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Reviews Books The JC Lit Reviews Special: EPISODE III - REVENGE OF THE SITH (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by lightsaber_wielder, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    If a book called Padme a strumpet that would be like the greatest EU moment ever.
     
  2. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
  3. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    No...you know what? I still hate it. It's an Othello ripoff. Stover made Padme's reasons for loving Anakin EXACTLY the same as Desdemona's. Desdemona fell in love with Anakin because she felt bad for his past as a slave, and because she *admired* his heroism. Well, in the novel Padme admired Anakin's heroism a lot, and that was the reason why she wouldn't let the marriage become public knowledge. And apparently, she wanted to be the perfect wife for Anakin---just like Desdemona. I'm sorry, but the problem with this book is that the characters are not the personalities we saw in the movie, but caricatures. I just can't like it because of that. :( It doesn't matter how fascinating the writing style or plot is. Characterizations are the most important to me, but Stover made Anakin and Padme too much like Othello and Desdemona. He also made Obi Wan a Gary Stu. But I'll stop it now...I'm just so angry, and so upset at how the love story was portrayed in that book.
     
  4. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    I really can't disagree more with Obi-Wan being portrayed as a "Gary Stu" (christ, these forums have made me loathe that term). I simply see Obi-Wan as portrayed as competent, yet also a flawed and somewhat shortsighted man. He's witty, and he's a very formidable fighter, but nowhere is he shown to be flawless, or to be unbeatable in any regard. In fact, Anakin is shown to be much more devastating in the novel, particularly in the first part of the book.

    The problem with the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu thing is that it lacks a set definition, and can get so ridiculous that it gets to the point where characters who simply succeed in any way are labeled Mary Sues. I have never seen this more with Star Wars fans... I guess it's because the characters are portrayed by so many different people, it's hard to keep their level of competence straight. When I watch A New Hope, in the scene where Obi-Wan briefly reminisces about the Clone Wars, I don't picture an average warrior. I picture a highly effective, intelligent General, which I believe Stover offers.

    As for Anakin and Padme, I agree that Anakin was a bit psychopathic at times, but compare his behavior in that part with his behavior in the first part of the book. He's different from the adventuring, TCW-like character. In the novel at least, Anakin had not been sleeping, not been eating, and if he tried to sleep, he would see visions of his wife dying... that would be enough to drive even the strongest of men crazy. Yes, none of that was seen in the movie, but I do think it makes his fall more logical. You also have to consider that something has likely happened to his Padawan, Ahsoka, by this point. Whether she's dead, or missing, or exiled, I'm sure it did something to him. Even the Anakin we see in Episode 3 is a much darker Anakin than the one we see in TCW.
     
  5. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Yeah, yeah...but what really made me think Obi Wan was a Gary Stu is how he interacted with Padme.

    He was described as "compassionate" whereas Anakin was described as "moody." Anakin's darker relationship with Padme and Padme's much more good relationship with Obi Wan in the book made it seem like Stover was making Anakin seem bad to show how wonderful Obi Wan was. It reminded me of how Jacob Black in Twilight started forcing Bella to kiss her and grew controlling in Eclipse, whereas Edward "loosened up" if you will. In that book, the author changed Jacob from a good hearted and humorous guy to controlling to show how wondeful Edward and Bella were. I know that isn't what Stover intended, but that's how it seemed to me.

    Well, I disagree about Anakin seeming psychopathic. That's a tossed around term. He felt remorse for his actions, and knew right from wrong(at least, before he turned to the Dark Side). In the movie, which is more canon than the book, he felt remorse for killing those Sepratists.

    But if you are saying that he was psychopathic in their relationship...dear God. I guess you really hate the love story. And no offense if you don't hate it, but I think calling Anakin "psychopathic" is very offensive.

    But still, Stover's Anakin was still quite dark. I felt confused, because he actually had evil thoughts. The Anakin from R.A. Salvatore's novelization may have still killed the Tusken Raiders, but he didn't think about "squashing Padme like a bug." See what I mean? It's Othello, all over again. The book didn't tell me much about the characters in the film, with the exception of Obi Wan talking about Anakin's loyalty. It instead showed me alternate characterizations.

