1. MERRY "TALK LIKE A PIRATE" DAY! ARR!

Senate The Hypocritical Zoo

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by SuperWatto, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    But you still haven't stated why you think it's reprehensible.

    edit
    Darth Guy, indeed they are a good example. But that doesnt mean they should all be Free Willied and there's no benefit to having some in captivity.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jan 16, 2013
  2. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    I'd think that's self-evident, Shane, but apparantly - after four pages of discussion - it isn't.

    Would you like to be locked up for other people's entertainment?
    If not, then why is it okay to do that to an animal?

    Again though, if you don't care about animal welfare, then it's all good.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Define "locked up." It's an awfully imprecise term and one that makes it seem like you're going for a heart-tugging point more than anything else. Does this mean all zoos? Some zoos? How large does an enclosure have to be? Does an open air enclosure count?

    Moreover, what's the operative factor in creating reprehensibility? Would it be reprehensible if people did not pay to see them, but they were still locked up? What if they were locked up out of sight, out of mind?

    What's your actual point?

    Also P.S. total lol at the bit about personal attacks followed by "for those who don't bother to thoroughly question."

    No, but I wouldn't want to live in the ocean either.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Jan 16, 2013
  4. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

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    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    No, I sympathize with the feeling seeing animals locked up in tiny little pens like the ones you posted. But again, that seems relegated to cheap circuses. Even Barnum and Bailey won a recent lawsuit against animal activists who apparently exaggerated the abuse animals suffered under their auspices.

    So you cant just post a picture and say "see, dont you get it?". You have to touch the mind and the heart.


    edit: okay that last sentence sounded corny as heck but I'm leaving it.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jan 16, 2013
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  5. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

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    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    What about bugs? They don't feel stress or physical pain or fear or arguably suffer in any way. Why do think it's not an offense to maim or kill insects under law? The same reason it's not an offense to uproot plants, they don't have feelings.

    Plus I doubt the vast majority of them have enough awareness to know they even in a captive environment let alone to protest at their freedom being violated or used for "entertainment". Flea circuses are far more demeaning I'm sure, I've certainly never seen any zoo attempt to make a cockroach play the trombone and march in time.
  6. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Well, they don't have a tongue-in-cheek smiley on here.
    My actual point is no less than Biblical in its extent: do unto others as you would have them do to you. If you like animals, that includes animals.
    Now I'm not going to find yet another way of saying it, it's all laid out in the thread. The all zoos/some zoos, the size of the enclosure, the open air enclosure, all of it. I think you're smart enough to work out the locking up out of sight for yourself.
    I'm going to go to sleep the sleep of the just now; I do hope everyone will continue to call me out and call me names so that I have something to look forward to in the morning. I enjoy the debate. Goodnight!
  7. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

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    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    lol. Someone never watched Jurassic Park! The fleas aren't real!
  8. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

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    star 8
    Of course not, but the principle is the same. Would it be cruel to have a flea circus given they can't feel stress or pain or fear? That would be for public entertainment and not beneficial to the fleas, but does it bother them that they are doing it?

    Is it wrong to lock-up or walk around showing the public something that would never be upset or angry or stressed-out by the whole experience?
    Last edited by SithLordDarthRichie, Jan 16, 2013
  9. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

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    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    sorry I forgot one of these on that post! :p

    I was kidding SLDR. lol
  10. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

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    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    As was I, apologies if I take the subject too seriously it is a big issue for me.

    But my bug point still stands (most of it anyway :p )
    Last edited by SithLordDarthRichie, Jan 16, 2013
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    edit:
    I think we need a time limit for some topics. Like a countdown clock.

    "Okay...go!"
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jan 16, 2013
  12. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

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    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Meaning what? The lifespan of the human race isn't even a rounding error in the 3 billion or so years of life on earth. We're doing admirably well in killing off all life on earth, given the tiny amount of time we've had to do it.

    The course of this thread suggests to me that the reason people want zoos to assure them about how important zoos are to conservation is to help assuage our guilt about just how bad people are for the planet.
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  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    People are bad for the planet, but their creation of zoos is nowhere near the top of the list as to why.
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  14. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

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    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Right. Zoos are just one example of how we like to give ourselves the illusion of control over the fate of the world. See, there are all these threatened species, but we're zookeepers, and we're doing something about it! The reality is more that we're on a runaway semi careening down the highway, and most of the species of animals on earth are destined to be road kill. We're heading for that Planet of the Weeds scenario. At the end it will just be us, alone on the highway, with pigeons, rats and cockroaches riding in back.
    Last edited by Jabbadabbado, Jan 16, 2013
  15. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 19, 1999
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    @anakinfansince1983: The existence of zoos isn't the cause of our species' terribleness; it's a symptom of it.

