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Discussion TLJ The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by -LordSkywalker-, Jan 12, 2018.

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  1. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 18, 2017
    Now I do believe that this makes what Obi Wan and Yoda did at first worse. Because things were in shambles and a new Empire had a death grip on the galaxy. And all the people who formed a rebellion and fought for the rebellion risked their lifes every day, all without special force powers. But the superheroes sit this one out because "hey, too dangerous". Fan-freaking-tastic. Urgh. I find that more damning in its own way. If everyone thought like that, noone would have ever joined the rebellion.

    On the other hand, Luke isn`t far behind. He leaves the galaxy when things aren`t bad yet, true. And apparently the FO only really attacked like yesterday or the day before as TFA and TLJ played out timeline-wise. But that is no excuse, he knowingly left two powerful darksiders out there and the galaxy at their mercy. Lo and behold what happened. Five planets destroyed.

    Now I can`t put that all on him because the incompetent New Republic has to share some of the blame. It was their duty to assess and take on any military threat (and suss out corruption in their own ranks while they were at it). But it was Luke`s duty to take on the dark side force users. Period. You can sit on an island, or on a desert or on a swamp AFTER there is balance to the best of your knowledge. And not come away with lazy justifications like "oh, maybe someone better will come along".

    That`s a good point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  2. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Obi Wan and Yoda realized that it would be counter-productive to fight. They would have died, and that would have been it. And given that there was a long-term goal (Luke being "the new hope") biding their time made sense. They had foresight basically.

    Luke, literally just ran off because he felt bad, and fully intended to stay away for good.
     
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  3. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
  4. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 18, 2017
    I would allow this for one of them IF Obi Wan had bothered to train Luke from childhood on. Those 19 years on Tattooine could have been better spent.

    Yoda, however, he could have done more than just hiding in a swamp. Like I said I don`t view "but I would have been killed" as a valid excuse. Any rebel ever had to face the fact that on capture, they would have been killed. Probably tortured and then killed. And they were asked to fight and risk their life on dangeous missions without any superpowers. To me, that`s like if the Avengers had said "oh well, alien invasion, nah, let the Police handle it". I would have been like: Are you kidding me?

    Don`t get me wrong, I have no excuses for what Luke did either. But I don`t give Yoda and Obi Wan a quarter just the same. Giving up in the face of tyranny is a no-go for me.
     
  5. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    I agree.

    And if in 9 they show that she is training people to become a jedi without getting trained herself, i would absolutely hate it.

    She hasnt earned her jedi title at all but she will create a new jedi order.
    How is that believable?

    Luke didnt start training people until a decade after ROTJ.

    But Rey can do it only after discovering about the force for a week.
    What a joke.
     
  6. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2002
    If some of the ST dynamics were at work in the OT it actually could have been pretty interesting.

    If Luke's goal wasn't just to learn from Yoda but to get him to confront the Emperor one final time and get back into the fight that could have been compelling (had the CG been possible to allow it). Obi-Wan faced Vader one last time after besting him in ROTS to help push Luke forward and to remind Vader of the power of the Light side. If Luke had initially thought he'd have no chance facing Vader and the Emperor and needed Yoda's help given the strength of not only Vader but also the Emperor himself it would have been logical. And if Yoda had not wanted to come and had been dealing with some of the same issues Luke had been dealing with but with regard to the fall of the Jedi temple it also would have been more logical and Luke could have helped him overcome that.

    Instead, he just lived out his days at a place that lacks the significance of Ahch-To for no reasons he made clear in the OT.
     
  7. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016
    Obi Wan couldn't train Luke on Tattoine it would have awoken the Emperor to his prescience and they'd been killed and hunted by Vader. He needed to protect him until the time was right to make a move. There is ZERO comparison with coward Jake Skywalker and Obi/Yoda in ANH.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  8. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Also Owen Lars was telling Obi Wan to stay away, and doing his best to keep Luke away from him.
     
  9. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 27, 2017
    This is all easy enough to explain: They both are pining their hopes on one of the Skywalker kids. They also both are of the opinion that taking Anakin from his family early on contributed greatly to his fall to the Dark Side. Best to let them live a full adolescence and become, well, relatively normal young adults.

    Now, if you want to be particularly cynical, it was quite serendipitous that, for both children, their foster families were murdered by the Empire right around the same time - and right around the time that Kenobi and Yoda decided to start training a new Jedi.
     
  10. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    The more i watch TFA and TLJ now, the more i believe that Kylo is the main character of ST not Rey.

