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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The I am Your Father Revelation in ESB

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Sammy52, Aug 24, 2004.

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  1. openmind

    openmind Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    The "shock" will be that Darth Vader has supposedly abandoned his identity as Anakin Skywalker, and yet is now telling Luke that he (ie. Anakin) is his father.

    Is there an echo in here? [face_devil] Kidding. I believe that is the "shock".

     
  2. Tokio_Drifter

    Tokio_Drifter Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2003
    SomeRandomNerd, that's a really interesting way of looking at it, Good stuff!
     
  3. ComeWhatMay

    ComeWhatMay Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2004
    I myself knew before I watched "Star Wars: the Phantom Menace" in the theatre that a kid Anakin Skywalker would become an evil guy named Darth Vader and that, in the original movies, his son Luke Skywalker would have to fight him. My long time obsessed Star Wars friend and my dad told me before I went into the theatre. And I heard from people here and there some things about the movies and in that way, I already knew almost the whole plot even before I saw the movies! (Luke and Leia, Vader becomes Anakin again...)

    I even knew Darth Vader would say to Luke: "No. I am your father". But still, when I finally saw the scene... it was amazing. It still came as a slight shock. It was just amazing. I know I would've been <i>really</i> shocked, hadn't I known the whole plot already but it's not the end of the world. The feeling when seeing that scene is still breathtaking.
     
  4. Rylis

    Rylis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2004
    It might come as a greater shock that they know Vader to be the father, but see him trying to kill his own son in the carbon freezing chamber. Well, maybe not trying to kill, but thats what will be inferred since Vader has not told of his plan to turn luke yet. We probably see it as Vader testing Luke, but newcomers could see it as a fight to the death.
     
  5. ShrunkenJedi

    ShrunkenJedi Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2003
    One thing about that--

    Remember, we see Vader 'torturing' Leia in ANH; this is a shock, but when it originally came out no one had any idea he was her father, and neither one of them knows their relationship in the movie. Those who know, though...

    To get to the point, it could be a bit of the same sort of situation in the ESB duel if you haven't seen it before but have seen the PT: You know Vader is looking for Luke, and that he's Luke's father, but I'm not sure we know that Vader is sure Luke is his son... until he says so.

    Comments?
     
  6. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    I won't say the dramatic value will be ruined as much as transformed into a different type. For people who saw the OT first, which is most of us, the power of the scene was that Vader was Luke's father and nobody saw it coming. For future generations that will watch the PT first, the significance of the moment will be watching all these ties coming together, seeing destiny unfolding as Vader is faced with a past he tried to get rid of.

    The drama will still be there. It will simply be different.
     
  7. Kettch_the_Jedi

    Kettch_the_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    I think it will be possible for future viewers who know nothing about the saga to be shocked, especially since in Ep III we see twins as the children of Vader but IV starts out with just a young boy (we learn that Vader is Luke's father before we "learn" about Leia--maybe that is why the Luke/Leia kiss is there, so that people who might have a clue would say, "Na! They can't be siblings: look at that kiss"). :)
     
  8. BombadGeneral

    BombadGeneral Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2004
    For those expecting the "surprise" to be kept in RotS (despite GL's statements to the contrary):

    Obi-Wan tells Luke in ANH that a pupil of his ("Darth Vader" by name) was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force.

    If RotS just shows Ani die, and some dude called Darth Vader show up, the very next movie is still gonna give away the secret! (Long before Vader's reveal in ESB.)

    So trying to keep it a mystery throughout RotS would be pointless.
     
  9. Ogmios22188

    Ogmios22188 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2004
    How would that give it away? If Vader just randomly shows up and we don't know he's Anakin, that won't give away that Luke is Vader's son and that Anakin and Vader are the same person. I really think that Luke and Leia should remain nameless throughout Revenge of the Sith, so there will be some element of surprise, revelation, or epiphany.
     
  10. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    I used to be a firm believer that Lucas would save the surprise. I thought it was necessary. Having watched all the films in rapid sequence after the OT DVDs were released, I now understand that the scene works just as well without this surprise. It functions differently, with the retro-active addition of the PT, than it did when it was initially released. What was once a shock scene is now a suspense scene. It actually works better now. New genereations will get more enjoyment out of the entire saga to make up for the lack of surprise in that one scene. Plus, they (and we) will probably get a surprise or two in ROTS...
     
  11. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    This is the sole reason why I believe that the movies, for newcomers, should be watched in 4-5-1-2-3-6 order. That way the 'I am your father' retains it's weight, the prequels are a flash back, and ROTJ is more dramatic than ever.
     
  12. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Ogmois22188-

    The fact that Obi-wan said that Darth Vader was his apprentice when the prequals have shown that Anakin was the only apprentice Obi-wan had would automatically give away Vader's identity to future audiences long before they get to ESB and plus, they will see Luke and Leia being sent to their future homes. When they see a teenage boy and girl in ANH, future audiences will automatically know it's them without knowing their names and besides, surprises are a 1-time deal and once its exposed, the shock value will be gone forever and none of us can retain it no matter how much we want to.
     
