~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by darth_nemisis, Jan 24, 2008.

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  1. henchman24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2008
    star 2
    Ask yourself what qualities an organization would have that would make you classify them as a cult, and then ask how any "recognized religions" the world over are really that different...

    Large gatherings of people who chant/pray/dance/gyrate together, who are forced or guilt tripped into donations, who believe nonsensical philosophies that seem absurd to anyone who is not a member of said organization, and probably worst of all function on a "get them while they are young" mentality. I am sure finding other similarities wouldn't be that challenging.

    Above someone mentioned that guy in Clearwater, and his mysterious death. While I don't know the details, I used to live in the Tampa area, and can testify to how rediculously creepy downtown Clearwater is =D.
  2. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Read the thread, and you'll see how they're different.
  3. Vagrant Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 3
    News from Europe

    Four scientologists kidnapped a french ex-scientologists, and held her for 1,5 months in appalling conditions. Italian police rescued her. And this happened in january. Read the story.

    Join Anonymous today!
  4. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    Vagrant, it would take a lot for me to join a petty "organization" like anonymous.
  5. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    But they do raids for the lulz!
  6. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    This entire anonymous vs. Scientology situation seems so incredibly childish.

    I'm not standing up for Scientology's bullying tactics, but I just have to laugh at the mindless anonymous drones. It's like I'm watching a bad B-grade sci-fi flick.
  7. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    [face_laugh]

    I don't think you understand. They have fun doing this. They enjoy it. It is food for their souls.
  8. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    I think they need a new hobby. Fly fishing? Learn to play the piano?

    Something that doesn't make me lawl at them?
  9. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Don't lawl at them. They'll hack you're tf.n account and post goatses! :p
  10. henchman24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2008
    star 2
    Yeah I read the thread....

    Bullying tactics, shady dealings, strange ceremonies and practices, trying to find any way to infiltrate all facets of society to spread influence, demand for monetary support, corrupting the minds of youth...the list goes on.

    Sounds alot like any other religion to me =D
  11. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Name one other religion that uses these tactics and how it uses these tactics.
  12. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    You're painting with an awfully broad brush there.
  13. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    Um apparently you didn't read the entire thread because we already went through this for something like half of it. And IIRC, that line of "reasoning" was totally pwnd.
  14. henchman24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2008
    star 2
    Because you agree with someones line of thinking in opposition to the material similar to my post, doesn't mean we all agree. Its not like someone already "won" this thread.

    When someone here uses a better brush, and can paint a picture of scientology that makes my jaw drop due to there audacity, I will concede my argument that all religions are the same. Up until now all there antics seem very historically middle of the road. If you get caught stealing 5$ from mommies purse, it seems pretty wicked, unless big brother is doing 2 consecutive life sentences for bank robbery/arson/and 3 counts of murder.

    I am not trying to offend any of the anti-scientology folks here. In fairness all the major religions have had alot longer to set the insanity curve. Maybe if you give it enough time, they will transcend the cult status they have now, and become one of the worlds "real" religions. At that point you will get to see some real disturbing stuff thats actually worth being offended about =D
  15. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Here's a question the other guy couldn't answer: Exactly what would that take?
  16. henchman24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2008
    star 2
    I can't even imagine a small time "cult" like scientology can pull it off. Thats my point. The recognized religions of the world have been so destructive, wreckless, and power hungry over the course of human history, everything Scientology does that seems to astound people, just seems same old same old.

    Its not that I support or justify any of the wicked stuff they do because of this, my initial point was that they are no different than any religion. Telling me that they are crooked or deceptive, or a plague on humanity is old hat, thats all I am hearing from there detractors. What religion hasn't been at one point or another.

    ULTIMATELY: There isn't a single post on this thread, either made up or supported with sources, that gives a specific example of an evil Scientology is the cause of, that can't be said of another religion X 2. Show me some new evil, some insanity that they are the creators of, and not the second rate followers of, thats what it will take.

    I know its a bold statement, but no one here will be able to find me that example.

  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Judaism keeps twice as many child slaves in international waters as the CoS does? Really.

    Hinduism charges $1,000,000 for its teachings, as opposed to the CoS' mandatory $500,000? Didn't know that.

    Buddhists have sued one individual 40+ different times in six months, as opposed to the CoS' measly 20+? Fascinating.

    No other religion does even one of those things, but the CoS does them all. That enough for you?

    Face it, when you say, "the recognized religions of the world," what you mean is "Catholicism and maybe Islam." And even then, you have to reach back into the Dark Ages to find a Catholic comparison to what the CoS is doing here and now.
  18. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I must interject here and say that the Catholic religion does not need to resort to nightmarish tactics anymore because they already rest upon the shoulders of the masses. Also they sit upon the top of the proverbial hill, and if there is one thing people liek to see is the fll of the mighty. There is a taint in the priesthood and one too many blackeyes and the whole thing will fall. Besides, there is a much more subtle approach to control as currently being practiced here in the U.S. where Christian groups get elected to schoolboards and try to get the Bible in public schools and blasphemey like ToE out of schools.
  19. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
  20. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Pretty much any powerful organization has black marks on its record, religious or not. The U.S., for example; it got to the top, in part, by subjugating weaker parties like the Native Americans ? often in very nasty ways.

