The intentional comparison of Grievous to "Ep1 Nute Gunray"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by i_dont_know, Aug 22, 2005.

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  1. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Much of Episode 1 shows us how different Gunray is to Grievous, yet in many ways exactly the same. (Some of these examples also relate to how much things have changed in the 13 years between movies - a theme I think helps Anakin seem more a victim of circumstance. This isn't really achieved if you watch ROTS by itself).

    TPM Opening shot - An ambassador's ship carrying Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and their two pilots head for Nute Gunray's ship, part of a relatively peaceful Seperatist blockade (peaceful until Sidious comes into the picture).
    ROTS Opening shot - Two Jedi fighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin head for Grievous's ship, which is fleeing their full-scale Seperatist invasion. Things are chaotic from the first moment.
    (A cool example of the contrast between the scenes is the way the Jedi land on each ship.
    Gunray's ship - They aren't piloting, and are thought to be ambassadors. The docking bay shield is down, and several battle droids calmly watch them land.
    Grievous's ship - They pilot fighters, and are involved in the large battle before reaching The Invisible Hand. Obi-Wan: "Well have you noticed the shields are still up?!?
    They crash-land through several droids, under heavy fire, and begin killing droids immediately).

    The first thing that got me thinking about the relationship of Grievous to EP1 Gunray was the description of them by the Jedi. Grievous is a warrior, Gunray is contrastingly basically a business man at first. But one of Qui-Gon's first lines in TPM: "These trade Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short."
    This is related to Mace's second line in ROTS: "General Grievous will run and hide as he always does. He is a coward."
    It's funny that no negotiations occur with the Trade Federation, yet in ROTS, "short negotiations" occur in Grievous's command room, do they not? :)

    Before the ROTS opening Grievous invades Coruscant and believes he is capturing Palpitine.
    After the TPM opening Gunray invades Naboo and captures Amidala.
    Notice in both scenes a "decoy" leader is being captured (Palpitine/ Padme's bodyguard), under direct order from Sidious.
    Amidala decoy: "I will not co-operate".
    Nute: "Now, now, your highness. In time the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view."
    This little exchange is almost ironic, because the "Queen" he is talking to is one of Amidala's people. Padme, however, is dressed as a handmaiden in the background.


    Think about Obi-Wan's mission to kill the Seperatist leader Grievous in ROTS. This setup intentionally contrasts Vader's mission to kill previous Seperatist leader Gunray, and the other Seperatists.

    You may not believe me at first, but the opening of TPM has a very strong relation to Vader killing Nute Gunray in ROTS.
    Something people don't usually think of is the contrast between Gunray's death and Obi-Wan's/Qui-Gon's interaction with Gunray in TPM's opening.
    In TPM Sidious orders the Jedi and their pilots killed (In ROTS he order the ex-Jedi to kill Gunray). After killing the bots, Kenobi and Jinn head for the command room. Qui-Gon attempts to melt the door to enter the command room. Nute's partner (forgot the name) says "We will not survive this". Very ironic, and intentional foreshadowing - Kenobi's apprentice will eventually kill them both. And they are fearing for their lives when Qui-Gon attempts to enter their command room, when they didn't really have to. Yet they are happy to invite Vader into the command room in ROTS, and he is there to kill them. Lol. (Small detail - The first move Obi-Wan does on a bot is very similar to the "drop-down-in-front" move Vader does before killing Gunray - the moment that marks the end of the Seperatists).

    If you are still following me, there is more. Most of it can be worked out if you have enough faith to believe there are definite links between Gunray's and Grievous's ships.

    The Droid-deka related fleeing (lol, stay with me people).
    On Gunray's ship, the 2 Jedi must flee the com
  2. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Interresting read dude, well observed. Nice to have a good thread for a change rather than the same old stuff. :0)
  3. starwarsagent Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2004
    star 5
    Indeed. GOOD stuff. I have noticed the parallel qualities of ROTS and TPM. And anything that speaks about GG gets my 2 cents. But comparing GG to GUnray? I dont know :p

    Gunray is a coward while GG is the greatest warrior in the galaxy.

    SWA.
  4. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    heh. yeah, I actually agree with this in a way. They are supposed to be total contrasts, yet from "a certain point of view" they are very similar.
    The contrast between the two characters, I think, is a big part of why Gunray's death seems much more evil than Grievous's.

    It's kind of like comparing the Seperatists to the Rebels. Even though we can actually sympathise with some of the Seperatists in ROTS, and they have parallels to the rebels in ROTJ, not many people are going to say that they are completely without blame. The Seperatists are still bad guys, yet they were in the same boat as the OT rebels in many ways. That's kind of a weird analogy for Gunray and Grievous, but you probably understand where I'm coming from.
  5. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    I don't follow some of those comparisons.

