The Jedi, A Sudden Realization

Something just hit me as we draw ever closer to Episode III. The Jedi Purge. Something we all know is coming.

Thinking back to the OT I can remember all those times thinking about how the Jedi were played off as these ultimate warriors who could conquer death itself. Now I see: The Jedi were normal beings like anyone else in the galaxy, just they had learned to acquire extra abilities. It didn't make them immortal or omnipotent, they were still just beings. I know Qui-Gon died in EPI and all, but it never really sunk in until now.

Kinda scary, its like that time where you realized your parents are only human (I'm still trying to think of another parallel) just on a movie scale.

Thoughts?

 

Yeah, more or less. I think that was actually the point ofthe PT - humanizing the characters, giving them flaws.

For me, the PT is a warning about human weakness, while the OT picks up and shows the power of human strength. And Anakin's underlying, continuing story through the saga as a whole shows how a person can walk a path through both and ultimately must come full circle.

 

God bless ya C-S!

 

Yes, through the OT a great image was formed for the Jedi. Then we saw many species on the council. Then we saw a bunch of extras with lightsabers fight robots in AOTC. Yeah, the realization is not that they suck, but Lucas has conveyed that they do through his writing and directing. Their quite amazing in comics and in the mini-series though.

 

If Lucas wanted to make the Jedi as invincible as they were interpreted from the OT, then he would have a hard time explaining why there are only 2 Jedi Knights left when we get to ANH. As this thread demonstrates, nobody would buy the fact that these super-powered priests can be killed off so easily.

 

exactly, dude.

 

I wouldnt say that they are interpretted as invincible in the OT. The fact that there are only two alive in ANH tells you, aside from Obi-Wan explaining that they were hunted down and destroyed, should be evidence that they were mortal beings. I do agree that GL right from the beginning of the PT goes out of his way to depict them as flawed, or maybe antiquated is the better word.

 

Apart from Chaotic_Serenity's remarkable comments,
and if we disregard all EU, my first consept of the Jedi knights was more medieval/primordial.

Omnipotent dudes freely roaming the Galaxy, taking apprentices as they go, having a loose accosiation with one another. Kinda like Lancelot in the old Excalibur movie. "I came,I solved, I left".

The main thing that bugged me in the PT was the thing that they have created such a strict and organized esoteric society. And the evident fact that they have lost their greater connection to the Force. If we compare them to Luke's first appearance in ROTJ it's like

Luke -"Gee man, the Jedi are here, run for your lives!"

PT average Knight -"Gee man, the Jedi are here, better not smoke..."

Come on! Vader did the Galaxy a favor by killing them. So my two cents: The only real Jedi we have ever seen is Luke. The others were wannabes with clean robes and flashy sticks.

 

"he would have a hard time explaining why there are only 2 Jedi Knights left when we get to ANH. As this thread demonstrates, nobody would buy the fact that these super-powered priests can be killed off so easily."

Thats what the super Midichlorian-filled "chosen one" is for. Lucas is bending over backwards to give Anakin a force reputation that lives up to him ( before Grevous ) being one who can single-handedly take out several Jedi. The Jedi appear to be no more powerful than me with a golf-club and a sixpack of beer. 20Pound droids with blasters? Please. It has nothing to do with it not being right or wrong to show more powerful Jedi. Its a matter of creativity on Lucas part to convey onscreen which is hinted in diolog and commentary. Force-pushing and high-jumping. 2O years in the making.

 

I must say that I am pretty impressed with the abilities, fighting skills and speed of the Jedi in the prequels.

I don't know what people expected to see, but I certainly never had the impression from the old trilogy, that we were going to see Jedi flying or being immortal or omnipotent.

 

The Jedi are powerful, there's a reason the Dark Lord of the Sith goes out of his way to spend a lifetime building up to a war (and still nearly failing at it) so that he can lessen the Jedi numbers.

