~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by darth_nemisis, Jan 24, 2008.

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  1. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    "If you call my religion a cult, I'm can't be responsible of my actions" is a blatant threat of violence and is thus inappropriate. This shows that those Scientologists in charge are willing to go to great lengths to stop people from calling Scientology a cult.
  2. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    You are nitpicking. He was angry, he disengaged, there was no violence. Move on.

    I completely agree with KK's position on the subject of church contributions and church discipline. You start criticising an organisation like Scientology for these things and you start down a slippery slope in respect of all other religions. Most old and established religions and institutions are extremely wealthy and that wealth is not necesarily proportionately shared. The main difference I can see between Scientology and say the LDS Church is how the two organisations appear to treat its non-conforming members or members that have been 'excommunicated'. The non-conforming/expelled Scientologists appear to be treated horribly by their ex church (law suits, threats, etc) whilst the excommunicated Mormons that I have seen interviewed don't seem to hold any major bitterness - they are excluded from the Mormon community but LDS spokespeople seem to admit and do not shy away from explaining that LDS doctrine can be harsh on those who don't or can't conform. This position is accepted by those excommunicated and the attitude seems to be "well, it's a shame that I cannot be part of the community but there are certain involiable standards and if I can't meet them then I can't be part of the Mormon community" - a far cry from death threats.
  3. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    Of course I should move on. If I move on, this can just get hidden under the rug.

    An interesting website:

    Why are they dead?
  4. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, it's a conspiracy to sweep such shocking actions of the Church of Scientology under the rug. OMG - that man in that video was just out of control, what a thug. :rolleyes:

    Vivec - do you believe everything you read on the internet?
  5. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    I don't get my information from the internet.
  6. darth_nemisis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2004
    star 6
    He was out of control; he practically stalked John Sweeney. It was, as John Sweeney put it, "creepy".

    Vivec, do you not read my posts?
    :p

    "Vivec - do you believe everything you read on the internet?"

    In this case, he should. These cases are well documented facts, not just made up stories.
  7. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    I guess I missed that :(
  8. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    If that is the case, then why post links to websites and rely on their content to support your crusade against Scientology?

    I take any claim that information posted on a website with a clear agenda "are well documented facts" with a large handful of salt. If there is proof that the Church of Scientology Inc. were found guilty of the crimes attributed to it in those websites then post a copy of the Court Judgment or the sentence or a copy of the court due process that followed the indictments (if any). Something like that would really get my attention and give me something really compelling. Anybody, can post one sided stories with excerpts from various alleged newspapers on the internet and claim it is all true to whip people into a frenzy.

    There's a lot of innuendo and dramatic music in those links but nothing really conclusive. Many people commit suicide or die because they change medication or don't take medication. Many Jehovas Witnesses have died because their faith forbids blood transfusions? Does that make the church killers?

    Again, I'm not defending Scientology, I am not a fan but this psuedo conspiracy stuff you guys are posting just isn't that convincing if you take a a rational and objective view. I'm ready to be convinced but this stuff isn't doing it for me.
  9. darth_nemisis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2004
    star 6
    Read - that is a published article from Paulette Cooper. It is very interesting. It details the torment that Paulette Cooper went through during the 70's and 80's due to Scientology.

    The most shocking part of the story for me was "Jerry Levin" who moved in with Paulette. He always told her to step up on the ledge of the roof because she needed to be brave. He left her after a while and she later found he was actually a Scientologist. She wondered: "And even now I still wonder: why did Jerry want me to go up on that ledge with him? If he had pushed me over, everyone would have simply assumed that in my depressed state of mind, and rather than face a trial, I had committed suicide. Operation Freakout indeed."

    That's scary right there.
  10. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    That is scary. If it's a true story. I would be interested to hear the Scientology version of events, ie, their side of the story before I rushed to judgement. I would also like to see the legal basis upon which the Church of Scientology files lawsuits against such authors. Even morally questionable organisations like the Church of Scientology are entitled to sue for libel if they have grounds that the contents of the publication are false and malicious.

  11. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    The deposition of a former Sea Org member.

    The origin of Hubbard's "MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY." quote. Note how he refers to his followers as "customers."

    Understandable, but you'll have a hard time finding their side of the story. They don't talk about themselves much, especially when criticized. Rather than address criticism, official policy demands that they deflect or ignore it, then go on the attack.

    The Penny Arcade forums have a guy who's apparently a bona fide Scientologist himself, and he claims ? most likely truthfully ? that he's never heard of Operation Freakout or Operation Snow White, and all he's heard about Xenu has come from outside the church. (He'd also never heard of the Free Zone, which is believable too; you think the CoS is going to tell anyone where they can get the same teachings for free?)

