ST The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

I don’t think they were going to with a completely different story to accomodate Luke. They needed him in the story they were telling.

 

The ONLY fault Lucas has in this is that he sold to Disney and trusted his friend Kathleen to make his story a reality.

Then they should have used Lucas' story. He new what to do with Luke. Too bad these other professionals didn't. Rian did a terrible job of rationalizing why Luke was on the island. It doesn't even line up with JJ's idea.

Well, their story is a mess and is what they chose to tell over Lucas' actual story for the ST.

 

Perhaps GL would have created a better trilogy. He’s an amazing ideas guy. Although I’m personally not fond of his scriptwriting or directing.

However, they appear to be going for the same concepts Lucas intended. At least, that’s what I’ve gotten from PH’s and KK’s comments, and from what GL has himself said.

 

Lucas' same concepts? He flat out said that they threw his stories away in order to make their own. He called them white slavers. Mark said he wished they made Lucas' ST. Pretty sure we've moved on to different concepts.

 

“Stories” =/= “concepts.” Not synonyms.

And unless someone faked various GL interviews...yes, they’re using his concepts. Or by a bizarre coincidence there are major ST concepts that magically line up with what GL has said he envisioned.

Which doesn’t mean the ST is awesome or what GL wanted. At all. It simply means that they’re using his concepts.

 

You're right, my mistake

"Johnson says he talked extensively with the Lucasfilm story group and Kathleen Kennedy about the bold move to kill Luke.

"It was not like I wrote the script and dropped it on their desk. It was very important to me that I was collaborating with the folks at Lucasfilm from the word go,” he said. “I moved to San Francisco for a few months and would go in a few times a week to keep them up to date, spewing my ideas out, especially the big ones"

 

Which concepts do you think they are using?

 

I think a lot of key elements are used. The issue is that they are arbitrarily using them, out of order, this even if the idea is the same it will not serve entirely the same purpose. Lucas always has a reason for the way he structures things.

 

The importance of passing on what one has learned, and the wisdom required to tell right from wrong, and making moral choices.

More specifically, a girl who grew up without her parents (surrogate family, in Lucas’s treatment) going to find and train with a broken Luke Skywalker, whose Jedi temple and students had been destroyed, who recovers as a result.

 

I don't see much passing on what you have learned. The FO/resistance fight doesn't have any moral ambiguity or wisdom needed to tell right from wrong. Those concepts were part of Lucas treatment that was thrown out. heck, RO had actual ambiguity and moral choices. They certainly don't involve Lucas' ideas about following a 60 year old Luke, jedi knighthood, justice, and rebuilding the republic. They literally destroyed it.

The girl who grew up and found a broken Luke whose temple and students were destroyed was from a whole different story developed after they threw out Lucas' original ideas.

 

May just be the "teeth gnasher" in me, but I found the bolded to be a very accurate description of the writing in TLJ.

 

Actually GL said in 2015 they ignored the treatments he turned over and went another way. Mark Hamill said the same thing just last month before the film opened.

PH ... I am choosing my words carefully ... said they used some of GL's ideas. Supposedly, GL's stories centered on two young protagonists -- one male and one female -- and a Jedi Hunter/Dark Side fanboy. Those characters obviously became Rey, Finn and Kylo Ren. Ren later became a Solo. That wasn't GL's idea. That was the Disney story group's idea.

As I have said before, think PH is embellishing, exaggerating or not being truthful about GL's role in the story. Not ONE WORD (that I am aware of) was said about following GL's ideas for TFA when it almost made a billion dollars and scored 88 percent on RT. Fast-forward 2 years, TLJ is going to make $300 million less than TFA, and it is at 49 percent on RT, and a significant portion of the fanbase is upset about Luke's character in this film, and PH is out there saying this part of the story from TLJ was George Lucas' idea?

Sorry; I can smell that from here. Spin. Damage control. And before someone says 'Why do you need to do damage control on a film that made $600 million?' Well, that may be, but a significant number of us are upset, and they know it.

So yeah, give me PH's word and a $1 and I'll go buy a can of soda with it. He's doing his job.

 

I think we’re talking past each other...I’m not saying they’re using his story. I’m not saying they’re using his treatments.

Nor am I or anyone saying that they used all or most of GL’s ideas.

 

I gotcha. What are your thoughts about what I said about PH? I don't want to sound like a looney conspiracy theorist, but it is just SO odd to me that all of a sudden they are saying they used GL's ideas when something unpopular happens. PH is a social media PR guy. I mean, I know some people treat him like he is a middleman or an oracle, but he isn't. He tells us what Disney wants us to hear. It's his job. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is the 100 percent 'truth'.

If I am right, he's also taking a big risk that GL himself hasn't responded with his version.

 

Yeah, PH is all PR and spin control. They made it clear that they were making their own story and RJ said he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted. Now they invoke GL to take heat off of Rian. Too bad for them that George and Mark have both spoken out.

 

They’ve been talking for years about using GL’s stuff. I think part of the reason why it’s suddenly gaining attention is that the TLJ art book reveals that they used more GL ideas than we were previously aware of.

