Amph One Thread To Rule Them All: The Rings of Power + The Hobbit & Lord of the Rings Trilogies

Knows Azog died years and years before the story began, having been killed by Dain. And really shouldn't have been in these movies.

 

TTT was always my favorite one of the trilogy.

 

I don't know what exact quote you mean but with Arwen there was several discussions. Could you keep her as she is in the book, in other words a 30 second silent cameo in the first film and then have her show up as Aragorn's door prize in the third. They quickly decided that wouldn't really work and I agree. First time I read the book, I wondered who she was and why she suddenly married Aragorn. Having read Tolkien's other writing about her and Aragon, she works better.

So they decided that Arwen need a bigger role and needed to be seen more and be more active. Hence Arwen taking Glorfindel's place and seeing more of her in Rivendel. But once Aragorn leaves then what? The initial idea was that Elrond and Arwen would go to Lothlorien and from there Arwen would join the elves that were sent to Helm's Deep and rejoin Aragon and they would be together.
Then they decided that this didn't work either so they has her back at Rivendel but showed her at times and actually had her leave due to what Elrond told her. Then she comes back and get Elrond to act. Most of that worked well to me, apart from she suddenly being ill and tied to the Ring, unneeded and didn't make a whole lot of sense. In the book we don't see her and what she does is basically sewing a banner, not really griping cinema.

I disagree for many reasons, first I think the films work quite well, the first film is bogged down by poor pacing and takes a long while to get moving. Interestingly, the Tolkien purist like the start of AUJ best of all since it is so close to the book. The Hobbit book may not be that interested in events outside of Bilbo but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
Some people argue that the Hobbit is just a simple, silly children's book, no need for more than one film or any complexity. I don't think so, if the Hobbit was just a simple children's book, the story would end with Samug's death. Dragon dead, the dwarves have their home back, everyone is rich and Bilbo returns home, story over. But Tolkien doesn't end it there because actions have consequences and there is more at stake here than just one dragon. Also there are a fair amount of backstory scattered throughout the book and references to other events. Again why do that if you only are doing a simple, silly children's book? There are Epic qualities in the book but those might be overlooked due to the short length of the book and the tone it is written in. Talking animals, talking purse, lots of narration and all that. But there is a lot going on. And PJ didn't just use the Hobbit book, he also used the appendix from LotR which frames the events around Bilbo as having a lot more consequences than what Bilbo might have thought. The random bad guy, the Necromancer is actually Sauron, Bilbo's "funny" ring is actually the One Ring, etc. Could you make a film that just follows the book narrative and skips over those other bits? Sure, the animated film did that and while not terrible, I wouldn't say it was very good either.
PJ could have ignored the LotR films and just made a silly little movie. But I think that would have gotten him a lot of other complaints.

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And again I don't agree, PJ develops the characters a lot more than the book does and I for one found some of them far more engaging and memorable than their book counterparts. I like some of the added plot threads and I think some of them are resolved.
I also like that he lets events breathe a little and not just hurries along to the next one.
One film would be far too fast paced, unless you cut a lot of stuff out. The characters would be less developed and thus less interesting.

Lastly, an example that occurred to me, the TV series "Avatar, the last Airbender." and the movie "The last Airbender." The film tried to compress the first whole season into one film. Aside from the many other problems the film had, the film is filled with narration that just explains the plot and what is going on. As one critic put it, "It is chess piece storytelling, character goes here, character goes there, character says this, character does that." No room for character growth or development, just more explaining. The film doesn't show, it just tells. The TV series is episodic but has a sort of overarching story and the characters grow and evolve over the season. Not totally unlike the Hobbit book, you have episodic events and an overall story with a set end goal. I think that a Hobbit film could have fallen into that trap if it had been just one film. Loads and loads of exposition and explaining to move us forward. Two films might have been better or that they had started with three films in mind and not making this change late in the game.

In closing, I like these films and think they are good. Not great like the LotR films but they do some things better. They have a much better main protagonist in Bilbo and that is in part due to Martin Freeman being a better actor than Elijah Wood. But Bilbo is also given more interesting things to do.
I do think PJ would benefit if he exercised some restraint at times but he shouldn't loose all of his excesses.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Jackson did at least play heavily on the greed stuff and how it corrupts you. That is ultimately the moral of The Hobbit, all who are greedy & selfish will suffer. That aspect was obvious in the movies

 

NO! Lol you misinterpreted me, I do not consider ESB filler! I really like it I just feel like it beats around the bush too much compared to the other 5. It's #31 on my top 100 movies list, that's high praise from me!

