Saga The Immaculate Conception -- Terrific or Terrible

Luke went to confront his father at the shield generator. He wasn't going to confront Palpatine, but was taken there because he failed to reach his father. He tried to kill Palpatine because he was goaded into it, but the real fight was against his father and himself. Luke then surrendered when he decided to stop fighting and be a Jedi. Palpatine then owned his ass and Anakin decided to kill Palpatine, in order to save his son and died as a result of doing so. The Chosen One was supposed to destroy the Sith and he did exactly that. Palpatine shorted out Vader's suit, which was the thing that was keeping him alive. And Vader slammed dunked Palpatine down the reactor shaft, vaporizing him. The prophecy never said how the Sith had to be destroyed, just that they had to be. And the nature of the Sith is to betray the other.

 

I guess you could see it that way, if you aren't discerning enough to see what actually happened on screen - that Luke is responsible for destroying both.

 

Only in the sense that they both wanted someone to help them kill the other, which is what the whole Rule of Two was about.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

But in the end, Anakin is the Chosen One.

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

 

He wasn't facing both of them. He was just facing Vader. That's the reason for why he's there.

No, not courage. What made him attempt to strike Sidious was despair, nothing else.

Not courage, selflessness.

That's courage, but then again, not what's being argued: "has the courage to take on the Emperor head-on". That's what you said.

Seriously?

No. Redeeming his father = redeeming his father.

He did it on his own, saving Luke in the process.

Luke didn't took out any bird.

Watch the movie. You're arguing against facts, also known as a waste of time.

 

Lol. You guys are as hilarious as you are clueless.

 

So...if Luke hadn't gone there, and done what he did,behaved the way he did, then Vader would have still done what he did?

This whole emphasis from Lucas that Anakin is the "Chosen One", that he has to make that point, rather supports the very obvious redaction that the Chosen One/prophecy story-line is; to make the story about Anakin, when it never was.

Even with the addition of the 'Chosen One' trope, viewers are still confused because....those scenes are about Luke's journey, and Anakin's redemption is tangential to/complementary to that journey.

And...the way Lucas insists on framing the story as if it is a natural corollary of his later conceptions (the rule of two, eons long battle between Sith and Jedi) is almost laughable.

This is why some of us can't see the PT as being prequels of the OT, because it is an attempt to re-draw the references. It'd be like the flashback scenes in Godfather II showing how Vito Corleone is actually a government agent, planted into the underworld to clean it up...at the behest of aliens who have contacted the government...

If you set out to re-frame a powerful set of stories, such as existed in the OT, then of course you are going to face criticism. When I say powerful I mean that those stories had a great impact upon a large number of people's lives, they struck a chord with a large number of people. To then, essentially try to overturn what those stories were saying, to re-frame characters within it in order to fit some later notions you have....is disrespectful to those stories.

Greedo shot first is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I chose yes - good choice.

Everything Anakin did, did bring balance to the force. That is what he was created to do.

 

Vader would only betray Sidious if he had an Apprentice to help him do so. That's why neither one does anything to the other for all those years until Luke comes along. Luke becomes the motivating factor in Vader wanting to kill Palpatine, but if Luke fell, then nothing would change. There would still be two Sith Lords; Darth Vader and his son Darth (insert name here). If Luke had killed Vader, then the Sith would still exist, but Luke would want to turn Leia so that he could kill Palpatine.

I just don't understand why it is difficult to accept that there are two stories going on here, with the PT in place. People are confused because they cannot pay attention to the films. Not because Lucas added more detail to the story.

I respectful say no, it doesn't disrespect the films. Nor does it overturn anything. All the PT does is add layers to the characters who didn't have any in the first place, because the OT was made first. Watching I-IX, we see Anakin's journey unfold as much as we see Luke's journey unfold. Just as we see Ben and Rey's journey unfold later on, while Luke's story continues and it all ties back to Anakin. Luke's journey is not undermined because we still see him confront the darkness within himself, while confronting the external darkness. And we also see Anakin's journey tie into it because at the heart of his story was that he wanted to do good, but also protect his loved ones. Lucas has even said multiple times that at the heart of the films that he was making, was the family relationship between Anakin and Luke.[/quote]

 

...and if my Aunt had cajones she'd be my uncle.....