    On a side note: As Wise Beard Man correctly points out, only about the top 10% of the church has been taught anything official about Xenu at all; anyone beneath that "isn't ready" to learn about him yet, and would "catch pneumonia and die" if they heard about him accidentally.

    Hear it from the man himself:

    But, more specifically, when they sued Bare-Faced Messiah author Russell Miller, they claimed copyright infringement, both on the excerpts from their writings and on a picture of Hubbard's face. Miller countered that all the materials had been obtained legitimately, and that publishing the excerpts was both legal (Fair Use, or its UK equivalent) and in the public's best interest. The judge agreed, saying:

    "... It is to my mind clear that the public interest in the affairs of the Church and in the life of its founder far outweigh any duty or confidence that could possibly be owed to Mr. Hubbard or the Church ... I have reached the conclusion that [the CoS'] application is both mischievous and misconceived and must be dismissed."

    Note: At no point, to the best of my understanding, did the CoS tell the court that anything in Bare-Faced Messiah was untrue; only that it shouldn't be published.

    Their other cases have run along similar lines. Here's a court doc from one of the cases, if you'd like to see.

    Oh, and about Operation Freakout: Here's a scanned court document, detailing part of the CoS' plan to steal Cooper's (codename "Lovely's") fingerprints and plant them on a fake bomb threat to Henry Kissinger.
  12. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    The court case doc that you scanned seems to be concerned only with a breach of copyright. It appears that the court found in favour of "New Era" and ordered an injunction on the basis of copyright infringement. Whilst I'm no expert in US copyright law there appears to be nothing controversial in the court's conclusion.

    The second scanned doc on "Operation Freakout" appears to be some file note used in evidence. According to Cooper's article the case never went to trial because the people invloved refused to talk (understandably).

    I have no doubt that people who are members of the Church of Scientology have done illegal and morally questionable things but I'm not sure I believe everything that has been presented in this thread to date.
  13. Ed_Abbey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2008
    star 4
    I tend to agree with "LostOnHoth". The various accusations in this thread are almost too fantastic to be believed sometimes. Could it really be that bad?
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Some of the accusations in here are fairly well documented. For example, the information regarding "Operation Freakout" came from documents seized by the US government in a raid over "Operation Snow White" (which led to the conviction of several officials of the Church of Scientology, including Hubbard's wife, and naming Hubbard himself as an unindicted co-conspirator).

    Other accusations are not as well documented.

    Kimball Kinnison
  15. Ed_Abbey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah, I realize that Freakout is well documented. I guess a lot of these tales just have such a fantastic quality that it leaves me a little incredulous. Stranger things have happened, though, I guess. :p
  16. darth_nemisis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2004
    star 6
    http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/19/Northpinellas/Scourge_of_Scientolog.shtml

    How strange...another mysterious death of a Scientology critic in Clearwater.

    Anybody remember this man from [link=]this[/link] video, the BBC story called Scientology and Me...? This is a horrible tragedy...
  17. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Hmm, car asphyxiation. That's how Hubbard's son Quentin died.
  18. LordSilvertouch Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2003
    star 4
    I'll agree that they are indeed fantastic in nature, but that isn't really an argument to prove they're false.
  19. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    QFT!
  20. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Former Scientologists, including the niece of chief Scientologist David MisCavidge, tell their stories here.

    One more quote from Hubbard for now:

  21. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    CoS pounces on the housing crisis

    A Church of Scientology front, called FAS, solicits money from desperate homeowners, promising to stave off foreclosure on the condition that they (A) pay them $1400 up front, and (B) never contact their lenders. Led by OTVII Scientologist Herb Zerden, FAS has so far bilked these homeowners out of $13 million, leaving them broke and homeless as they take the money and run.

    The Church of Scientology. No matter how bad you think it is, it's worse.
  22. Vagrant Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 3
  23. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
  24. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    [face_laugh]

    The article about the Marcab Confederacy is hilarious!
  25. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I really had no desire to go threw 9 pages reading every message, so I apologize if this has already been brought up. But earlier last week I believe, an unknown white harmless powder was sent to many churches of Scientology all over Northern American.

    Maybe just sending out a message to them. Plus I believe theres a second video titled message to scientology #2 somewhere on youtube. I can't find it at the moment, so I couldn't post the link even if we were allowed.

    My view on scientology is that it is just a cult that preys on the weakminded and wealthy. Though they have the right to believe that they wish, I think it's purely ridiculous. No offense to any potential or current scientologists on this forum.
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