And yes, Smaug was a fantastic villain for the second movie. I just thought the focus on Tauriel really distracted from the great job they did with the dragon. As for TTT, it's one of my 15 favorite movies of all time.

So really it's not the individual movies I have problems with, I just in general do not prefer the second act in a three-part story.

 

It got buried with Thorin but was this shown in the film?

 

I didn't think it was. For a moment I second guessed myself.

 

Yeah, you'd think showing Thorin being buried with the Arkenstone would be important, a conclusion of a major plot line, but guess the filmmakers didn't think that it was that important and wanted to focus on other scenes. Like that Laketown lackey running around in a corset.

It could be in the Extended Edition, but then that feels like a cheat, holding something that important back until the Extended cut. I didn't mind the Extended cut for a few extra scenes that adapt a few more things, but I thought the Arkenstone's resting place was more important than that. Though in the movie Thorin got Orcrist back, I think? At least he had it for the final battle.

 

Yea, Legolas threw it to Thorin

 

Yeah and what about the Elf-King's jewels he wanted. Guess he didn't want them anymore. And don't even get me started on Azog under the ice.

They definitely needed to leave Smaug in the second movie, he should have been killed then.

I liked the movie but Jesus, someone needs to edit these movies down to one 2.5 hour movie.

 

Azog is you're favourite

 

What were the deleted scenes in the DoS EE?

 

Thrain is with Gandalf in Dol Guldur

More Beorn

Etc.....

 

Balin and Ori are the ones that went to Moria

Balin's Tomb



Ori's Skeleton

 

And how Legolas just Matrixed those rocks.

 

Jackson confirmed it I believe

 

Merk, you're really looking at the wrong medium here. As much as has been changed from the books, there are still certain book events (both Hobbit and LOTR) that can be implied to have occurred in the films as long as nothing openly contradicts them.

From "Fellowship,":

'Welcome and well met!' said the dwarf, turning towards him. Then he actually rose from his seat and bowed. `Glóin at your service,' he said, and bowed still lower.

'Frodo Baggins at your service and your family's,' said Frodo correctly, rising in surprise and scattering his cushions. 'Am I right in guessing that you are the Glóin, one of the twelve companions of the great Thorin Oakenshield?'

`Quite right,' answered the dwarf, gathering up the cushions and courteously assisting Frodo back into his seat. 'And I do not ask, for I have already been told that you are the kinsman and adopted heir of our friend Bilbo the renowned. Allow me to congratulate you on your recovery.'

`Thank you very much,' said Frodo.

'You have had some very strange adventures, I hear,' said Glóin. 'I wonder greatly what brings four hobbits on so long a journey. Nothing like it has happened since Bilbo came with us. But perhaps I should not inquire too closely, since Elrond and Gandalf do not seem disposed to talk of this?'

'I think we will not speak of it, at least not yet,' said Frodo politely.

He guessed that even in Elrond's house the matter of the Ring was not one for casual talk; and in any case he wished to forget his troubles for a time. 'But I am equally curious,' he added, `to learn what brings so important a dwarf so far from the Lonely Mountain.'

Glóin looked at him. 'If you have not heard, I think we will not speak yet of that either. Master Elrond will summon us all ere long, I believe, and then we shall all hear many things. But there is much else that may be told.'

Throughout the rest of the meal they talked together, but Frodo listened more than he spoke; for the news of the Shire, apart from the Ring, seemed small and far-away and unimportant, while Glóin had much to tell of events in the northern regions of Wilderland. Frodo learned that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go.

'lndeed,' said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days. Nowhere are there any men so friendly to us as the Men of Dale. They are good folk, the Bardings. The grandson of Bard the Bowman rules them, Brand son of Bain son of Bard. He is a strong king, and his realm now reaches far south and east of Esgaroth.'

'And what of your own people?' asked Frodo.