  13. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    You know Emos, it's quite funny to see you post that considering both Lucas and Pablo said that exact same thing several months ago yet you claimed it was a bad idea and that Lucas was going to change his mind.
     
  14. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    What's funny about having an idea, finding evidence to prove it wrong and then changing one's stance on the issue? Absolutely nothing. That is how a rational person operates.
     
  15. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Stay on topic
     
  16. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    This is harassment and off-topic, right after my warning. In Saga we follow the strict rule: attack the argument, NEVER the person. See you after a time out.
     
  17. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Thanks

    ---------------
    EDIT

    Spike,

    I see that my thanks were pre-emptive. Can I lodge a formal complaint? Check our histories, this is not an isolated incident. Repeated ad hominem attacks are par for the course. I believe this constitutes a TOS violation.

    I appreciate your assistance.
     
  18. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    How is pointing out what you've said on this topic in the past in violation of ToS?

    If it weren't true, that would be one thing. But I'm telling the absolute truth, and anyone who looks at your post history can judge that.

    In the past you said Lucas would keep the surprise. You were wrong. Now you say otherwise. Now you are right.

    My post is on topic. Lucas has said clearly that the surprise will be different when watching the saga in order. Pablo has said there will be a dramatic irnoy were the audience knows more than the hero.

    That was the point of this thread, right?
     
  19. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Peeler,

    I am not the topic. Nothing in yuor first post even remotely relates to the initial poster's question. Your behavior is pathological. This is not an isolated incident.

    Spike?
     
  20. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Again, ponting out what you've said on this subject in the past is hardly a crime. I fully realize you'd like it if mentioning any of your past predictions was a violation of ToS, but that is not the case.

    Vader's ID will not be a surprise. I mean, everyone on Earth nows it already anyway (Lord Zurg).
     
  21. Darth_Sammy52

    Darth_Sammy52 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Yikes. I thought people had quit posting in this thread. I let it get out of control.

    PLEASE try to stay on topic and without using spoilers from RotS.
     
  22. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    I repeat. Stay on topic. Failure to do so will carry consequences. And as Darth_Sammy52 stated: NO EIII SPOILERS. Thank you.
     
  23. durty_mynock

    durty_mynock Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2005
    The "I am your father" scene is the greatest moment of the american 7th art...I know this moment by hearth, and I love quoting this...(it have a strange effect in the middle of a serious discussion)
    GL is a genius , in spite of Howard the Duck, and this scene is too holy to contest it!!! (I wonder if the person who send the topic is a real starwars fan????LloOolL)
     
  24. Weirdo_Anonymous

    Weirdo_Anonymous Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2005
    For those who viewed the OT first, they would have experienced Luke's shock at finding out that Vader was his father. However, for those newcomers who will view the Prequels first (I know a few) will experience the shock in a different way. It will be the fact that Luke is suddenly realising the truth. The suspense of whether or not Luke will discover Vader is his father and if he will discover Leia is his sister.

    If you think about it, if you were to watch the PT first, then you would be extremely frustrated in A New Hope, because there is not one mention of Vader being Luke's father or Leia being his sister. And to add to that, she kisses him, which will be viewed more as incest than anything else by the newer viewers.

    So, although the shock factor drops slightly for the newer features, the suspense that is created by the prequels will make up for that.
     
  25. Tyranus_the_Hutt

    Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Most films which depend upon a twist or surprise for their underlying dramatic function do not, in my opinon, tend to endure in the same manner that other, more intrinsically plotted and self-contained films would. "The Empire Strikes Back" is not entirely self-contained, but it is not a primary example of the former notion - it has a particular visual and independent dramatic power which emanates from its gradually developing narrative and consequent realization of complex, layered, and successive imagery. The infamous "No - I am your father!" moment is not simply a gimmick used to jolt the audience; indeed, it is a gimmick used to jolt the audience, but not "simply". While the film does contain such a revelation, it does not depend on it in order to function - the movie uses this device as a starting point, and then transcends it. What is imperative in the scene between Luke and Darth Vader is not merely the revelation, but what specific emotional implications it has for the characters in question. Mark Hamill is sometimes criticized for his performance in these films, but his reaction to hearing this startling news from the towering Sith Lord is, in its way, perfect, lending a harrowing potency to this scene - a matter that is, I believe, partly responsible for its enduring power. Therefore, we can become familiar with the minutiae of the "Star Wars" universe, yet it continues to retain its emotional resonance, as (in this case) "The Empire Strikes Back" is an independent entity which develops its own mood and sense of urgency through its brooding narrative progression.

    Watching the prequel films prior to viewing Episodes IV-VI would give the scene mentioned above an additional complexity, due to events which may transpire in "Revenge of the Sith", and through the application of the ironic notion that such a "human" proclamation comes from someone (Vader) who has not only lost his "humanity", but is essentially no longer "human" (ie. not completely organic).
     
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