In what way is what you wrote an answer to the question?


It's quite simple. If Luke hadn't done what he did, would Vader have done what he did? Would he have offed the Emperor?

I don't think he would. It doesn't even make any sense that he would, and also.....well, I'll pose another question at the end....

Oh...of course, the usual response...it's the audience that's at fault...because they can't pay attention....

If you're paying attention it's clear that Luke is the one making all the choices, making all the plays. It is Luke that drives the narrative, Luke's choices that make the running. It should be no surprise then that anybody paying attention might com to believe that if there is a "Chosen One", that epithet seems to suit Luke a whole lot more than it does Anakin.

Let's see. Luke: Refuses evil. Check. Commits mass murder. No. Joins tyrannical leader in oppressing the galaxy.No. Destroys Jedi Order.No. Understands what it is to be a Jedi. Check.

Anakin: Refuses evil. No. Commits mass murder. Check. Joins tyrannical leader in oppressing the galaxy. Check. Destroys the Jedi Order. Check. Understands what it is to be a Jedi. No.

And you want to argue it's because they're not paying attention?

If not for Luke Vader will not off the Emperor. It is only through the example of Luke that Anakin acts.

[/quote]

It doesn't add layers, it is designed to work on the pretext that the earlier trilogy is actually about Anakin, that there is a saga which is about Anakin. But those movies are clearly about Luke primarily.

This notion that Lucas has "even said multiple times..." (and I don't put very much value on what Lucas says he always had in mind...)that the movies are about the family relationship between Anakin and Luke doesn't even make any sense; Lucas says outright that it was Anakin's attachment that lead to his fall....but here I'm supposed to believe that it is his attachment to his son that leads to his redemption.

And this is where my question comes in. What if Vader had attempted to catch the Emperor off guard in the expectancy that Luke would join him...and that he had accomplished his assassination, but had died in the process..... would he still have been redeemed? Would he have done the right thing? Given that that would fulfill what Lucas says is what makes him the "Chosen One"...doesn't that have a pretty shallow ring to it?

What if he'd killed them both by accident(you know, like when he destroyed the TF ship in TPM)? Would that count? Is that all that the "Chosen One" is? What, really, has that got to do with "greater destiny"? Doesn't Luke actually fit the description far better in every way.....except that Vader basically....shoots the Emperor in the back?

 

In ROTS, he states that he could overthrow Palpatine and rule with Padme. So it makes sense because the nature of the Sith is the desire to rule and to be the dominant one. So it does make sense to want to kill him.

When people ask who was the Chosen One and assume that it was Luke, or some other such thing, then it is their fault. ROTS has Obi-wan state what it is Anakin was supposed to do. In ROTJ, he is seen doing that very thing.

Vader wants to kill Palpatine way before he decides to do so in ROTJ.

VADER: "Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way."

The only thing that's changed in ROTJ is that Anakin chooses to destroy Palpatine not out of ambition, but out of compassion for his son. Luke is the catalyst for Vader wanting to turn on Palpatine, but it isn't until the last moment that his motives change. Before learning of Luke, Vader's still content to serve under Palpatine because he doesn't have the means to usurp him.

Yes, but Anakin's story still carries over from the PT. That was the point. Anakin's story doesn't change just because Luke is the focus for three films. No matter how it was going to be done, the backstories were going to carry over into the films. Anything that wasn't ever talked about at the time the films were made, would be reflected. That's why Lucas said that it is Anakin's story, but there is also Luke's story and Obi-wan's story and other stories being told as well. The main driving force is Anakin, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other points of view.

Right, because Anakin chooses to stop being evil for his son. He stops being selfish and self-centered which was his downfall. His attachment. Even way back in the first draft of ANH, Prince Valorum starts to question his allegiances and then starts to act on it, once he sees the example of Annikin Starkiller who reminds him of what he once represented. Valorum starts to think outside of himself and does something noble. The same is true in ROTJ.

Anakin is only redeemed because of Luke's example in not turning to the dark side and sparing him. Would he still be the Chosen One if he destroy him and died in the process? Yes. The Chosen One doesn't necessarily have to be a good man, but in this case, it helps since the risk involved would be fatal.