I do agree, however, with your skepticism regarding how far we can trust the literal truth of how LFL/the directors have characterized the development process.

 

GL may have had the idea that Luke was in exile, but the why and how is huge, and as we've discussed here, TFA strongly hints that Luke was doing more in exile than waiting to die and end the Jedi Order. I think JJ left the ending ambiguous enough to all RJ freedom to do what he wanted, but it doesn't exactly mesh perfectly either, and the floating rock thing being is the smoking gun that this is NOT what JJ had in mind, or GL by extension.

 

and keep in mind that this isn't what GL originally intended. This came about after they threw out his ideas and started from scratch with Arndt.

 

I do think there was an important direction change RJ decided on that JJ had originally intended. But I think it had more to do with the order of things.

 

T-R-, that's exactly the way I understand it to be. The only rough concepts I know of that they used are the things I mentioned; the young protagonists and the Jedi Hunter, and we know from the Art of TFA book that they went through all kinds of idea about who and what the Jedi Hunter was.

I think it is important to realize that one of the mistakes -- my opinion that it was a mistake -- that Disney has consistently made is coming up with an end result and then working back from it. For example, again, looking at the Art of TFA book, it is pretty clear they wanted a scene with Vader's helmet.

There's one illustration of the Jedi Hunter holding Vader's helmet, and another of Luke himself holding it. It was like 'We are going to get a shot like this into the film and worry about who is looking at it/talking to the helmet later'. That's not a great way to construct a film, IMO, and that's to me is the root problem for TLJ.

 

Based on the information we are given--Luke turning in his saber any chance he can and surrounding himself by nuns--we all can assume Luke ran his jedi order like a paddle wacking church?

 

And I remember Pablo just saying GL idea was about a girl (Kira) who wanted to be a jedi. Also he said Kylo Ren, KoR etc was JJ Abrams & Kasdan idea (they had the idea of a "jedi killer" who in some point became Ben Solo). Han's death was JJ Abrams idea, Kasdan thought Han could end alive and be with Leia

 

I think them using some very basic concepts doesn`t mean much anymore since it`s obviously a wildly different story in execution. And they weren`t beholden to even the concepts in the first place. They could have gone in a completely different direction. So this is on Disney/Lucasfilm all the way.

That they picked a direction I find to be meh (even if it was roughly a general direction Lucas might have gone, too) AND executed it in the worst way possible in TLJ doesn`t make things better. Luke`s reason for being on the island/in exile? Worst explanation possible IMO. No greater purpose or something strategic/heroic, no, it is cowardly whining with the ever unlogical "oh, I`m the problem, not the actual bad guys running around". Miss me with that "justification", movie.

The way the relationship with Rey is, namely non-existant? Worst way possible. I mean, they didn`t even develop anything after starting out on rather bad terms.

How Luke is portrayed in his exile? We have the cringeworthy milking scene for comedy? Scare factor? Outright insanity? We have Luke ultimately losing a skirmish to newbie Rey. Fantastic. Yoda was a muppet and that would never have happened.

The supposed "redemption"? A rather un-epic scene of force projection, saving 20 or so people after which Luke dies anyway and during which he does nothing but trade a few barbs with Kylo and dodges a lightsaber blade. Letdown.

Then RJ, according to his own interviews, tacks on a scene that is supposed to give it a bit more scale where Luke is now an "inspiration". Just the fake legend, though. It`s fine if the man himself is destroyed. Oh, and he is supposed to have gone with peace and purpose. Luke in the OT never had such a low bar for himself that he would have thought this little stunt on Crait was a suitable redemption and therefore he could go in peace.

That`s kinda like those people who never really do anything for the longest time and then expect accolades and outpourings of sympathy when they finally, for once, make a little effort. After six years of abandoning the galaxy, you don`t get a cookie for finally getting over yourself for five minutes. It is not heroic or inspiring or a sign of character strength to me. Moving on from failure is all well and good but it is super-lazy for me to consider the first attempt all that was needed. Put some actualy work into it and then we`re talking.

 

I can’t imagine George Lucas being very happy about the way Luke was treated, or his dying after seeing nothing but a few moments of fake action before we even get to IX. I could be wrong, but I doubt he’s pleased.

If the arc is SW is supposed to be the younger generation saving the previous, TLJ failed twice. Once, in Luke repeating the same mistakes as his father and again, in Rey having no real role in bringing Luke back around.

Luke failed both Ben and Rey in this preposterous story.

 

This is a more broad-level concern that I've been thinking about lately, regarding why they should have handled Luke's story with far far far more consideration:

Music. More particularly, leitmotifs (character themes).

Consider Leia's leitmotif.
Consider Palpatine's.
Consider Yoda's.
Consider Rey's.
Consider Luke's.

All excellent pieces.

Which of those is the most iconic? The most enduring? Well, the answer is simple: Luke's. Its the same leitmotif that isn't just the music for a single character (in fact, its used for several), its the music that is used to represent the Force itself. That single thought should have been going through RJ's head over and over as he wrote this movie.