`There is much to tell, good and bad,' said Glóin; 'yet it is mostly good: we have so far been fortunate, though we do not escape the shadow of these times. If you really wish to hear of us, I will tell you tidings gladly. But stop me when you are weary! Dwarves' tongues run on when speaking of their handiwork, they say.'

And with that Glóin embarked on a long account of the doings of the Dwarf-kingdom. He was delighted to have found so polite a listener; for Frodo showed no sign of weariness and made no attempt to change the subject, though actually he soon got rather lost among the strange names of people and places that he had never heard of before. He was interested, however, to hear that Dáin was still King under the Mountain, and was now old (having passed his two hundred and fiftieth year), venerable, and fabulously rich. Of the ten companions who had survived the Battle of Five Armies seven were still with him: Dwalin, Glóin, Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur. Bombur was now so fat that he could not move himself from his couch to his chair at table, and it took six young dwarves to lift him.

'And what has become of Balin and Ori and Óin?' asked Frodo.

A shadow passed over Glóin's face. `We do not know,' he answered. 'It is largely on account of Balin that I have come to ask the advice of those that dwell in Rivendell. But tonight let us speak of merrier things!'

Glóin began then to talk of the works of his people, telling Frodo about their great labours in Dale and under the Mountain. 'We have done well,' he said. `But in metalwork we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose. secrets are lost. We make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that were made before the dragon came. Only in mining and building have we surpassed the old days. You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and the fountains, and the pools! You should see the stone-paved roads of many colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain's sides! Then you would see that we have not been idle.'

.....

`It is now many years ago,' said Glóin, `that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret: it was said that we were hemmed in a narrow place, and that greater wealth and splendour would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers that are called in our own tongue Khazad-dûm; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return.'

Glóin sighed. `Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dûm for many lives of kings, save Thrór only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk, and they went away south.

"That was nigh on thirty years ago. For a while we had news and it seemed good: messages reported that Moria had been entered and a great work begun there. Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since.

"Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time."

'At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. "As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this," he said: "that you should find this thief," such was his word, "and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?"

'At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered, but Dáin said: "I say neither yea nor nay. I must consider this message and what it means under its fair cloak."

' "Consider well, but not too long," said he.

' "The time of my thought is my own to spend," answered Dáin.

' "For the present," said he, and rode into the darkness.

'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. Twice the messenger has returned, and has gone unanswered. The third and last time, so he says, is soon to come, before the ending of the year.

'And so I have been sent at last by Dáin to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings. Also we crave the advice of Elrond. For the Shadow grows and draws nearer. We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield. Already war is gathering on his eastern borders. If we make no answer, the Enemy may move Men of his rule to assail King Brand, and Dáin also.'

 

In theory a two hour movie could have covered most of the important events. The decades-old Rankin-Bass cartoon adaptation kept most of the important moments. But the more important thing is how the filmmakers choose to adapt the book, and that's where things go horribly wrong.

Its not simply changing the message, such as turning Bilbo into an action hero, but I question their taste and sense of quality. In a way it reminds me of the Legacy of the Force novels. The creators care, they're enthusiastic, I just think their ideas are awful.

I held back some criticism after the second film, as I hoped for a decent ending, but they botched even that. Instead of a montage of Dain being crowned, the humans, dwarves and elves making up, Thorin and the Arkenstone, instead we just got Bilbo sitting there while Gandalf smokes and that's it?! Well that and the horn blowing scene, no idea what that was about either.

I remember RotK being criticized for its many seeming ending points, I didn't even mind them skipping the Scouring of the Shire to focus on the ending with Frodo, but this ending was too rushed. They had the auction, but skipped almost everything else. I remember Bilbo saying farewell to the Company, but forget if Bilbo said farewell to the Mountain and the late Thorin. With how angsty this movie was, funny to think Bilbo will set out for his retirement there. I do remember them forcing in one more unnecessary LotR hint about the Ring. Only one book to adapt, and they instead get too wrapped up in their made-up stuff.

 

Made-up stuff? A lot of that "made-up stuff" came from the appendices

 

I'm pretty sure spending an hour on the Kili/Tauriel/Legolas love triangle was NOT in the appendices. Nor were Bard's kids at this point in time, Alfrid, or the giant crossbow. Which I'm glad they didn't use, but then what was the point of mentioning it in the second movie then?