Essentially, he's the one who destroys the Sith and restores balance to the Force. That's why Lucas has never said that he was to be a shining example of what a Jedi could be. He isn't the messiah. He doesn't become a cultured Force guru who understands the nature of the Force. He's just the one who stops the horror.

Anakin's great destiny was to help people. Shmi told him that the biggest problem was that no one helps anyone else, so for him, he wanted to help people. That carried over the older he became and he thought that being a Jedi was the path to doing that. He could have stayed on Tatooine and find ways to help locally. He could have become a member of local security and help that way. But he chose the path that made sense to him and he tried to stay on that path, but he was presented with a different path. One that he wasn't entirely fond of, but that he could get behind if it gave him what he wanted. Instead, becoming a Sith was the worst thing that he could do. But in the end, he chooses to save his son. He chooses to help, than to destroy. He chooses to do the right thing. He realizes that he could always help people, because he always had the means to. He just became obsessed with power because he was afraid.

Luke's destiny is and always was meant to be different. He did want to help people, but his path was his own. His destiny was to help rebuild the Jedi Order, but he chose to save a man that he felt was worth saving. That needed saving. Vader shoots Palpatine in the back, because that is the end result of the choices that he made in his life. Had he made different choices, he would have had a different life and his confrontation with Palpatine would have been different. He could have chosen to do the right thing and he would be rewarded when he finds out that Padme would not die in childbirth. He would have gained the trust of the other Jedi Council members. He would have become a Master. His name would have been remembered as the hero who saved everyone, rather than the one who made things worse. That would have been a great destiny.

 

Rambling, incoherent nonsense.

You say that Anakin's "greater destiny" was to help people...but you argued that Anakin fulfills his greater destiny by his actions in ROTJ. You have linked the prophecy with Anakin's "greater destiny"....but now...it turns out, all that that prophecy is, is that he is to kill someone. Now you treat "greater destiny" and prophecy as separate items.

I'm not having a go at you...you have to dance on these shifting sands because the story has become incoherent, jabbering idiocy. It has nothing to say. The whole prophecy and "Chosen One" is all just about killing someone...how very....edifying... How...grand... What a truly epic tale.

You say it is the audience's fault (yet again, as any good Lucas apologist must) because "ROTS has Obi-wan state what it is Anakin was supposed to do."......errmm..yeah it has Obi-Wan state those things that Anakin clearly hasn't done...it has Obi-Wan state those things in reference to Anakin's abject failure to live up to what was expected of the "Chosen One"

"Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness..." which seems to be what Luke does....

"....destroy the Sith...not join them"..which is what Luke appears to do (you'll notice he doesn't join them...whereas Anakin does...).

 

No, it goes back to what we discussed earlier. Anakin's destiny, his best destiny, was to help people. It was the thing that he was meant to do because it was what he wanted to do. His greater destiny was to help everyone by destroying the Sith. This isn't dancing around, shifting sands. It is the very things that I've talked about before. Like my example of James Kirk's best destiny was to be a starship captain, going out and making a difference. It wasn't living in Iowa and being a family man. It wasn't being a Rear Admiral who is stuck behind a desk. It isn't even being retired. He had many paths, but he chose the one that had defined who he was and it had become his best destiny. Anakin's best destiny was to help people as a Jedi. His greater destiny was the purpose for which he was born and trained to do.

The moral of the story is that Anakin comes to learn the lesson that power corrupts and absolute power, corrupts absolutely. That he had the power to shape his destiny, rather than be a slave to it. He could have done his job if he hadn't been so selfish and afraid.

YODA: "A prophecy that misread could have been."

The prophecy never said that the Chosen One had to be a Jedi at the time he fulfilled his destiny.

 

"Best destiny" and "greater destiny"....just drivel, as far as I can see. It was Anakin's "best destiny" to "help people"?.....ermm, isn't that,like, everybody's best destiny? So, Anakin's "best destiny" was the same as anybody else's "best destiny". So then, it all comes down to this "greater destiny" which is....just to kill somebody. And it doesn't even matter what the motivation for that is....just so long as he kills him and (latterly) that he also dies in the process...