    This is his story bcoz Rey doesnt have a story or struggles or conflicts at all.

    Everything regarding Rey has become about Kylo.


    Why is Rey so powerful? Bcoz of Kylo.

    How did she defeat Kylo? Bcoz she downloaded force and tricks from Kylo.

    Not to mention the force literally doing everything for Rey bcoz of Kylo.

    She is force's champian against Kylo.

    She doesnt need to learn anything, the force will do her work. Why?

    Bcoz - darkness rises and light to meet it.

    I mean lets forget about Anakin who was literally born from the force but still struggled, failed and ultimately lost everything.

    And Luke who was the chosen one's son who struggled to become a jedi, lost every now and then, but after years started a jedi order and still ended up losing everything.

    But not Rey.
    She will make everything right.
     
  11. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    One question I have is if the ST is more like Star Wars Rebels with the villains. The villains in Star Wars Rebels aren't a challenge for the main group of heroes. Vader was the only exception and it's because although he can't be allowed to kill the main characters, he can't really still be in character if they can defeat him in the way they can defeat all the other villains. And by all the other villains, I really do mean ALL of them.

    The ST might actually go all three movies without the villains being significant challenges.
     
  12. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    About Yoda and Obi-wan: They hiding in Tatooine and Dagobah isn't a problem for the OT, because we didn't know how long they have been hiding... for all we knew they kept fighting the Empire for fifteen more years and saw their friends and allies slaughtered time after time until they were cornered and and had to hide...

    The way the PT handled their exile is problematic...GL clearly shows that they decided to hide from day one...

    I guess they at least have the excuse of having the ability of peeking at the future. I think it was implied that Yoda took all those illogical decisions (hiding in Dagobah, not fighting the Empire, not training Luke...) because he had some revelation...

    The character of Mara Jade would mean nothing... In Legends she was a Dark Sider who was redeemed by Luke and became the love of his life and the mother of his children... In the ST she would be just some chick who had a fling with Luke before he became Fail Old Grumpypants...

    And who is Captain Phasma? I don't remember that character... Was she part of the background maybe?

    Man, Lucasfilm were ridiculous: "We have created the first great female SW villain; she's called Captain Phasma, she appears like five minutes on screen, speaks like two one-liners, never shows her face, and is punked in an undignified way in every movie..." seriously, even the nameles baton-using stormtrooper who fought Finn in TFA looked more badass than her...

    And I don't want to even remember Lupita Nyong'o... "we are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PROGRESSIVE! We a have allowed a black chick to give her voice to a small orange alien who is a tertiary character that appears for a few minutes in each movie! that must count at least like, having another 10% of a black character on screen!"
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  13. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016
    Lupita Nyong Would have been great replacing Laura Dern in the purple haired Holdo role except make her character actually make sense this time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  14. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Looks like uncle Owen was right in the end [face_laugh]
     
  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2002
    Earlier in this thread some of you said I could post here to discuss aspects of Luke's journey even though this is the teeth gnashers thread. I've stayed out though as we're supposed to to because it's really more for you all to discuss what you hate about Luke's journey.

    If you are interested in discussing an aspect of Star Wars that I personally find fascinating that I believe connects through all 3 Star Wars trilogies I've posted a theme exploration discussion topic on the Saga Forum board related to one of the themes I think isn't discussed as often as others which has underpinned significant aspects of all 3 trilogies.

    If the topic is of interest to some of you -- and there's some opportunity to discuss different aspects of Luke in this regard -- I'd love to chat more about it there.

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...t-weakness-of-the-mind-receiving-it.50048337/
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  16. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    That is more or less expected for a TV show with multiple episodes each Season, especially if you have semi-recurring villains. Of course the heroes must prevail.

    For movies, it`s a whole different ballgame. A hero`s journey is significantly made better if they are pitted against a strong villain. In the OT Vader was awesome. In the PT Sidious was awesome. Both in different ways but they made for strong and interesting villains the heroes legitimately struggled against. If Luke had won every fight with ease, it would have been a super-boring journey.

    Even for Superman movies you introduce either kryptonite or other kryptonians because noone wants to watch a blandly perfect character who can always win everything and defeat everyone even if the character is the good guy and the others are the villains. Just some personal ponderings don`t make for relatable struggles.