    But, on the other hand, there's nothing we can do now about atrocities committed centuries before we were born. We can oppose cruelty and injustice in the world today, and we absolutely should, because ? well, you know what Edmund Burke said: "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

    It does no good to call out today's Catholic Church for crimes committed by the Spanish Inquisition ? especially since, as LaMent indirectly points out, it's a very different church today. But it does help when people oppose modern-day evils, secular or religious. The CoS is an ideal target for that sort of opposition, for two reasons: One, it's nastier than most other groups today ? only very shady governments and businesses compare ? and two, unlike most of its contemporaries, it hasn't gained the foothold it wants yet in the mainstream establishment; thus, trying to block its criminal practices, if enough people try at once, is a realistic goal.

    Conversely, writing it off as "just another bump in the road" is just another way of turning a blind eye.

    Oh, and here's something interesting: The court testimony of ex-Scientologist Paul Grosswald. Check out the tape they play ? about how German psychologists run every public school in the world, so it's okay for your kid to leave school and join the CoS. Then stick around for Grosswald's description of what powers you learn as you level up.
  21. henchman24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2008
    star 2
    In a past sense yes, the catholic church was vicious, but in modern day affairs evangelicals are far worse. If you think they wouldn't rule the US with an iron fist if they could pull it off then you are silly. In the states the message is spread with television and political bribery, in other countries they use guns, no real difference in the objectives though. And so what if I have 1 or 2 in mind specifically, it still doesn't help your argument, so now CoS is only the same as Chritianity and Islam, well done. Also the dark ages is comment is tough too, one of the bulk reasons the US exists as it does, is because of Christianity. Escaping religious persecution doesn't stop during the age of reason.

    Your specific alignments are impressive as well. I obviously had those 2 religions in mind, nice job going to the other extreme =P Way to line up the most persecuted religion in history with slavery. Then take the one with no God, and the one with too many Gods, and put them against things that arent even crimes.

    Firstly: Of all the religions/cults/governments/institutions of today and yesterday, the entire world over, that do some of the most amazingly effd up things, to make my jaw drop you bring me "kids in international waters"

    Slavery is a shame anywhere it happens, and it happens in all different forms the world over. Raising children from a young age to believe that sacrifing there lives in service to there God is equally as cruel, and it happens every day. Baptising a child before they can stand up or speak, let alone make up there own mind, is a more passive form. You may find this absurd, but how many of the worlds conflicts would be non existent if so many weren't raised in these boxes, to me one is infinitely more damaging.

    The other 2 things are in no way illegal, or cruel, or anything more than excessive.

    every religion leeches. At least CoS doesn't guilt trip you into thinking GOD wants you to do it, nothing wrong with "pay to play".

    We live is a horrible society filled with vultures who will prey on anyone they can, lawsuits are all over for things that offend "PC" minded individuals. Why should the CoS not be a part of this. Of all the crap that is written to defame the CoS, if only 10% of it was false, that would easily justify the number of suits they go through in that span of time.

    Again I would like to retsate that these last 2 things are in no way wrong.

    To the poster above who suggests that a religious institution can't be held resposible for something done in the past, when does that line in the sand occur?? When exactly does the past start? In that sense we can hardly hold the current incarnation of the CoS responsible for the actions of yesterdays CoS =D

    Sorry for the long post

  22. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
  23. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    [image=http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p24/hijacker01/facepalm.gif]
  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Granted. (Well, "worse" than the Inquisition is pushing it, but just barely.) And believe me, I have as much of a bone to pick with evangelicals as you do, for many, many, reasons. In fact, I'll go ahead and agree that the evangelical movement has damaged this country far more than the CoS has. That said, that doesn't give every other group a free pass to do what they want.

    Besides, as much as they'd like to be, evangelicals don't equal Christianity. There are plenty of charitable, fair-minded denominations out there; they're just much less vocal.

    It does if your argument is that the CoS is the same as "any other religion." It's clearly not the same; there are plenty of religions out there that genuinely promote peace and goodwill. If your argument is that the CoS is as bad as the most destructive other religions on the planet, well, that's something else entirely.

    It's really not the same as either, if you look at them in detail. Again, go back and compare the teachings of Jesus to those of Hubbard. Compare Jesus' "Love your enemies" to Hubbard's "Destroy your enemies," or Jesus' "Give all you have" to Hubbard's "MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY."

    Say what you want about the evangelicals, but if they practiced what Jesus actually preached, we'd all be much better off. Or, as Gandhi said, "Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

    Pardon me, but which is more extreme: "All religions are equally reprehensible," or "No, not all of them"?

    You're reading a little too deeply into this, but that aside: Charging people hundreds of thousands of dollars for phony treatments ? including phony AIDS cures ? is a crime, or would be in this case, if Hubbard hadn't craftily started calling his business a religion in order to avoid that pesky accountability-for-fraud thing.

    Second: Clogging up the courts with massive, frivolous lawsuits, the only point of which is to "destroy your opponent utterly," isn't technically illegal, but it's still horrible.

    That's "child slaves in international waters." Forced to scrape the hulls of rat-infested ships and confined in pitch-dark, coffin-sized holds. But way to downplay that.

    "Scientology! At least they're not the only slaveholders!"

    Religion's only one way to indoctrinate a child into serving a country's agenda. Mao didn't need it, Stalin didn't need it, and neither did Kim Jong-Il. Besides, I was baptised as a baby, lost interest in my childhood church, and left when I felt like it. No fuss at all.

    [quote=henchman2
  25. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Someone posts some reasonable arguements, and this is the best rebuttal you have?

    I haven't posted in some time as my central arguement remains unchallenged. Posts like this from LV just highlight that you conceed my point - you don't have a response.

    edit

    Catholic Church is guilty of every point raised above. We've been through this, with examples previously.
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