The ins and outs of a duel between Forcers

What about the scene in ESB where Vader blocks Han's blaster shots? I've always thought it was a force power, but it could just be his armor and good reflexes.
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I tend to think it's a Force power of some sort. Note how some of the shots just disappear-not all of them are deflected.

As for it being armor, well, it's a glove. It certainly doesn't give the look of SW armor-it's flexible, and Luke doesn't seem to have much trouble cutting it in ROTJ..

 

I'm asserting that with training, it's theoretically possible for a human (without the Force) to learn how to deflect blaster bolts. There is a limited target so a person train's to protect it, then they practice, practice, and practice under various conditions so that it becomes a honed, reflexive skill.

So you're trying to tell me that with enough training you would be fast enough to stop bullets? I surely hope you are joking, because blocking blaster bolts with a lightsaber is one of the most basic Force abilities.

Watch ANH for Gods sake... What is Obi Wan telling Luke to do in order to block the training remote's shots?????

!snap

 

We're now getting away from my origional discussion however.

Answer me this question if you don't think there is an underlying Force "duel" going on: What's stopping them from just using the Force to grab the other's lightsaber out of their hand, or off their belt? Or Force push them more often?

!snap

 

So you're trying to tell me that with enough training you would be fast enough to stop bullets?

Your assumption is that blaster bolts move faster than bullets because they they seem to be light energy which in our universe moves faster than a metal projectile. There's no actual proof of this. If fact, if you use SW as a source, then blaster bolts seem to move slower than bullets. Also, cf my Sebacian argument -- who's to say that the people in SW are actually homo sapiens?


What's stopping them from just using the Force to grab the other's lightsaber out of their hand, or off their belt? Or Force push them more often?

Stover's book includes loads of references to the use of the Force during lightsaber battles. In fact, Obi-Wan uses the Force against Grievous's. {I won't say how bacause I don't know how to do the blackout}

From the trailers, it seems like Obi and Anakin do Force pushes against each other. Because of the visual convention, a Force push stand off is not as interesting as swinging lightsabers.

Why do you really want to know? If you're simply going to counter argue everyone who posts a reply, why don't you just make up your own mind and tell us what it is.

 

A bunch of points bring up a bunch of questions.

1) If Vader deflecting Han's shots is a Force power, and from the sound of it not a very hard one, why didn't Kenobi or Windu do this against Jango in Ep. II?

2) Vader's suit may or may not slow him down, but he does need it nonetheless. From ROTJ:
Anakin:"Remove my helmet." (Right ilne? I think that's it)
Luke: "But you'll die."
Apparently even if it did slow him down, there was no solution to it. It was a sacrifice to stay alive.

3) I agree with other posters, that while fighting, a "Force Battle" is secretly happening. A Jedi/Sith is using the Force to concentrate, and hone their agility and reflexes. When a Jedi/Sith senses that their opponent is losing concentration, i.e. Kenobi focusing on breaking the saber lock, a Force Push and/or Pull might have a higher chance of being successful

4) I believe Dooku could have probably become the most powerful Sith Lord if he was turned earlier. Because he was Sith, but used the Force like a Jedi; as an ally. (Off track, I know, but that one post made me have to put it)

5) This raises another question. If a lightsaber is thrown, what prevents an opponent from deflecting it at such an angle that it falls to the ground harmless?

 

Saora_Bin
1) If Vader deflecting Han's shots is a Force power, and from the sound of it not a very hard one, why didn't Kenobi or Windu do this against Jango in Ep. II?

Presumably, deflection with a lightsaber is preferable to deflection with one?s hand (the bolt, even if absorbed or deflected, would probably still burn and cause discomfort). However, we know that Darth Vader is very powerful; I?d say that while he can use this ability with relative ease others may not be able to.

Plurimus
Your assumption is that blaster bolts move faster than bullets because they they seem to be light energy which in our universe moves faster than a metal projectile. There's no actual proof of this. If fact, if you use SW as a source, then blaster bolts seem to move slower than bullets. Also, cf my Sebacian argument -- who's to say that the people in SW are actually homo sapiens?

I?d argue that we are more or less meant to accept that the humans that we see in the Star Wars saga are, well, humans. They?re played by humans and called humans; why shouldn?t we think of them as humans?