    Again, one of my biggest problems with the book is the Othello subplot. Worse yet, it's not even like a subplot. Anakin was not merely jealous in the book. His personality was more like Othello's, and Padme's reasons for loving Anakin were similar to Desdemona's.

    And while Anakin was heroic in the beginning of the book, it seems as if Anakin's goodness is highly related to him being Obi Wan's friend. Anakin is not as loving with Padme as he was in the movie, but in the book he was a little more friendly towards Obi Wan. If I were an Anakin/Obi Wan fan, I'd like this, but since I'm ultimately an Anakin/Padme fan, I'm sad about how Stover portrayed the love story.

    I mean, R.A. Salvatore, even though he isn't as good as Patrica Wrede, was fair to Anakin/Padme. He gave Anakin good reasons for loving Padme---in that book, Anakin thought that he loved Padme for her courage, determination, and generosity because she was pained by having to tell her family about the assassination attempts. You could really tell that Anakin/Padme loved each other in that book.

    Now that I think about it, I think the way Stover, and even Troy Denning who had Mary Jade yap about how creepy Anakin was with Padme, and had Luke think "he was scared for the woman(Padme)" after she interacted with Anakin is highly related to GL's decision to make Anakin Force-choke Padme. Before the spoilers about the Force choke were leaked, Anakin and Padme were written as a genuinely loving couple. But because of the horrible Force choke, Anakin/Padme's relationship is getting demonized.

    But see...as I was saying, almost all the flawed parts of characterizations are due to the Othello element. Sadly, some of the scenes between Anakin/Padme were straight out of Othello. In the movie, Desdemona was shown putting a finger on Otehllo's mouth on the movie cover, just like Padme did in one of Anakin's memories of her.

    And then there was a pic with Othello putting his finger on Desdemona's mouth, just like Anakin did to Padme when he found out she was pregnant in the book. And there was a pic which showed Othello making a angry expression with his arms placed on the top of Desdemona's shoulders, just like Anakin did in the reunion scene.

    The thing I don't understand is why people don't like the ROTS junior novelization. I liked the way Anakin/Padme's relationship was portrayed in that book, a
     
  6. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Given that the entire ROTS novel was line-edited by Mr. Lucas, it's not an alternate characterization.


    Anyway; I love this novel; it takes the limitations of film and tosses them aside with beautifully lyrical prose. It's less a novel and more an epic poem in how it works, especially with composition; as an example, read the hardcover edition next to the paperback. Stover uses the layout to exceptional effect; character's internal monologues actually seem like thought as opposed to exposition. There's a deep, thick layer of doom overarching from almost the first paragraph, and it's all beautifully bittersweet; you know that the heroes are going to lose, but as the novel says, they've saved their best for last.
     
  7. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    I know...but I don't know if I will ever get over the Othello subplot. GL himself said that it was overkill, and I agree. However, Dooku's characterization was wrong too. He was basically characterized as a sociopath; he didn't know what friendship was and everything. Count Dooku is a good guy gone bad---not a speciest, born-evil sociopath.
     
  8. dewback_rancher

    dewback_rancher Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2009
    TragicHeroLover, I think it helps if you realize that at the point in the novel when you have Padme and Anakin interacting at all, Anakin's already passed the point where he's mirrored Luke's "Edge Of The Abyss" moment in Return of the Jedi.

    Take a moment to look at the duel between Anakin and Dooku in ROTS and Luke and Vader in ROTJ for a moment.

    A brash, black-clad young hero named Skywalker, with a mechanical prosthetic right hand is fighting the Sith Lord who took said hand. Palpatine is in the background, on a rotating throne in front of a viewport showing a raging, climactic space battle at the height of a galaxy-ravaging civil war he's orchestrated to secure the Skywalker as an apprentice. The Sith Lord goads Skywalker into a fury, trying to tempt him to the dark side- which backfires when the Skywalker, in a dark-side-induced fury, utterly and one-sidedly thrashes him, lopping off at least one hand and having the Sith Lord at his mercy. Palpatine tells the Skywalker to finish the Sith Lord.

    The difference is that Luke stepped back from the abyss. He spared Vader. Anakin didn't- he plunged headlong into the abyss and lopped Dooku's head off, setting the events of ROTS into motion. The rest of the movie- and thus, the novelization- is Anakin falling in deeper and deeper until he can no longer see the light.