    @SithLordDarthRichie: Your post makes me think of Peter Singer's stance on animal rights as a problem of equal consideration rather than equal rights per se. Other species exist on a spectrum of sentience and deserve a spectrum of consideration, not a binary.

    That said, gratuitously maiming or killing insects is clearly unethical regardless of governments' lack of attention to it. Law isn't synonymous with ethics.

    @Jabbadabbado: It always seems unfair to me how many humans hate pigeons, cockroaches, and rats/mice. We urbanize vast swaths of the planet, making those areas unlivable for most other species, and then begrudge the few who have the nerve to adapt and survive.
    Last edited by Dark Lady Mara, Jan 16, 2013
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  16. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

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    Mar 19, 1999
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    What I told my kids when they hit that stage as toddlers when they wanted to stomp on bugs was "If you kill it, you have to eat it."
    Last edited by Jabbadabbado, Jan 16, 2013
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  17. V-2 Force Ghost

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    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Some zoos do genuine good work and should remain open. Some zoos are cruel and should be shut down. /thread.
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  18. harpua Chosen One

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    Mar 12, 2005
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  19. V-2 Force Ghost

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    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Is that the rule now?

    I know it more as a kind of sarcastic flouncing full stop.
    Last edited by V-2, Jan 16, 2013
  20. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    I think a zoo would only be hypocritical if it promoted the ethical treatment of animals to get people in the door but didn't actually practice what it preached. Let's face it, a zoo is by definition a place where animals are held captive for display. So long as the zoo didn't try to promote itself as something other than what it is, then it is hard to see any hypocrisy. Zoo visitors would only be hypocritical if they professed a love for animals such that they didn't believe in any form of captivity yet visited a zoo nevertheless.

    I don't believe it is contradictory or hypocritical to profess a love for animals yet support them being held captive in a zoo for display for the benefit of humans. I don't necessarily agree that animals are always better off in nature, at least not in the form of 'nature' which exists in uch of the world in 2013.

    Obviously the nature of the captivity is crucial - if it amounts to cruelty, as defined by the various standards set by animal protection groups and legislation which regulates zoos and other places where aninals are held in captivity, then the captivity should cease.

    I am more concerned about those animals which are held in captivity specifically for food production, rather than display. I'm talking about chickens, cows, sheep, pigs etc etc. Some of the practices surrounding the transport and slaughter of sheep and cows in some parts of the world are just sickening (I'm looking at you Indonesia and Pakistan). Likewise, battery hens lead miserable lives.

    I would rather spend what time I have alloted on this world supporting causes to prevent cruelty to animals held in captivity for food production than embark upon a crusade to free all animals held captive around the world in zoos and animal parks. Clearly, where the zoo or animal park resembles Guatonomo Bay then something needs to be done.
  21. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
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    Pakistani cattle probably have a more normal life and death than those that exist on industrial farms in the US. I'm just saying.
  22. LostOnHoth Chosen One

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    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Last edited by LostOnHoth, Jan 16, 2013
  23. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    It's surprising that only two people, LostOnHoth and Jabbadabbado, dare to discuss the actual topic. But then both off them veer off into other directions; Jabba keeps going back to threatened species, and Hoth prefers to talk about animal abuse in food production. Both interesting topics, to say the least, but it's not this topic. Both are actually much larger topics with a biggger impact, which is why I chose to something comparatively 'light'.

    The consensus seems to be summed up by V-2 ("some zoos do good work, some don't"), and Hoth ("Obviously the nature of the captivity is crucial - if it amounts to cruelty, as defined by the various standards set by animal protection groups and legislation which regulates zoos and other places where aninals are held in captivity, then the captivity should cease"). But it seems like everyone is glossing over the fact that 10% of US zoos is AZA-accredited. 90% is at fault. That's not 'some', that's nearly all of them. Lacking worldwide data, I think we should assume it's similar across the globe.

    Why is this glossed over? Seems.... eh... hypocritical.
  24. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Does lack of accreditation equal cruelty though? A zoo may fail accreditation because of a number of trivial matters. Some zoos may not wish to be accredited because of the ongoing cost of maintaining accreditation, despite the fact that they may have first rate facilities. If there is evidence of actual cruelty then action needs to be taken but I wouldn't assume that a lack of accreditation is a sign that animals are being mistreated.
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  25. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    Actually, 59% of US zoos are accredited.
    http://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/

    List of zoos in the US (there are 375... 221 of them are accredited as of this month)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_zoos_in_the_United_States
    Last edited by harpuah, Jan 17, 2013
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