    One thing I'd like to point out, is that you say that in TPM, the battle droids don't fire at the ambassadors when they land their ship in the hangar, at first. This is because both groups are part of the same Republic. If An American helicopter landed in Britain, would the British open fire on them, even if they did hate us? Look at the French...
  6. Darth-Trepidor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2005
    star 3
    I wish Greivous would have been what BECAME of Gunray. I HATED the Nemodians. They RUINED the prequels for me...
  7. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    lol, poor French people.

    Your point about the Jedi and TF being in the same Republic - try telling that to the Jedi's pilots who were exploded :) As soon as Sidious tells them to, the peaceful charade is dropped.
    We see that the "Seperatists" of TPM were much more politically careful at first, but by ROTS it has come to war.

    I think the Republic's current view of the Jedi is partly reflected in the TF's comments:
    "We dare not go against the Jedi."
    "My Lord, is that... legal?" "I will make it legal"

    The fact that they are in the same Republic at first illustrates Sidious's influence on the galaxy over the prequels. He helps turn a tax dispute into full-scale war.
    They might not fire on the Jedi at first in TPM, but in both scenes the Seperatists are under direct order of Sidious from the start.
    I was trying to show that even though things were different on the surface in the TPM and ROTS, it was all leading to the same place.

    The other reason I wanted to point out the "War/Peace" contrast is that it shows the Republic was more civilised in the era Obi-Wan was a young Jedi. From Episode 2 we know Anakin has been in a war environment since he was a padawan.

    There are just too many TPM/ROTS parallels for me to believe Lucas wasn't planning a lot of it when he wrote TPM.
  8. Anagorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 3
    The Republic is NATO and Germany and France are The Separatists.
    George Bush is Palpatine. Tony Blair is Vader.
    Soon the separatists will develop into
    a rebel alliance and reclaim
    the galaxy...
  9. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
  10. Anagorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 3
    Iran is Mustafaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar faaaaaaaaar away.
  11. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Back on topic. Considering that the Sith take advantage of everything and everyone at their disposal, it's no surprise that Gunray and Grievous share that comparison.

    They are all pawns (even Dooku) to Palpatine's ultimate plan. They are so blinded by whatever Palpatine promised them, that they dismiss that what they are doing is stupid.

    Sorta reminds me of someone else. Guy with horns, lives in a place with fire all around.
  12. Anagorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 3
    ObiWan507: The Balrog!
    Their indeed all pawns of Palpatine´s ultimate plan.
  13. CBright7831 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2004
    star 4
    Now, now. Let's not bring politics into this.

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=21213467&start=21213699
  14. BlackRook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 2
    This could all be one massive, unintentional coincidence. Consider the following scene:

    (Obi-Wan Kenobi hunts for General Jangovous on the planet Geonutapau. He meets with Count Tiooku)

    Obi-Wan: Traitor!
    Count Tiooku: May I ask what brings a Jedi knight to our remote sanctuary?
    Obi-Wan: I'm looking for a droid bounty hunter general named Jangovous.
    Count Tiooku: There are no droid bounty hunter generals here that I'm aware of, unless you brought them with you. I'll petition for your relase.
    Obi-Wan: I hope it doesn't take long. I need fuel for my ship.
    Count Tiooku: What if I told you that Jangovous is here? He is holding us hostage.
    Obi-Wan: I see.
    Count Tiooku: The tenth level. Thousands of senators under the control of a Sith lord.
    Obi-Wan: That's not true, the Jedi would be aware of it.
    Count Tiooku: Join me, and together, we will destroy the Jangovous.
    Obi-Wan: I'll never join you. Tell your people to take shelter. If you have warriors, now is the time
    Count Tiooku: It may be difficult to secure your release!
    Obi-Wan: Hang on, I need to make a call to the Old Folks' Home.

    (As Obi-Wan makes his call, an evil Geonutupauan Magna Guard spies on him! Later, or perhaps earlier that day, Obi-Wan finds the hidden entrance to the Separatist meeting hall)

    Jangovous: Ten thousand more star systems will rally to our cause with your support! Soon we will have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed, but their army will find us.
    I'm sending you to Mustafar.
    Nute Gunray: I have my doubts about your ability to keep us safe!
    Shu Mai: What you are saying can be construed as treason.
    Jangovous: It is a volcanic planet! The Republic will agree to any demands we make. Your ship is waiting.

