the movie.

    In the case of the White Council, I question whether Saruman would employ this stated power on his fellows. I respect your imagination and your knowledge of Tolkien, and I like the scene you've conjured in which the listeners are swayed perhaps against their better judgment by the magically mellifluous tones of the White Wiz. But that's not the only way such an event might or must proceed. I tend to think that, in the company of super-powered wizards and the immortal leaders of the elves, Suraman would curtail the honeyed tongue and weave no spell, lest his peers in the Council grow suspicious of his motives. (We do know that at this time Saruman was already coveting the Ring, and looking for it. He wouldn't have wanted to tip his proverbial hand.)
    Last edited by Merlin_Ambrosius69, Jan 5, 2013
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  10. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    i will concede that sagan is/was likeable. he is the notable exception
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Hmm, remind me of another franchise it does...

    And in both the book and the film the relevant outcome is the same: Theoden is not persuaded.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 5, 2013
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  12. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    hmm, i always had the impression that saruman's voice wasn't a "spell" that he could turn on and off but rather a power that he pretty much constantly employs unless he is momentarily flustered or something. i could swear that this is basically what is said in the text, but it's possible that it's a matter of interpretation as you say, merlin.
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  13. Rew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2008
    star 4
    I like to think that Saruman was just jealous that he couldn't command a kickass army of sleigh-pulling bunnies. :p
  14. AAAAAH Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    maybe they were filming the scene and ian mackellens just got really bored and stopped listening to christopher lee take after take after take and peter jackson started freaking out and then his wife said hold on darling, maybe we can use this and then they came up with the baladrial interruption thing and a crisis was averted.
  15. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I found what I was after. HERE

    One of many to use:

    [IMG]

    And Bilbo:

    [IMG]

    Bilbo is 3 feet tall. The most helfpful thing here are coins facing me off to the right. Bilbo's face width to his height is just about 7.5. This makes his face 4.8 inches across. 3 coins fit across his face, so they are 1.6 inches in diameter.

    Smaug's eye is just about 12 coins across; 19.2 inches. It looks like Smaug's head is about 8 times longer than his eye. It is hard to see since there is more head behind his eye, but not all of it is visable. His head might be 12.8 feet long. I think that is a good average. Eyeballing the coins with a tape measure is not easy nor accurate but I am probably not to far off.

    The rest is just total guessing but I'll use a few examples.

    [IMG]

    Total length is just about 10.5 heads.

    [IMG]

    Difficult because of an extra long and submerged tail, but roughyl 14 times the head.

    A lot of other dragon art statues vary from 7 to 15 times the length of the head. I think I can take a nice average of 11 and call Smaug approx 143 feet long.

    [IMG]

    That is Vermithrax from Dragonslayer. She was scaled according to Cinefex to have a 90 foot wingspan which would make her head to tail just about, oh 70 feet. Wingspan on the "typical" dragon art generally exeeds the length. Smaug's wingspan might get up to 200 feet if roughly proportioned like Vermithrax.

    The largest beasts that walked the Earth were titanosaurs like the brachiosaur that sneezed on the girl in Jassic park. That creature was around 70 feet long and weight around 50 tons. Some titanosaurs could reach 100 tons. Scaling up a 5 ton 40 foot long t-rex to Smaug length would yield about 320 tons though I suspect any dragon tends to be lighter than their groundborn brethren by half. The next time you see an 18 wheeler note that they weigh at most 40 tons and are 70 to 75 feet long.

    The largest thing that ever flew on Earth were pterosaurs which had wingspans from 30 to 50 feet and weighed under 1,000 pounds.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by VadersLaMent, Jan 6, 2013
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  16. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Something I meant to add.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Those are pics of the bull dragon from Reign Of Fire. The art director or special effecst director said it was scaled to have a 320 foot wingspan which would be the biggest dragon in any film to my knowledge.

    [IMG]

    That is Nicol Bolas. And thanks to a human standing close enough in a Planewalker graphic novel I was able to estimate that he is right around aircraft carrier sized with something like a 1,000 foot length with similar wingspan.
  17. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Um, is this pirated? Legal? Spoilers end of the film:



    Last edited by VadersLaMent, Jan 6, 2013
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  18. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    i dont get why people are concerned about "spoilers" for this film

    my friend was all "dont tell me anything about it!" as soon as i mention i saw the hobbit and im like what how wha? she's read the book multiple times
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Jan 6, 2013
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The extra scenes. The White Council, Radaghast, Dol Goldur, etc
  20. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    as a fan of the book, i'm happy i was spoiled about that stuff. i would have been much more annoyed otherwise.
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  21. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    tbh I could have just left out the "spoilers" part. Here and there people people know the story just like Star Wars but they have not seen the actuality, the details of the film versus the book. You might know the book, have not seen the film, I threw the word 'spoiler' in there.
  22. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    fyi i wasnt complaining about you for once, you just reminded me of something my friends have said that i found silly
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I know spoilers for film 2 but I won't say them.
  24. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    And we know spoilers for film 3 but I won't say them either
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  25. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    I kept out of any visual spoilers outside trailers and video blogs, and that way I had some very pleasant surprises. If I could I would like to see Smaug for the first time in theater, but that would mean walking around eyes shut for the whole autumn. The teaser trailer for The Two Trailers showed Gandalf's return.

    On an unrelated note, I think my biggest =P~-face came (not that unsurprisingly) when I heard Saruman's voice, saw Gandalf getting nervous and turning so the camera could show us the white wizard. Just hearing his voice on theater equipment is enough.