Personally, I?d say that blaster deflection with a lightsaber is a force-based skill. So far, we have only seen lightsabers in the hands of force users. Young Anakin recognizes that Qui-Gon is a Jedi by his ?laser sword?. Everyone else uses blasters. Why? I?d argue that the use of a lightsaber is tied to the use of the force; only Jedi have the reflexes to use lightsabers to deflect blaster bolts. Any other being that tired to use a lightsaber as a weapon would fare just as well as a swordsman on a modern battlefield. If non-force users could defend themselves with lightsabers, then I?d expect to see them in the hands of other beings.

I always assumed that the force flowed through powerful Jedi always, and especially during combat. The blows that they lay on with their lightsabers are not necessarily hard, but they?re given added strength through the force. Dooku, especially, fights in many cases with a flick of his wrist but can still hold out against the two-handed strikes of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Likewise, they presumably need the reflexes. In some cases, such as with Yoda, I?d say that a Jedi?s ability to fight is entirely force based.

 

If you watch the Anakin versus Asajj duel in the Clone Wars volume one duel, both opponents force push each other many times, not because the other person was at a weaker stand point, but because the two opponents were trying to get any slight advantage possible.

Also in season one of Clone Wars in the Dooku-Asajj fight featured Dooku's much superior force capabilitied actually removing the lightsabers from Asajj's, manuevering them by his lightsaber, and slicing them, thus making the duel rather one-sided. So, removing the weapon from an opponent's hand is very possible, but very, very difficult to do.

Now in response to where the force comes into the actual lightsaber combat is something entirely unseen. Jedi use the force to predict the opponent's movements and attack (hence the Jedi's ability to deflect blaster bolts). Now when you have two or more Jedi dueling it out, this is where you have the great back and forth combat, each other knows the move that's coming, the Jedi have a 99% success rate in predicting the enemie's attack, the other one percent being the decapitations and so on.

 

"I?d argue that the use of a lightsaber is tied to the use of the force; only Jedi have the reflexes to use lightsabers to deflect blaster bolts. Any other being that tired to use a lightsaber as a weapon would fare just as well as a swordsman on a modern battlefield."

Kreia from KOTOR II said something about that near the beginning, right? I can't remember the exact quote...

 

Whenever I think about lightsaber related force powers, I go back to Luke's training with the lightsaber aboard the Falcon in ANH:

Obi-Wan: Remember to feel the force flowing through you.

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

Based on most of what's been seen on the screen, it seems perfectly logical to infer that a Jedi enters a state over the course of a lightsaber battle in which their reflexes are enhanced by the Force and combines with dueling skill that they've attained over the course of their training. In addition, the Force appears to lend a sort of 'intuition' to a Jedi, which helps to guide their actions.

Qui-Gon: He sees things before they happen.. It's a Jedi trait..

Anakin was the only human who could podrace because of the Force imbuing him with natural intuition and fast reflexes. Luke's natural talent for using the Force takes over when he's got the helmet on and is practicing with the remote.

Thus, a Jedi learns how to block a blaster bolt while in training using the Force to enhance their natural reflexes/intuition and specialized saber training to get the blade around in time to deflect it. As a result, the Jedi we see on the screen appear extraordinarily fast and quite skilled.

And so, it would seem the Force figures quite heavily in the use of lightsabers..

As for actual 'telekinesis' duels, it seems like it mostly revolves around throwing increasingly heavy objects at one another. = P Or that's the impression you get from Yoda and Dooku.

 

All of this sounds great to me. I just wish everyone wouldn't try to pick apart the magic that Lucas has tried to make. Yes, Jedi have the ability of the force being the reason they become Jedi and not everyone else around them. They are special which means they can do special things like block a blaster shot or lift something with their minds. It is also obvious from the movies that these skills have to be worked on to control the force to their liking. Quit putting all the scientific crap into it and let it be what it is. Star Wars is a fictional world that should be enjoyed knowing these things.

 

Your assumption is that blaster bolts move faster than bullets because they they seem to be light energy which in our universe moves faster than a metal projectile. There's no actual proof of this. If fact, if you use SW as a source, then blaster bolts seem to move slower than bullets. Also, cf my Sebacian argument -- who's to say that the people in SW are actually homo sapiens?