    In TESB Luke faced a significant setback in losing to Vader like he did. If he had defeated Vader with ease and Vader had then told him "I`m your father", it would still be shocking but Luke`s struggle loses a lot of its appeal. Rey acknowledging her parents were nobodies in between winning a fight and flying in the save the say with a "yeehaw" before easily performing quite impressive force feats wasn`t really much of a gut punch. Like, wow, it stopped her winning streak for 0.5 seconds, how crushing. Same after the cave of whateverness. If that is what counts for "struggles" these days, that is laughable. The last Thor movie was a flat-out comedy and that character had more serious struggles, both emotionally and physically.

    It makes it all the more galling that Luke had to lose everything in order for someone who is already perfect to be even more perfect in the narrative and win the prize of "most likely to be saviour of the Jedi".

    If they didn`t want to continue the Skywalker Saga, fine, but there was really no need to utterly destroy the Skywalkers, smash everything good from the family name into bits, leave only the bad parts and hand everything worthwhile to someone unrelated. Why did they insist on a direct continuation of episode 1-6 then and of the Skywalker saga? Either don `t continue with them at all - and let them rest in peace - or give them a respectful finish with episodes 7-9 and then start with something new.

    I don`t like Kylo as a character, he is interesting but I don`t like him, however the handling of the OT characters has made me contrary enough to feel compelled in wanting to see him win and for evil to triumph. I most certainly don`t want a new Jedi Order if Luke doesn`t have a really tangible hand in creating it.
     
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  17. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Heck even Tarkin felt like a threat to the heroes in ANH. He comes within a hair's breath of wiping them all out and fails only due to his own overconfidence and Luke's Force Powers (which he didn't know about).
     
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  18. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 7, 2001
    Very good post, Alliyah! I especially agree about two things: 1) That it is REALLY galling/ annoying that Luke’s character was pretty much destroyed, and he was brought so low, and everything was taken away from him in order that Miss Perfect Rey could look even better and become both the ultimate savior of the galaxy and the one gifted with what should have been Luke’s legacy of restoring the Jedi order. Oh, and one more thing: she will also be the random girl who will fix all of the messes caused by the skywalker family.

    But she never even earned all of those accomplishments. They were just given to her by the filmmakers. She didn’t struggle; she didn’t make mistakes; she wasn’t tested; she didn’t fail at anything; she didn’t learn or grow or change in any way. She is just Miss Perfect who can do anything the plot needs her to do, whether it involves the Force, piloting, languages, mechanics, gunnery, melee fighting; whatever. You name it; she can do it. And I HATE characters like that! I can’t relate to characters who have no flaws and can do absolutely everything well and without learning how to do it. To have her be the Luke replacement is beyond maddening, especially when Luke was trampled and then shoved under the bus to do it.

    2)If they wanted to be done with the skywalkers, which we now know that they do( which to me seems both stupid and short-sighted, as the skywalker family story told within the larger universe of the Star Wars universe was one of the main things that made Star wars unique and compelling in the first place) then they simply shouldn’t have included the skywalkers in this trilogy. Let it be known that the story would take place a hundred years in the future when Luke, Han, and leia were gone. Instead, all they have done by including these iconic characters in this sequel trilogy was give them all miserable lives and destroy their accomplishments, and take away any legacies they may have had, both the Jedi legacy and the new Republic legacy. In Luke’s case, there was also total disrespect for the character. They completely trashed Luke and disgraced him in every way possible, and killed him off when it wasn’t even necessary to do so, as he hadn’t completed his job of training Rey, or the task that yoda commissioned him to do : rebuild the Jedi order by passing on what he had learned.

    So, yes, I agree. Either the story of Luke, Han, and leia should have been respectfully concluded in this sequel trilogy and then the filmmakers could have gone off in a new direction, or Han, Luke, and leia shouldn’t have been included at all, and they should have gone forward in the timeline where the lives of the OT 3 wouldn’t have been impacted at all. They then could have enjoyed a happy ending and lasting legacies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  19. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 17, 2013
    So JJ couldn’t find a way in TFA that Luke wouldn’t overshadow the new cast, and that Han wouldn’t feel like luggage.

    Is it really this difficult to find a proper way to utilize Luke Skywalker and Han Solo? I am starting to these these folks Disney brought in aren’t nearly as creative as we’ve been led to believe.

    Han had a purpose in TFA: he discovered Rey, got his ship back, reunited with Leia, and helped destroy Starkiller Base. If Han had walked away from Kylo, gotten in the MF and blown up ships before returning home to Leia, he had PLENTY of reason to be in the film. He wouldn’t have been baggage at all.

