Full Series Mini Series The Inquisitors (Spoilers)

Lucas early on viewed Vader as weak, he just tweaked & elaborated upon it later on to explain his weakness is due to him being a cripple and more droid than man.



How Star Wars Conquered the Universe: The Past, Present, and Future of a ...
By Chris Taylor

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- George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.

- George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

- George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005



Lucas would also explain the slower fighting style of of Luke was because he wasnt fully trained and was trained by old men, and that Vader was slow because he was older and a cripple and more a droid. Thats why the OT's fighting was slower in general because they were mostly old guys, and not fast and fluid fighting of the Jedi in their prime as in the PT(or TCW).

 

Why are you repeating this so often? By now we all know what Lucas thought of Vader. Since he is out of the picture now, it has little bearing on rebels and all the other works in progress. Even Dave Filoni has more of a say now than Lucas.

 

It is posted because its relevant and fact pertaining to the discussion and discussions concerning Vader's strength ect. I don't know why you always take offense, its just a character. But if it busts some peoples bubble then so be it, I cant help that. With regard to Filoni, he can be either acting like a big kid that can play with toys that were not available to him when he was younger cause he has some more power or simply oblivious to his former boss very public narrative and that has been canon for many many years. So Filoni is taking from the well but not properly distributing the water or doing it very unevenly or maybe he's trying to reinvent that well. Or alternatively maybe Filoni is just doing public relations, and trying to sell the show like a showman , while gassing up the audiences's exceptions while also not trying make them feel bad. But it does not change the fact that OT/cyborg Vader was aways considered weak. This was carried over even into TFU(A broken shell of his former stuff Sidious utters) and also why Vader was soundly defeated by his apprentice Starkiller. Sith like Maul and Vader having lost parts of their body are weaker than they were before, as before that either Maul or Vader could have been Sidious's potential successor and its why he chooses very powerful young apprentices(not counting Dooku) . Even Luke is weaker cause he lost his hand.

 

I don't take offense, but I am still confused why you bring up Lucas interviews or even old EU-quotes as if they mattered. They don't, and this has been already been made abundantly clear.

Lucas has gone on record that VII isn't even based on his ideas. Bob Iger has also made very clear that he is now the boss. One of the spinoff-writers openly said that he dislikes the PT and nobody in LFL had a problem with that. Do you really think these people care about decades old interviews?
The old EU has been relegated to legends status, none of it is considered canon.

Neither Lucas-quotes nor old Legends seem like relevant sources in the moment.

I can understand that it is hard to let go, but it's been now many months since the legends EU was decanonized, enough time to get used to it imo.

Why don't you stick to sources that are proven relevant, everything in the new canon, TCW and the movies?

The idea that Vader was so weak was company line because Lucas said so, repeatedly, as you just proved. But Lucas isn't there anymore and Filoni, his greatest fanboy, is also beholden to the storygroup. The storygroup is now the real creative power calling the shots and so far they didn't ever say that Vader was weakened by cybernetics, it's not even on the starwars.com page. Then there is the new Lords of the Sith novel, a storygroup product, which states that Vader's force connection got strengthened after he received his injuries. So I hope you understand why I don't believe this part of the story is still in place/relevant/supported. The only new source on the influence of Vader's cybernetics states that his power increased after receiving them.

 

Sorry, I think you miss the point of the finale. The Inquisitor should have won, and would have won under the usual circumstances. But the circumstances were different, Kanan finally fully connected to the Force. It is not about training, hard skills, etc.
It is about the Force.


... not that Jedi-training means a whole lot. Yoda declared Luke's training done after what has been a mere crash course. And when has Kanan ever trained using two light sabres, one of them being a blaster/sabre hybrid, and using them proficiently?

 

It is not an idea it is a fact though. We don't know what Filoni is doing to truly comment either way as I was trying to say, it is not likely he's gonna reinvent Vader. Fanboy and PR talk for the media is not a tangible line of evidence, it'll make him look dumb if he's portraying a character not the way his mentor outlined it and what we shown for over 2 decades. If he does decide to, then its anachronistic, even if its storygroups decision cause they want to re-use Vader in some movie to make a buck off the character this character is an iconic media villain. The only real impression I get is Filoni is likely just saying Kanan and Ezra are too early in their game training to go up against a Sith Lord, Darth Vader and come out alive. Which is true, and not unlike Kenobi and Skwyalker against Count Dooku or even Jinn and Kenobi against Darth Maul. But someone like Tano stands more than a very good chance of confronting and defeating Darth Vader. Some may not want to hear that or believe it, but its realistic. Kanan as of now is no Anakin Skywalker or Kenobi, and Ezra is no Tano. As the show progresses their skill will likely increase, duels with a main villain like Vader(essentially being the Count Dooku/Tyranus of the series) will end up mostly like the 50/50 duels on TCW when the heroes(primarily Anakin and Kenobi) faced off against Dooku, Ventress, and Grievous . Dooku and Grievous especially as characters appear in the movies that take place after the toon can't die. Maul facing off against ROTS Jedi, Kenobi, Dooku and Grievous and Sidious also have the same afforded protection.