    (Obi-Wan ambushes Jangovous and they duel! Suddenly, Yoda and some clonetroopers arrive. Jangovous suddenly changes his name to Count Grievous to facilitate further analogy!)

    Count Grievous: Oops! I'd better get out of here!
    Obi-Wan: If he escapes, the war will begin and or continue!

    (Obi-Wan chases Count Grievous to a secret hangar)

    Count Grievous: As you can see my power is far beyond yours. Now, back down.
    Obi-Wan: I don't think so.
    Count Grievous: YOU FOOL. I was trained by ME in your Jedi arts. Attack!

    (They duel some more! Suddenly, Yoda shows up and pulls open Count Grievous's chest panel and Obi-Wan shoots him)

    Count Grievous: THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING!

    (Count Grievous and Obi-Wan merge! County-Wan Kagrievous escapes in a ship after Clonetroopers fire at him. He secretly meets with his shadowy master, Darth Yodious, and the movie continues)

    Okay, so I'm stretching a bit. But you can't tell me Geonosis and Utapau didn't have some similarities.
  15. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Believe what you will, I'm pretty sure I'm right :p

    I wanted to add one more

    When Anakin is leaving Gunray's ship after destroying it, he crashes through several droids.
    This shot is very similar, but backwards, to Anakin crashing through the same droid type when he lands on The Invisible Hand in Ep3.
    Gunray's ship - Leaving the ship he has just destroyed. Smashes droids.
    Grievous's ship - Crash-landing on the ship he will later try to crash-land safely. Smashes droids.

    I like that he flies a Naboo cruiser (symbolism of innocence) in TPM, but a Jedi-fighter (symbolism of power) in ROTS.

    If you look at an example like this by itself, it seems far-fetched. But put with the other examples in this thread, and it seems like an actual technique Lucas used when writing the prequels.
  16. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    this should settle it:

    April 13, 2003

    (p 52)
    LUCAS: "I wanted it(Grievous) to be an alien who is mostly a droid, which is an echo of what Anakin is going to become."

    (quote collected by Lars_Muul)

    this is something i never picked up on. did anyone else?
  17. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    yeah, I noticed that too.
    my thread is not about the nature of General Grievous himself, it is about the reversal of events revolving around he and Nute Gunray's ships (ROTS / TPM).

    It helps us understand that Anakin's career could have been like Obi-Wan's if the environment he was trained in was peaceful. By reversing the worlds of TPM and ROTS, we see Obi-Wan is the product of a happier time, and Anakin never had the same chance.

    My theory can be summed up by comparing the ship-types the Jedi arrive in at the beginning of EP1/ Ep3.
    TPM - An ambassador's ship. Symbolism of a more subtle time for the Jedi.
    protocal droid to Gunray: "The ambassador's are Jedi Knights, I believe."

    ROTS - "Jedi fighters". Even unintelligent droids recognise these. The Jedi have become "celebrities" due to the Clone Wars. Symbolism of a corrupted world that only appears controlled on the outside. These ships came from the same Republic as the Star Destroyers.

    When they get back to land:
    Anakin: "Are you coming Master?"
    Obi-Wan: "Oh no, I'm not brave enough for politics. I have to report to the Council. Besides, someone needs to be the poster boy."
    ...
    Obi-Wan: Anakin, lets be fair. Today, you were the hero. And you deserve your glorious day with the politicians."

    This dialogue shows how much things have changed since the subtle opening of TPM.
  18. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    so basically, the political pawn of Sidious is a reflection of the tone of the movies?

    if so i say yes
  19. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    that's a good way to put it.

    The Trade Federation seem to be the bad guys in TPM, but Nute is under direct order of Sidious. Nute Gunray is the droid-army leader.

    The Seperatists seem to be the ROTS bad guys, but of course we know who Grievous takes his orders from. Grievous is the current droid-army leader, but on a much larger scale than in TPM.

    So we make this transition from cowardly businessman to a robotic-armour encased warrior. But both characters are expendable to Sidious.

    My other point is the "Jedi mission vs Sith mission"
    In ROTS Obi-Wan kills Grievous. Not unjustified.
    In ROTS Vader kills Nute Gunray. Nute was pleading for his life.
    Both Nute and Grievous were involved with Sidious in similar ways, yet Obi-Wan's mission seems ten times less evil.
    Obi-Wan doesn't leave Utapau in the same ship he arrived in.
    Vader doesn't leave Mustafar in the same ship he arrived in.

    Sorry for the length of my examples, but this is a hard subject to simplify.
  20. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    no thats fine. its a good thought
  21. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    I know bumping your own threads is probably frowned upon, but this was on pg 18 and I honestly don't think many people read past pg 2 :)
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