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JCC The JCC Fascism Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    it's almost as if the two were compatible.
     
  2. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    thank you mr hitchens
     
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  3. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    Well, Mussolini didn't sleep with the mummified arm of St. Theresa, did he? Franco wins!
     
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  4. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
  5. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    basically as far as "winning" fascism goes its pretty much

    1. Mishima for being badass and ideologically unyielding and for basically devoting his life and death to his fascist aesthetics

    2. Franco for holding onto power for a ridiculously long time despite doing a whole bunch of weird capricious ****

    3. Napoleon III for basically being in the right place at the right time an inordinate number of times and holding onto power for a pretty long time despite being an imbecile and for pretty much inventing fascism as we know it and foreshadowing the politics that would come to dominate the first half of the next century
     
  6. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Napoleon III?
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    Is it really surprising? They needed something with broad popular support to bolster their legitimacy and was simultaneously identified with the national identity while not being the institutions they were overthrowing. The Catholic Church was one of the obvious options for the countries in question. What is surprising is not that the fascists wanted to embrace Catholicism. What is remarkable is that to a disturbing extent the Catholic Church embraced them back.
     
  8. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002

    i edited to explain but yeah the second empire was pretty much the prototype of fascism. he was a pioneer, (albiet a somewhat bumbling one)
     
  9. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    So, a French pioneer then?
     
  10. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    What makes the Second Empire different than the other powers on the continent at the time-- Prussia/Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia-- hell, even the Ottoman Empire? I'm no student of fascism in particular, but they all had seemingly proto-fascist movements and sensibilities.
     
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    During the early phase of the Second Empire, Nap III basically pioneered the police state. He wasn't ideologically a fascist in the slightest (he claimed to be sympathetic towards socialism) but he excelled in controlling the press and the levers of public opinion. It was once he began his liberal phase that things went awry bc unmuzzling parliament and the press left them free to call him out for the big doofus he was. Parliament was majority monarchist but split between the Bonapartists, Legimists, and Orleanists. His biggest support came from Catholics -- which vanished -- and nostalgic people who thought he'd be a visionary genius like his uncle.

    But the conservative phase is probably what Ten means. The guy was the prototype not only for fascism but for strongmen dictators too -- centrist authoritarians. He may have been in a different industry, but he built the tools of the trade.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.

    Edit: the difference between him and the other monarchies is that his depended on public supper, so he not only needed to repress dissent but control and create positive opinions. The other monarchies you mentioned just wanted to keep liberals and socialists quiet.
     
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  12. slightly_unhinged

    slightly_unhinged Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 28, 2014
    The rainbow of political ideologies is there only to divert our gaze from the Truth: that each and every 'person' in a position of power - including all TFn moderators - is an extraterrestrial lizard-critter.

    Dave* told me that. At the pub**.

    * A venerable personage with magnificent hair
    ** An august institution of learning
     
  13. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

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    Nov 20, 2012
  14. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Oh Pearls, you're far too good for the industry you're stuck rotting in, bad puns and all.
     
  15. duende

    duende Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 28, 2006
    YES
     
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  16. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    you would
     
  17. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    Franco was a true zealot. His extreme Catholicism is well documented, even before the Spanish Civil War. He literally slept with holy relics.
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Dave, as alluded to earlier in this thread (I think), I had heard that Franco was not an ideological fascist, "just" a hard right authoritarian and that he used the fascists to gain power but then mostly kept them to the lower rungs. Obviously he was still repressive regardless, but to your knowledge is that true or not or was the source I was reading (don't have the name handy) full of bull?
     
  19. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Iello I think if anyone on these boards could turn into a fascist autocrat it would be you.
     
  20. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    Falange was a melting pot of different right wing ideologies. You had the pure fascism of co-founder Sanchez Mazas, the authoritarianism of the Carlist traditionalists, the rabid Catholicism of the Catholic unions... You can definitely consider Franco himself to not be a fascist, as he certainly purged many of the original Falangists from the party. He was a simple man, rabidly anti-Communist and fervently Catholic, and I doubt he could even get to grasp what fascism was.
     
  21. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Ok, thanks Dave. So there is a basis to that claim, then. He was basically a zealot, then.

    As Ten noted earlier, that's pretty unlikely.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Nah, you're one tiny moustache away from a collection of bespoke brown shirts. You tyrant mod.
     
  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Fascists are way too plebeian.
     
  24. Howard the Duck

    Howard the Duck Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Is think that if you are going to insist that Franco and Mussolini weren't really fascists then you're taking a no true Scotsman position. I have also seen the argument that while Franco and Mussolini were fascists, Hitler wasn't truly a fascist because National Socialism borrowed from fascist ideology but didn't make Catholicism a core part of the ideology.

    Anyways, to relate this discussion back to Star Wars, I think that anytime you hear someone insisting on a "with us or against us/join us or die" position, its a red flag for authoritarian impulses (not necessarily fascist). I've seen that same (or similar) position used to justify mass murder by Nazis, an Argentinian officer in the military who tortured/disappeared people in the Dirty War, George W. Bush, and of course... Darth Vader.
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Mussolini essentially invented the term fascism as we know it; if he wasn't a fascist, nobody was :p