Kenobi defeated a pre-disfigured Vader, but chose to let him die suffering rather than deliver the final death blow. Why didnt Kenobi finish off Vader, when he knows there is a distinct possibility of a Sith not dying so easily as he already faced and lost to Maul months prior is anybodies guess.

The Vader we saw in the OT movies was not particularly powerful, but powerful enough to easily defeat a would-be Jedi or a non-force senitive underling. Luke defied Vader's best efforts in capturing the boy initially in ESB and was forced into a prolonged duel which could've ended in either one of them getting injured or dead. In fact in the prolonged duel, once Vader lost surprise and fear factor as Luke held his ground and fought Vader successful enough to have injured Vader's right shoulder where Vader had to make sure there could be no playing around as his life was on the line and he chose his life there over his son, when he cut off his hand. Once Luke Skywalker was not holding back anymore and defended his sister's life in ROTJ, Vader was not worth spit. Vader was too slow and non agile, and could not overcome old Ben Kenobi- who was gonna be overrun by Stormtroopers flocking to Vader's side in ANH, there was no way Kenobi was making it out alive whether he killed Vader or not. Vader was no match for Luke's physicality, strength and grace in the Death Star II's throne room in ROTJ. There isnt much more to say on the subject. But its also another reason why Inquisitors and adepts exist, to aid Vader, much like magnaguards would Grievous but these soldiers go out on their own missions under his command as attack dogs - which means even if they do not successfully bring down their prey, they could atleast wound and soften them up for the kill of their owner(Vader).

 

You can call it dumb if you want, but it is pretty likely to happen, whether you like it or not.

Vader is at least in the top three important characters of the entire franchise, and he's a villain. If a villain is popular, he is usually shown as super-powerful and impressive etc. That's why the Joker isn't just a crazy dude with a painted face, he is almost a force of nature with divine foresight and superhuman resilience, despite his lack of superpowers.

Hannibal Lector - the same.

And guess what, Vader is in the same league as this guys, as far as popularity goes.

If Ahsoka can defeat Vader, then his credibility as villain is dimished. I doubt they will do that. It won't happen for the same reason that Magneto isn't defeated by the Toad. Magneto, by the way, wasn't hot stuff right after his creation, they made him a lot bigger after they realized he was popular.

I doubt that Filoni could get away with doing to Vader what he did to Dooku, the Disney executives would have his head on a pike.

Revenge is my theory.

Vader in the OT is absolutely powerful. He had Obi-Wan basically capitulate, he crushes necks with incredible ease, he shoots down half the X-Wings attacking the Death Star all on his own. And that's just the first movie.

In the second one he defeats Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and is pretty much always ahead of the game, only losing to circumstances out of his control (like the fact that R2 somehow makes it to Leia in time).

He is absolutely shown as a powerhouse, the exception maybe being ROTJ, when he is full of doubts and lost his way as a Sith, but he still manages to rip thoughts out of a Jedi's mind and kills Palpatine.

If he didn't come across as immensely powerful than he probably wouldn't have become one of the most popular villains of all time. Honestly I almost have the impression that you have some sort of axe to grind, for whatever reason. Are you jealous that Maul stands in his shadow?

Maul is a great character in his own right, but he'll never be as popular as Vader, very very few characters are.

 

Vader is more machine than man , that is a fact. So no he's not in top form or comparable to someone strong in the Force and not missing any body parts , someone who has peak Force ability and Jedi arts training. Is he a force still be reckoned with sure, but so was Grievous who had no Force ability. And Maul already proved even being crippled does not make him any less of a threat. But neither Vader or Maul can be 100%, and that is the main difference, because they're not fully organic, Vader is in worse condition because he's kept alive with an iron lung and can't live without life support and he does not have the range of motion than Maul or Grievous have.

 

The idea that being more machine than man makes you weaker in the dark side stems from Lucas.