But...if the story is about the relationship between Anakin and Luke, as father and son, isn't the moral of the story how the power of attachment can turn a man's life around and redeem him? Oh...but hang on.....wasn't it the power of his attachment (to his wife) that lead to his fall? So...is the moral...be attached to your son...but not your wife..?

But more seriously...what kind of moral story is it that depends only on Anakin killing a man and dying as well...regardless of the motivation? Even if Anakin killed the Emperor with the aim simply of usurping him, of taking his power...but killed himself in the process then he would still fulfill the prophecy and his role as "chosen one" - his (allegedly) "greater destiny". That isn't a moral story. That's putting it as simply as possible. So...it should come as no surprise that...if you introduce the idea of a "chosen one"....then people are going to associate that with a moral tale...which is Luke's - whose choices come down to questions of morality; he refuses the darkside, is willing to lay down his life rather than succumb to the darkside. It is not because people "aren't paying attention" that they see in Luke a more edifying idea of "chosen one"...it is that what that "chosen one" is, ultimately, is horribly empty of meaning and morality

Again...you haven't really addressed the points I raised. "destroy the Sith, not join them" is what Obi-Wan describes, as an element of what the "chosen one" ought to do. Anakin joined the Sith, Luke didn't...nothing to do with being a Jedi.

 

Exactly.

The actual story of the OT is unchanged as is Luke's story. What doe happen though is that now we get the total overall story of Anakin through Vader, Sidious, Obi-Wan and Yoda.

No. If he kills Sidious as a Sith then the Sith aren't destroyed. That is what he wanted in TESB. In ROTJ he destroys Sidious as a Jedi. Not at all the same save for Sidious being dead but not the Sith.

It's all "drivel" in the end because it's Lucas' drivel and his story.

Why do you always fight his story that he knows far better than any of us?

 

No, that's why I said that Luke is the catalyst for Anakin's redemption, nothing more. He didn't defeat the Sith nor did he bring balance to the Force. He can't take credit for something he didn't do, as it was being argued.

 

No, because if it was everyone's best destiny, the world wouldn't be in such sorry shape. People would help their fellow man regardless of personal cost or concern. There would be more doctors, rescue personnel and more charity work being done. There wouldn't be people who only care about themselves. Greed wouldn't exist. Selfishness wouldn't exist. Crime wouldn't exist. But they do and that is because not everyone's best destiny is to help people. Not everyone has the desire to help others over themselves.

Anakin's best destiny is born out of his initial upbringing. He knew nothing of greed. He didn't ask for reward. He volunteered his life and his own well being to help four total strangers. It was something that felt good to him and is why he wanted to be a Jedi, because that was what Jedi did. Help people. To him, helping people was the greatest thing that he could do with his life. But he became obsessed with helping himself and the rest fell into place.

The greater destiny is in finding out what it is that he has to do, which is to destroy the Sith and restore the balance. He doesn't have to die for it to happen. He could have made things right without turning, but he did and as a result, he has to die as well.

Anakin falls because he was attached to his wife and his mother before him. He is saved because he has a son and his son brings out the best in him. Being a parent should bring out the best in you. A good parent will fight for their child and will die for their child. They will not think of themselves, but of their children. You're a parent, you know what that is like. You've made sacrifices for your loved ones. Good parents are the ones who do this and the ones who cannot do that, will sometimes do the right thing and put the child up for adoption. So that the child can have a good home and have the things that are important to the child's well being.

In AOTC, attachment is defined as being wrong for a Jedi. It is linked to possession. In ROTS, Yoda says that attachment leads to jealousy and greed. In AOTC, love is defined as unconditional love. Compassion. They are essential to being a Jedi. Yoda tells Anakin to let go of his fears by training himself to let go. But he refuses to take the difficult path and instead opts for the easy solution, which in the end becomes Anakin's undoing. Yoda expresses this to Luke in TESB.

LUKE: "Is the dark side stronger?"

YODA: "No... no... no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."


YODA: "If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

"It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Luke almost takes the easy path, but he doesn't and he has done so because he learned the lesson of the tree cave.