    Does Han playing a role in Kylo’s further descent into darkness enhance that role? It did ... until TLJ, when Kylo still has enough light in him to not fire at Leia, and to not kill Rey, rather choosing to kill Snoke, the very man for whom he killed his own father for days earlier.

    Someone want to explain to me how well conceived this mess was again?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  20. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 31, 2014
  21. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    I completely agree with you, SaintKenobi. It certainly SHOULDN’T be difficult. If even you and I can think of worthy roles for them, then certainly someone who is a professional and probably gets paid millions to write for a Star Wars film, should be able to come up lots more useful roles for them.

    Luke, in particular, should have been EASY! He was the only Jedi in the entire galaxy. Since the Jedi, the force, and lightsabers are unique to Star Wars, there should have been TONS of things that Luke could do. And I don’t agree with the premise that they couldn’t let Luke do anything major in TFA because he would have taken some of the focus off of Rey. I mean, so what? Rey may be the main character, (and after TLJ, I would argue that Kylo, not Rey, is actually the main character), but she’s not the only character. Other characters can have roles too. She’s not the only character in the film.

    In ANH, Ben Kenobi was an impressive character. He was the one who could use the force in cool ways. He came to Luke’s rescue several times in that film. Did that make us like Luke less? Did it make us care about Luke less? Did it mean that Luke didn’t get to do some equally cool and impressive things? No, it did not.

    So too, Luke should have been able to BE a Jedi in TFA, even if it meant that he did something rather impressive. That doesn’t mean that audiences wouldn’t have been able to appreciate Rey too and enjoy her character doing heroic things. You don’t need to have just one heroic character in each film. There can be many.

    As I have said, if Rey is completely eclipsed by Luke or any other character, than she wasn’t well conceived or planned in the first place. She isn’t a strong enough character to cover a trilogy or a franchise in that case and they should have gone back to square one in developing the character.

    And if they didn’t want Luke to do any “action sequences”, then they could have had him start to train Rey already in TFA. Luke was the only Jedi master in that galaxy too. He was unique. USE him in that unique capacity; don’t waste this potential for a fantastic story! I even wish that they wouldn’t have killed off Luke’s Jedi and had allowed him to be successful at that, even if he lost Kylo to the dark.

    But instead of giving Luke a role in TFA, they just gave him a wordless cameo. So, in a Star Wars film, in which the Jedi and the force are unique, we had no Jedi at all.

    Going off on a tangent here: Speaking of that cameo, that spectacle of an ending in a place so difficult to physically get to, led us all to believe that something amazing; something profound; something magical; something galaxy and story changing was about to take place on that island. After waiting over thirty years to see Luke Skywalker in a Star Wars film again, it seemed like we were going to be in for a thrilling, satisfying reunion with the character of Luke Skywalker.

    Alas, the terrible joke was on all of us as soon as Luke tossed that lightsaber over his shoulder at the beginning of TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  22. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Well Rian also said that he didn't have Finn and Poe interact more because they "got along too well" and he couldn't think of ways to give them "conflict," and that he didn't do more with Snoke because he couldn't think of any ways to make his backstory "relevant." So yeah sensing a pattern here.
     
  23. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    You know ... It is so easy for people to say, as this narrator says here, ‘it is only a movie’.

    I can say that, because I had wonderful childhood, parents who loved me, great friends and a spiritual life. Even with all these blessings, Luke Skywalker meant something to me. I can only imagine what he must have meant to kids who weren’t loved, who were afraid of their parents, who went to bed hungry, who had nothing to believe in and no one to look up to.

    I have always said that big, mega-successful people, be they politicans, musicians, filmmakers, etc., should always have one person in the room who is free to speak freely. A ‘Debbie Downer’ if you will. It is that person’s job to provide the negative spin, the worst-case scenario, to speak truth when everyone else is being a sycophant and congratulating each other.

    Someone, after RJ presented this script to the creative team, should have been there in the next meeting to say ‘Folks, let me explain what you are going if you greenlight this script ...’ and then basically say what this guy said in this clip.

    If I’ve said it once in the last 8 weeks, I’ve said it 100 times: I don’t know what they were thinking. You paid $4 billion for something you fundamentally don’t understand.
     
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  24. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 7, 2001
    Great post, @SaintKenobi1322 !

    Yes, they paid four billion for something they didn’t understand, or, at least, didn’t care about, and then proceeded to ruin it and run it into the ground. What they did was heartbreaking for many.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  25. HandofSkywalker86

    HandofSkywalker86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Eh, they understood that it'd make them tons and tons of money no matter the quality of product they put out. That's all that really matters to corporations.
     
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