In the OT, there was no such issue. The Sith were supposed to be the inhumans ones, the twisted ones, the ugly ones. Even the darkside itself is called unnatural and it is used by unnatural looking beings. Vader's machine parts put him straight into the uncanny valley and that's where him and his kind belong.

Maybe it is the force that only flows through a being pure and whole.

But the dark side is a different animal.

And TCW Maul's showings were much stronger than TPM Maul's, because TCW Maul throws ships from cliffs while TPM Maul barely does anything with his force potential, he hardly ever uses the force.

 

Vader lost a lot of potential power when he needed to be strapped into the armour/life support... and is STILL immensely powerful. That's why Palpatine bothered to save him in the first place. A Vader who is only ever going to reach maybe 75% of his original potential is still head and shoulders above 99% of other Force users (those still in canon anyway.) Without the suit, he'd be THE most powerful, ever, eventually anyway.

Maul is/was generally a blunt instrument, he never seemed to use the Force outside of fighting and even then only as shoves or to boost his own athleticism. Even TCW Maul is generally a 'violence is ALWAYS the solution' type.

 

Why do you reiterate what Lucas said?

I've already explained why interviews from over a decade ago don't have much value, so please adress that point rather than parroting what Vorax said days ago.

Maul is quite cunning in TCW and shown as every bit as clever as rivals like Count Dooku. He was very adapt at uniting very different parties under his banner, gaining power and influence at an impressive speed. His only mistake was that he overreached, but even that mistake was a lot smaller than the ones Palpatine makes in ROTJ. Maul is a little too ambitious, while Sidious is megalomaniacal to the point of stupidity.

In TPM, he is a skilled hunter who knows how to efficiently track his prey and attacks them at the point at which they are most vulnerable.

So no, he is far from a blunt instrument.

His greatest flaw may be his obsession with revenge, that tends to sidetrack him and cause him to lose focus.

 

It's still relevant because that's still the level Vader should be seen as operating at, whatever Filoni or anyone else has him doing in between times, by the time we reach the Classic Trilogy timeline (where the show will end up if it lasts long enough) Vader is still the most powerful force user in the galaxy outside of Palpatine/Sidious who doesn't get personally involved. Regardless of the details about the suit and how it affects him, if they stay true to the canonical depiction of Vader AS ALREADY ESTABLISHED, he is too powerful for any of the Ghost crew to face in combat.

As for Maul, yes he cobbles together alliances and unites smaller groups... for military purposes. General Maul operating procedure is to find who's in charge and kill them and take over that way, there's no Palpatine type scheming and plots. He is a good tracker yes, he finds weaknesses to exploit and picks his time to strike... so he can then kill his target. I am not saying he's stupid, 'blunt instrument' is not derogatory. He's got cunning and guile but his idea of revenge is finding the person who wronged him, then killing them. He's never going to be the kind of Sith who tricks his enemies into doing the dirty work for him, except by holding a lightsaber to their throat and ordering them to. He was always going to be replaced by Dooku eventually because he isn't capable of the political influence and planning Dooku was. What he does, he does well, but that is generally fighting.

 

He's graduated from that to "Killing the one they're closest to" though - Maul has grown beyond physical revenge to emotional revenge.

 

Maul is not a politician, yes. But that doesn't mean he is less cunning than one, it's not like politician is the be all end all of powerful beings. And convoluted scheming is overrated in any case, the fragility of Palpatine's plans was apparent multiple times, from the Fives arc in TCW to the Syfo-Dias episodes. Plain luck and PIS of his enemies are what saved him. As for Dooku, in TCW at least he is mostly seen standing around and doing nothing. Dooku reacts instead of acts.

Compared to the very active and assertive Maul I find his plans and deeds - at least in TCW - far less impressive.

But it may be a matter of taste. Flowery speeches about how a super-complicated (and therefore fragile) plan unfolded just the way the monologuing supervillain wants bore me. I'm more into villains who are active in the field and get their hands dirty.

As for the obsession with revenge, it is probably Maul's greatest flaw, as it narrows his vision. But even the fact that he has such flaws besides the typical megalomaniacal overconfident psychopathy most Sith exude, puts him head and shoulders above others as a character.

 

Fair point. But still, his main idea of revenge still mostly boils down to killing someone when it comes down to it. Obi-Wan ruined Maul's life, Maul goes about ruining Obi-Wan's by pretty direct means, which totally fits Maul's personality in fairness. It's not a criticism of Maul as a character, he's genuinely badass and has some legitimately impressive feats and skills under his belt. But he's a warrior not a schemer, if he'd survived Episode One it would be at the expense of Grievous, not Dooku (Rule Of Two business aside.)