    Given the emphasis we get on how dangerous Luke's situation is in ROTJ, is it any surprise that after making the opposite choice, Anakin gets flashes of being really, really dark sided? [face_peace]
     
  9. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    I can see what you mean, but the movie Anakiin wasn't nearly as dark as the book one. However, one thing I have noticed is that Anakin's relationship with Obi Wan is not healthier because you don't see Anakin's dark side when he's around Obi Wan; the fact that Anakin throws temper tantrums and complains around Padme shows that he trusts her enough to not judge him for the less likable aspects of his personality.

    I think that's why most people like Obi Wan/Anakin better than Anakin/Padme. Anakin is more likable when he is around Obi Wan because he doesn't trust Obi Wan enough to show him the nastier characteristics of his personality. But us Anakin/Padme fans like Anakin's relationship with Padme better because we know that she loves Anakin unconditionally.

    And speaking of Padme...I thought she too lovey-dovey in Stover's book. Patrica Wrede's Padme seemed more, well, in character. Strangely, the characters were just more understandable when I read Patrica's book. It really felt like it was an adaption of the movie, and telling me what the characters were thinking in the movie, whereas the dialogue was so different in Stover's book that it didn't tell me what the characters were thinking in the movies. It felt like the author was trying to rewrite ROTS. Most will disagree, but that's just how I felt.

    I'm not sure if all the stuff in that book is canon, though. Stover wrote, for example, that Padme trusted Obi Wan over Anakin, when George Lucas said in the Chosen One documentary that Padme trusted ANAKIN, not kriffing Obi Wan. And then, the part about Padme apparently thinking Anakin's vision was just a metaphor was erroneous. In Patrica Wrede's book, she never said that and was more worried. Padme thinking it's *just* a metaphor makes her sound kind of dull, seeing as how she knew what happened the last time Anakin had a vision of one of his loved ones dying.

    But let's face it. Both of the ROTS novelizations are EU material, but the ROTS junior novelization just happens to have the same characterizations as the ROTS movie did, whereas Stover's characterizations were inconsistent with the moive characterizations. He used the original dialogue, which made the characters vastly differentt from how they were in the movie.

    The junior novelization may be pretty short, but that's because it's a YA noveilization. If it had a couple more deleted scenes, more of Palpatine's manipulations, and more of the characters' thoughts, it would be perfect.
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Although Lucas is said to have line-edited it, it does say in one place that Padme was the youngest queen ever elected, which directly contradicts AOTC. There may be a few other instances which don't seem to completely fit with preexisting canon, but IIRC they can be rationalized in one way or another ( such as Obi-Wan acting as if he knows that Dooku is Tyranus, when he shouldn't ).
     
  11. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    I swear, if I don't hear another mention of Othello in this thread again, It'll be too soon.
     
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Guys, take it to the discussion thread, not the review thread.
     
  13. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Dec 24, 2010
    Well, I guess I should just ignore those parts then. After all, the book was written before the movie came out, so it's bound to have inconsistencies.
     
  14. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    "Line-edited by George Lucas" tends to suggest that any "inconsistencies" are things he either a) agreed with or b) thought were improvements.
     
  15. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    But...isn't it essentially an EU book? And aren't EU books non
    canon?
     
  16. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Dec 24, 2010
    *double message*
     
  17. Abalore

    Abalore Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Tragicherolover, you do realize your 19 posts in this thread are about 18 too many, right?
     
  18. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    I'm sorry I posted too much. I just began to rant, and rant because I was angry about that love triangle. But I'll leave now.
     
  19. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    No, the EU is canon unless it's specifically contradictory. And "line-edited by George Lucas" to my eye, at least, means that nothing in there is contradictory at all.
     
  20. TragicHeroLover132

    TragicHeroLover132 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Well...what about Padme thinking Obi Wan was the only Jedi she could trust? Isn't that contradictary, seeing as how George Lucas said it was Anakin she was talking about? What should I take as canon: The novelization, or what GL said about his characters? I know Padme feeling like she can trust only Obi Wan seems like a small thing, but I think it changes things quite a bit because it caused her to feel very guilty.