And that is why they misunderstand the story. The morality of what Luke does, doesn't make him the Chosen One because many Jedi choose not to fall to the dark side. Doesn't make them the Chosen One. Obi-wan faces the dark side with Maul on Naboo, but he doesn't turn to the dark side and instead defeats him without it. But that doesn't make him the Chosen One. Because the Chosen One is one who will do what the others cannot do. He goes to the dark side and comes back from it, which puts him on a higher plain than a Jedi who never embraces the darkness. He finds the balance within himself and brings balance by destroying the source of the imbalance. And he does so because he makes a morally correct decision to save his son, rather than to save himself.

It has everything to do with it. The Rule of Two was created to preserve the Sith, but it winds up being their undoing because a Jedi turned Sith becomes a Jedi again and destroys their legacy.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

So because they wanted to turn Luke, rather than just killing him, they wound up destroying each other. The antithesis of a symbiotic relationship becomes apparent in ROTJ and it is the result of his choosing to become a Sith. Thus, the prophecy was possibly misread. That the Chosen One might not have been a Jedi, but a Sith who was a Jedi and becomes one again.

 

But it's not "unchanged".How can it be "unchanged" if, originally, there was no balance to the Force which needed righting (which there wasn't)? And, consequently, no prophecy or "chosen one" who would bring that about? And, consequently, no requirement to kill the Emperor for there to be victory over the Empire? And, consequently, no victory for the rebellion without Anakin's actions? The two battles, which were mirrors, have become conflated, reducing the other actors to impotent bit-parts, near bystanders.

How is that "unchanged"?

That bit about Anakin having to be a Jedi...."you have done that yourself". At no point does Lucas say any such thing. as darth-sinister put it; "The prophecy never said that the Chosen One had to be a Jedi at the time he fulfilled his destiny."

or, in response to my question as to whether Anakin's motivation is important

" Would he still be the Chosen One if he destroy him and died in the process? Yes. The Chosen One doesn't necessarily have to be a good man..."

What makes Anakin the "chosen one", what fulfills the prophecy, is that he kills both the Emperor and himself...destroying the Sith. That's it.

It wasn't all Lucas' story though, and the story that it was has been changed. That is what I am discussing, in a thread about whether the "chosen one" story line was a good thing. I think it was awful, and a real mangling of a much more human and meaningful tale.

You say catalyst, I say cause.

He caused what occurred to take place, by his actions. If a law is passed to stop slavery, is it the law that brings an end to slavery, or is it the officers of the law?

 

A catalyst is a cause. And yes, he was the catalyst for Anakin's redemption. Anakin's redemption is not the destruction of the Sith nor is it bringing balance to the Force. Anakin's decision and action of destroying his Vader persona and Sidious were. Luke didn't do that.

Not comparable. That's like saying the Lumière brothers were the cause of Star Wars or [insert any movie here]. Providing a condition for an event to happen is what Luke did. That's a catalyst.

 

You say not comparable, but....let's take your analogy at face value. By this token...TESB and ROTJ are not the work of Lucas, he is only the catalyst, right? For the direction, camera work, writing...all done by others. So, Lucas cannot take the credit for what others have done....

The catalysts, surely, in this analogy, would be Yoda and Obi-Wan, the cause is Luke. The actor or the cameraman is Anakin....

 

What?


So...not everyone could help others, only some people are "destined" to and the others are "destined" to be jerks?

Surely it is everyone's best destiny to help people...if destiny is about choice...I mean isn't that what best implies...or is Lucas also using a different meaning for that word as well?

Not everyone pursues that, but that isn't the same as saying that wouldn't be everybody's "best destiny" - you appear to be clutching a little bit here.

So...first two paragraphs you ramble on about attachment.....but still don't address how attachment is bad here, but ok there...and then move completely away from the issue at hand. We are still left with AOTC/ROTS - attachment bad, leads to downfall.ROTJ - attachment good, leads to redemption.

And it is Lucas who makes the point that it is Anakin's attachment issues that lead to his downfall...so how can it make any sense for his redemption to be based on his attachment to Luke?

****SOUND OF NEEDLE SCRATCHING ON VINYL.....******

Wait......What???!!!

I'm struggling to know where to start with this.

First....this is a completely new argument you are making. You have previously argued not only that Anakin's motivation is irrelevant (a weak version of the argument), but even (more strongly) that Anakin could have followed his "best destiny" and his "greater destiny"....or, as you put it in this very post

" He could have made things right without turning"

....which is contradicted by your new suggestion that what made him the "Chosen one" was that he turned to the darkside...that he joined the Sith.