I like Maul as a character, don't get me wrong. But he's never going to end up one of the really influential Sith like Bane or Revan or Sidious because he's not really got that ambition to be. He fights anyone and everyone on his way to the top but once he's dead, he'd be forgotten very quickly.

 

*shrug*
Revenge isn't worse than uncontrollable greed and whatever the hell young Vader's motivation was in ROTS. These are all villains and they have their flaws, usually epic flaws because those are more fun.

If you ask me, Dooku should be the one who brings the Republic down and Maul the one who leads the CIS while Sidious lies dead because Plagueis outwitted and killed him, but that may be because I don't buy into Sidious' alleged genius.

Plain and simple because it doesn't fit the current storyline, not because he's dumber or less ambitious than Palpatine or Bane.

 

He IS less ambitious than Bane and Palpatine though. Bane wanted to (and succeeded in) rewriting the very foundation of the Sith Order. Palpatine achieved what no other Sith had managed and ruled the known Galaxy as undisputed Emperor and dictator. Maul hasn't got anything that even remotely compares to those kind of achievements, in the end he was basically spending his whole life trying to kill one Jedi Master who consistently proved better than him. Personally I agree with you that Sidious had the Power Of Plot to thank for many of his more ludicrously elaborate schemes working EXACTLY AS PLANNED when there was far more that could and should have gone wrong but didn't, because plot. But in the context of the overarching plot about the rise of the Sith, Maul is a footnote at best.

Maul's cool, no doubt. But to me he's never going to be anything other than 'Boba Fett with horns and a lightsaber' - looks cool, serves plot function, dies. And that really should have been the end of him for me.

 

I think you should rewatch TCW, if you think Maul wasn't as ambitious as the likes of Bane.

Maul united the Mandalorian systems under his rule because he wanted to make a power grab for control of the entire galaxy. Revenge against Obi-Wan was just a bonus in his plans.

He didn't succeed because Sidious stopped him, but the ambition was there. That's what I meant when I said he got sidetracked by his hunger for revenge. He was too focussed on Obi-Wan rather than the real threat, Sidious.

But why? Even you agree he is a cool character. Why are you so adamant that they don't make more out of the guy, in TCW they did a terrific job of developing him. Characters like him are valuable and their potential should be explored, rather than forgotten. He's alive now, so might as well give him something interesting to do. I can even imagine him starring in a movie.

Sadly, Dooku is a case of squandered potential.

 

He's cool in that he looks undoubtedly awesome and his final fight in Phantom Menace is up there with the best of the whole saga. But there's nothing about him as an actual character that suggests to me he's got a lot of storyline potential. Maybe it's with the hindsight of the rest of the story but I just can't imagine him fitting into the plot of Sidious's scheming except in the Grievous role, as the physically imposing fighter baddie so the real villain doesn't get his hands dirty. You obviously see more in him than I do, and that's fair enough, but like I say for me, his impact on the story was killing Qui-Gonn, the one person who could have kept Anakin from falling. Maul should never have come back from the dead. They may as well have given his plot to Savage Oppress, who went absolutely nowhere once Maul was back.

 

That's a shame, but I guess not every character is for everyone.

 

True enough, and it's really not worth falling out with anyone over these things. It's personal taste, that's all. I must be the only person alive who wants a novel about General Tarpals, the only competent Gungan known to history. Compared to that, how can blame anyone for wanting more Maul?

 

Exactly! The fandom would be pretty boring if everyone liked the same things.

 

Yes, and I like the Inquisitor - the idea of such a character, the execution (Pau'an, voiced by Isaacs etc.), the way he helped developing the story and the other characters, and his end. To me, he is way more intriguing than Maul was after TPM. (I came to love the Maul stories in TCW later, though). Therefore I am looking forward to some back story, and generally more material on him like a comic book about him hunting down Jedi.

 

If we ever get a backstory/flashback I would love to see how he managed to capture Luminara. She was a fully graduated and experienced Master by the end of the war, Inky looked pretty boss going up against Kanan, but he was a) inexperienced and b) out of practice. As soon as he got his **** together he beat the Inquisitor pretty handily, the taunts and gimmicksabre didn't avail the Inquisitor much at all - so I can't really see Luminara being all that put out by some twirly-whirly lightsabre and some cutting comments. Unless of course she was distracted because of something to do with Barriss's ongoing fate.... Dun dun duuuunnnn.... (I really should leave this plot stuff to the pros.)

 

Dunno why you're getting flack for this post, I enjoyed the read.