There's a reason why the slighest loss of control results in the slaughter of an entire village. There's a reason why Dooku needed thousands of Droids to take care of 30 some Jedi Knights etc etc.

I could go on and on. The flaws the Jedi have are those that have nothing to do with power, that's the whole point behind it all.

And i agree with those who say that the OT doesn't "immortalize" or "superultramega-enhance" that order at all, heck - most people don't even believe in them! And most who do mock them and laugh in the face of the rumoured return of one.

The only ones who we actually see fear the Jedi are Tarkin and Palpatine, as for Palpatine - i think we all know that he doesn't fear Luke for his Jedi powers, he fears Luke for being a Skywalker; and having a particular connection to another 'former' Skywalker.

Then there's Obi Wan and Yoda, who are living and telling proof that the Jedi never were superheros or anything close to it.

So again, where are these "hints" or claims in the OT that the Jedi are more then we have/get to see in the prequels.

 

Well, that was just kind of the impression I got, them holding up the government and all in their "civilized age."

Besides, the lightsaber was such an awesome weapon that it seemed to me that only an truly powerful being could wield it. Also, I didn't mean immortal in a literal tense (obviously, as pointed out, they were hunted and killed) but more of a... well, I don't exactly know how to explain it, more of a feeling. I kinda got this impression from Ben's speech in ANH.

But anyway, about them being dead if they were all so powerful, after witnessing the pure evil of the Emperor (or ANH Vader), I could believe that this purge really occurred.

 

The Jedi appear to be no more powerful than me with a golf-club and a sixpack of beer.

Bingo. Hit the nail dead on the head, you did.

"I guess I like it fine, so far. She lives on love street.. lingers long on love street... she has a house and garden, I would like to see what happens".

 

I actually take the oppisate approach. I feel that in the OT the Jedi look more "human" and vunerable. I thought that during TPM they looked too powerful, and had all these wierd abilites (running at 90 mph away from destroyers). In the PT a jedi cab take on 100 "battle" droids at a time. This looks unrealistic and makes them look all powerful.

 

In the OT, a lone Jedi takes on 40 members of Jabba's palace and wins.

In the OT, 200 Jedi take on a million battle droids and get their asses stomped flat. There was no "Taking on" for the Jedi in that battle.

 

No offense, Kroll, but Darth Boba's right on the Geonosis issue. Some of the more powerful Jedi kicked serious butt, sure, but out of 200 Jedi that went to Geonosis, less than twenty survived. Yoda was right to correct Obi Wan on his "victory" commentary.

The Jedi in the PT are stronger, faster, better because they're in their Golden Age. Most of the charactere we follow are in the prime of youth and some of the most powerful in the series. However, as *people* most of them are very flawed. The Jedi Council and individual Jedi at large are continously making mistakes. In the PT, we get to see this. In the OT, the Jedi are less trained and aging, sure, but the memory of the Jedi as a whole is only seen as a legend of sorts, grand warriors of a "more civilized era" that exist more as unseen heroes rather than as people.

The Jedi, with the exception of Luke Skywalker, are not people in the OT; they are an ideal that the main hero of the series strives to reach. Even Yoda, in all of his personal lack of idealism, feeds into the cultural image of unshakeably wise and powerful creature. The only mistake Yoda makes in the course of the OT is to believe Vader is unreachable as a person, something that most of the audience is led to believe up until that point, so we can't fault him on that. In the PT, however, we see a very different Yoda - one, who while often understands that there is more than meets the eye, ultimately fails in protecting the very Order he served by his lack of vision. (Understandably, this isn't his fault. The dark side clouds everything, but that doesn't negate that it takes away from the "all power Zen master" image fans had of him.) Even Obi Wan is, to a degree, almost seen a perfect grandfather figure - it's only through his personal admission at the end that we see a confession of what he believes led to the end.

The physical power the Jedi display in the PT is not a sign of their inhumanity. It's simply a sign of better training and preparation. What the PT does do is give us insight into the weaknesses of the Order as a whole, but also to the human lackings of the individuals within it.