This also flies in the face of your previous arguments that when he turned to the darkside that was his fault, because of his choices....now it turns out it was a part of his "greater destiny" all along...

So, Anakin turning to the darkside is what makes him special....that "puts him on a higher plain"...?

How does turning to evil, embracing evil put someone on a "higher plain" ? What does that even mean?

And then you argue this idea on the basis that what Luke chooses to do doesn't make him the Chosen One because "...many Jedi choose not to fall to the dark side." and that it is that Anakin does "what the others cannot do" that singles him out as the "chosen one"

Can I just point out that this flies in the face of a quote by George Lucas that is, again, within the same post

"It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side."

Far from being what others could not do, what Anakin did was the easy thing, that anybody could do - that's why Yoda describes the darkside as "Quicker, easier, more seductive" (which..again you have posted on this same post)


Your suggestion that what Luke does is, essentially, nothing special, because other Jedi do the same.....yeah...that's why it's call Return of the Jedi? That's why, once Luke has had that epiphany and makes the choice he does he declares that; "I am a Jedi.."

If what you have described isn't a complete mangling of the story, and of any moral compass then...I don't know what is.....

Again, if that is intended to be the story, is it any wonder people might propose the more edifying idea of Luke as "Chosen One"?

No....have you forgotten what the discussion was about? You were arguing that those who thought Luke might be the Chosen One could only think so because they weren't paying attention.....that Obi-Wan had even said what the Chosen one was supposed to do, at the end of ROTS

I pointed out that what Obi-Wan said the Chosen One ought to do is exactly what Anakin didn't do, That it made more sense , taking his words into account, to see Luke as the Chosen One...I specifically highlighted "destroy the Sith, not join them" because.....Anakin joined the Sith and didn't destroy them...whereas Luke didn't join them and destroyed them....

PS...sorry for the double post but...I couldn't not respond to this.

 

Best destiny is figuring out what you are good at and doing it. Not settling for anything less than what you are. The person who goes to medical school and becomes a successful doctor, they did so because it was their best destiny. They didn't settle for being a medic or a nurse. They refuse to go onto become administration, or become a private doctor who doesn't put as much effort into helping people. They find the one area of medicine that is for them and they do their best to be good at what they do. They do it not for the fame, nor the money. They make the sacrifices for their own personal life to help others.

Another person could have that same best destiny, but they choose to go down another path. They drop out of school, or barely finish it because they're not capable. They get in with the wrong crowd. They choose to commit crimes because they would rather do the quick and easy way to money. They don't want to, or are incapable of going past their station. The end result is a person who is not living up to their best destiny, because of the choices that they made. They don't even have to be a doctor to have a best destiny.

In both cases, they have the capacity for great things or for terrible things. They just have to work hard for the better things in life. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be something that fits them. Han had the capacity to do great things, but for a long time, he didn't live up to his potential. Then he got involved in the Alliance and he began to live up to his potential. Being part of something that was greater than himself did make him feel good. He found his best destiny.

Because when Anakin fell, it was because he was attached to Padme. To the moment in time that he was living in. He was a hero, he was respected, he was a Jedi Knight and he had his friendship with Obi-wan. He was even going to be a father. Then he sees that he will lose that perfect moment and he wants to keep it. He has become attached to his wife and to his life. He cannot accept change. When he is saved, it isn't because he is attached to Luke. It is because he is letting go of all he has feared to lose. He is not thinking of his lust for power and his desire to rule the Empire. He is no longer filled with anger and hate. He is no longer afraid to die. The only thing he can think of is that he has to save his son, not because he is afraid to lose him, but because his son is the best thing that he has ever done in his life and because it is the right thing to do. When he turned on Mace, he was thinking only of himself. What he wanted. What he needed. When he saves Luke, he isn't thinking about himself.

It's the same way as seeing someone being hurt and you are there, but do nothing because you don't want to get involved. That is wrong and selfish. If you are willing to help, even at the possible expense of your own life and well being, then that is the right thing to do. That is selflessness.

I'll explain.