Please tell me you're kidding.

!snap

 

"I?d argue that the use of a lightsaber is tied to the use of the force; only Jedi have the reflexes to use lightsabers to deflect blaster bolts. Any other being that tired to use a lightsaber as a weapon would fare just as well as a swordsman on a modern battlefield. If non-force users could defend themselves with lightsabers, then I?d expect to see them in the hands of other beings."

about that:
in KOTOR1 the game tells you its impossible to equip non-forcers with sabers because only Jedi can handle them and normies would only injure themselves.Not really convincing but thats one interpretation.

Alternately though in a Star Wars Tales comic Boba Fett was shown holding his own against Vader in a saber duel until he was force pushed away.

 

Thus, a Jedi learns how to block a blaster bolt while in training using the Force to enhance their natural reflexes/intuition and specialized saber training to get the blade around in time to deflect it. As a result, the Jedi we see on the screen appear extraordinarily fast and quite skilled.

Exactly. That's just common sence.

!snap

 

This is my belief from a cinematic point of view. Having watched all SW movies except ROTS, the Force is not tangible yet it can be used on things that are tangible, it is energy or spirit if you will of all things in the universe and only one who is conscious or becomes aware of the fact that all things are interconnected is when one can use the Force for good or evil.

As far as dueling Vader threw objects at Luke in their duel in ESB. Luke not fully understanding the Force was not able to respond or deflect any of those objects.
Darth Maul used an object to open the blast doors during his battle with Obi and Qui Gon, but the battle was really all saber. Now in AOTC force lightening was used on Anakin and after his arm got cut off a push was used to dispose of him. Why can't a duel consist of a one handed grasp on the sword and a free hand for Force related things? It is not in the script

 

I agree that the Jedi use the force to augment their already capable movements. It's the definition of Yodas form-- to use the force to extend physical capabilities. This is evident in AOTC when Anakin (previously struck by lightning) flies across a huge room (looking really cool) to save Obi-Wan.

Trying to save Obi-Wan is analagous to Luke concentrating on Vader when Leia is in danger

 

I believe that Jedi and Sith (And if EU, other Force-Users) use the Force to some extent in Lightsabre combat. I would imagine that because of their enhanced senses, due to their strong connection to the Force, they can augment their fighting ability in terms of stamina, strength, endurance, vigor, agility, anticipate your opponents actions, greater focus on control of your own weapon etc. a la Yoda in AOTC.

Concurrently, in regards to blaster deflection, I can take the physical training aspect to a point. The speed at which those blaster bolts go (fast as, if not faster than real world bullets) would be too fast to defend oneself. The Jedi must use their enhanced senses, through the Force of course, to not only anticipate when a person will fire, but what direction that bolt will come from. There are instances in the AOTC arena battle where Jedi deflect blaster bolts from behind their backs or to the side before there head looks in the direction they're blocking.

I imagine it is a combination of both physical training and Force use. The reason why a lot of Force powers i.e. pushes, lightning, etc. are not used in combat is because it is largely being used as noted in the first paragraph, which is largely defensive in nature.


Ciou-See the Sig

 

Relating to this topic, do you feel in ROTS it would have been possible for Mace to arrest Sidious? How do you contain a Forcer as powerful as Sidious, or can you contain any Forcer at all?

!snap

 

I believe that the deflection of blaster bolts is part The Force and part training. It isn't humanly possible for someone to react that fast. The Force raises all your senses and allows your body to do superhuman feats. The Force allows the Jedi to deflect blaster bolts but it is also their training that allows them to do it. As Plurimus said it is possible with a ROBOT or CYBORG not a real completely human human. This is all my opinion. Sorry if I'm wrong.

 

I always just figured that Vader's taking of Han's blasts was just that his suit/gloves were that tough, though his anticipation of where the blasts would land was his control of the Force.

 

Why Forcers don't just yank sabers from opponents' hands: it takes too much concentration. Note that in the midst of battle, Jedi and esp. Sith fighters only Force-throw large objects. It's probably easier for them to get a mental "fix" on such objects and then mentally muscle them along. With a lightsaber, I'd say it's harder to "grab" them in the first place, and harder still since a saber handle in the hands of an opponent is constantly moving and represents a serious threat to the concentration needed to try and mentally grab it.