 

"Come on! Vader did the Galaxy a favor by killing them. So my two cents: The only real Jedi we have ever seen is Luke. The others were wannabes with clean robes and flashy sticks."

Well, you don't know how much I agree with this statement. Remember when Mace says 'we'll take the Jedi we have left' before going to Geonosis? Well, I think that these Jedi aren't the great fighters and tactical genius's that the Jedi who are on missions might be. The best Jedi go on the first missions that come up... then the second stringers... then there are just healers and geriatric frogs left in the Temple...

In short, I think we've only seen a few of the 'warrior' Jedi. But wars do not make one great...

 

" The Jedi in the PT are stronger, faster, better because they're in their Golden Age "

I would say they are in their waning years at the time of AotC and maybe even TPM and of course with so many more Jedi learning, teaching and doing they are more capable individually in the PT. But one of the obvious themes and real life metaphors of the PT is that society has outgrown them and it was only a matter of time before oppostion that they couldnt handle crept into their existence, which of course it does.

 

Are you sure, severian? I could have sworn Lucas himself referred to it as such, hence why I made the ref. I could be remembering wrong, though. Nevertheless, it is a time when some of their most powerful users existed. It was the generation that produced the Chosen One, anyway.

 

Well, only two Jedi were KNOWN to have survived The Purge. But the same idea/concept remains the same.

What I find most intriguing, is that despite the fact the Jedi play a huge role in the OT, the Jedi technically are non-existent in the OT. Obi-Wan and Yoda are pretty much no longer Jedi, as they are incapable of carrying out their duties. And there's the big misconception that Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight. He doesn't become a Jedi until he defeats Darth Sidious and frees the galaxy from his grip.

Why is this intriguing? Because in terms of the Star Wars mythos, the Jedi are almost like God. They're a legend of the galaxy's history. In the Dark Times leading into the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi are a reminder that somebody once protected the galaxy from all that is bad and evil. But they are no longer around. When Obi-Wan tells Luke that "For over a thousand generations the Jedi were the keepers of peace and justice throughout the galaxy," you almost see the Jedi, see them as these illuminated heroes, saviors of the past. Through all this, the OT gives the Jedi a feel of being like some supreme being that gave them life or something. The OT portrays the Jedi in a very uplifting manner.

Then comes the PT, and they show what the Jedi were really like. At least towards the end of their existence.

 

He does say that Chaotic, I cant remember where either, but he does. I meant that the Jedi were behind the curve with the world(s) around them, not that they werent at the zenith of their collective knowledge or powers. I mean thats an underlying problem in the PT isnt it? That the Jedi couldnt catch up in numbers in relation to the number of worlds and societies being discovered or joining the Republic, at least at the beginning of the PT.

 

Perhaps GL was refering to the Golden age of the Jedi and the peak of their power in a more temporal way and not in terms of the Force. Their Order is bigger than ever before (methinks) they have hi-tech thingies everywere around them (including expensive luxurious saber hilts)
they get a truck load of respect wherever they go,( and fear) and finally they represent the long arm of the Senate. They are at their peak, just not the right kind of peak.

 

First a lone Jedi doesn't take on 40 members of jaba's palace, he has help of lando, chewy and such. Also they were getting han out of there in a well thought out plan, not taking on all of them.

But my problem doesn't come from just their power in battle, it has to do with their personallities, lucas makes them seem so dull. They are always serious, although luke was a jedi, he could still be and act normal around his "friends". The Jedi in the PT never seemed to joke, (or very little)they cant get married...they too serious.

...I guess i just had a different point of view as to what they would be like

 

First a lone Jedi doesn't take on 40 members of jaba's palace, he has help of lando, chewy and such. Also they were getting han out of there in a well thought out plan, not taking on all of them.


Ok. Lando took out two guys. Chewie didn't take out any.

Watch ROTJ, and count how many people Luke kills.

 

Well, Han does save Luke from Boba Fett...