First, Anakin could very well have made the right choice in Palpatine's office. That is true. But he makes the wrong choice. However, as I pointed out, Yoda states that the prophecy might have been misread. Meaning that the Chosen One wasn't supposed to become a Jedi Knight, but instead, becomes a Sith Lord. That doesn't mean that it was his destiny to become a Sith Lord, just that the Jedi might have gotten things wrong.

Second, Anakin is the only Jedi who falls to the dark side and then comes back from it. This makes him more unique than a Jedi who has never fallen (Obi-wan), or a fallen Jedi who is now a Sith (Dooku), or someone raised to be a Sith (Palpatine). He has experienced the darkness and the light and has found balance within himself, before he brings balance to the Force. This puts him above Luke who sees the darkness and chooses not to step into the abyss. Anakin stared into the abyss, blinked big time and then stepped into it, only to come back out of it years later.

Third, it is possible that "Return Of The Jedi" isn't just about Luke, but about Anakin. After all, he becomes a Jedi again.

Fourth, what Lucas was saying is that it is easier to succumb. Yes, but most of the Jedi are willing to take the more difficult path. Luke chooses not to go down that path and Anakin did. Then we see his struggle to come back from it in ROTJ. That doesn't make Luke special for choosing not to turn, since other Jedi have also made the choice long ago. But Anakin would be special since he is the only one to break the spell of the dark side.

The prophecy might have been misread and that the Chosen One does join the Sith and then destroys them because he is one.

 

Falling to the Dark Side is quicker and easier than staying within the Light, but coming back from the Dark Side to the Light is infinitely more difficult than staying within the Light. So the order from easiest to most difficult is Beginning and Staying in the Dark (Palpatine), Beginning in the Light and falling and staying in the Dark (Dooku), Beginning and Staying in the Light (Yoda), Beginning in the Light, falling to the Dark, and coming back to the Light (Anakin). Twould be quite interesting if Snoke began in the Dark and ended up rising to the Light. Hmmmm...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I like it the "incarnation" idea. Although Shmi herself doesn't even know what happened, unlike Mary did if one is talking Jesus. It's more Buddhism I think, and GL likely took those kind of stories.

MJ

 

I vote terrible. I think Star Wars should stay away from blatant religious or current political references.

 

He has admitted as such.

MOYERS: You said you put the Force into Star Wars because you wanted us to think on these things. Some people have traced the notion of the Force to Eastern views of God--particularly Buddhist--as a vast reservoir of energy that is the ground of all of our being. Was that conscious?

LUCAS: I guess it's more specific in Buddhism, but it is a notion that's been around before that. When I wrote the first Star Wars, I had to come up with a whole cosmology: What do people believe in? I had to do something that was relevant, something that imitated a belief system that has been around for thousands of years, and that most people on the planet, one way or another, have some kind of connection to.I didn't want to invent a religion. I wanted to try to explain in a different way the religions that have already existed. I wanted to express it all.

--Time Magazine interview, 1999.

Kasdan was the one who helped Lucas figure out how to express the Force by using Buddhism as a guide from which Yoda would explain the Force to Luke.

Well, it has always had both. With the latter, it was the actions of Richard Nixon who was in trouble with Watergate at the same time Lucas was trying to write the first draft of ANH.

One of the larger issues that surfaced in the telling of Anakin's fall to the dark side and his rise to becoming a corrupt figure was that of the fall of democracy at the hands of the very people who initially fought oppression.

"You have the personal issue of Anakin and his turn to the dark side, but then the children later bring him back to being a human being," Lucas says. "But the larger issue is that you've given up your democracy, and that the bad guys never took it -- it was handed to them. That theme was there 30 years ago which came out of the Vietnam War and Nixon wanting to change the rules so he could get a third term."

"I'm a big history buff and I was really into Caesar at the time," Lucas recalls. "I always wanted to know why the Roman Senate gave Caesar's nephew a dictatorship after they had gotten rid of Caesar. Why after the revolution in France did they create an Emperor? Why did the Germans after they had a Democracy after World War I, turn it into a dictatorship? Those were my initial questions 30 years ago."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Homing Beacon #142

Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.

Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?

Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke’s father into the dark side.

--Return Of The Jedi story meeting transcript, 1981.