The Jedi are wise in their descision to ban marriage.

BTW, son of the tear, I enjoyed your little satire-thing. Very funny.

If I may amend your statement about the Force granting free will to better suit my own point of view, I would say that the Force does not simply grant free will - the Force is free will. For the reasons I've said above.

Even the will of the Force. I define it as Goethe defined the rules of nature - as simply a description of the way things work, not as a set of commandments to be followed.

 

Thank dude.

And thanks for that insight there. Yeah, you are correct in that.

That is what I meant to say. The force is free will.

But where my view takes a slight turn is the role of the Living Force as opposed to the "by the rule book" way of the force the Jedi Order follows.

Thus tha is why I think the Living Force is more in tune with the true meaning of the force... in my opinion of course.

 

"oh and son of the tears, that little skit really was not humourous in any way. "

Yeah it was.

sleazo: Sarcasm is unbecoming, both on you and on one Mr. Kenobi.

son_of_a_tear: Bravissimo again to your last few posts.

 

Why thank you girlfriend!

*double snaps fingers high in the air*

 

Ahh, Obi wan is sarcastic that is why i admire him sooo....mmmmm sarcasm.
Seriously though i am not trying to force my beliefs upon anyone, just telling it like i think it is.

Ded-Man, i really enjoy your posts, and i agree w/ you that you cannot talk of absolutes, i was over simplifying things. Christianity could have turned out differently too if it was the Gnostic Mystics who succeeded in winning over converts as oppossed to the literalists of the organised church. But it was not to be as the Gnostics did not seek converts, and their exhistence threatened the early church.
Anyway good points on the jedi and the free flowing force. I do however agree with the jedi and their codes.


Oh and i read the skit again, i guess SW fan humour just doesnt do it for me, i enjoy sarcastic people and their fractured take on modern life.


As Obi Wan says "Good Job"

 

I myself have been happily married for eight years, and I have no trouble concentrating on any tasks that need my concentration.

Yet anakin_girl, you've also said that believe that if your mother or other loved one was killed as Shmi was, you'd probably do even worse than Anakin with the Tuskens. Which is reasonable enough, who knows, I or anyone else might do the same thing. But the Jedi aren't "just anyone". In order to do what they do, they CANNOT do that.

But this is exactly why the Jedi have their rules. Because they can't have thousands of people going off doing that, doing what Anakin did. This is what would happen if they didn't have those rules.

Also, yes Lucas is very much for family, as anyone should be. But with great power comes great responsibility and sometimes great sacrifice. The Jedi aren't "anti-family"--everything they do is dedicated towards trying to make the galaxy safer for families and all good people.

But I really do not believe Lucas would make a film which in some way states that natural families must be better because, first off, his own children are all adopted. And while he was married and loved his wife and would probably like to get married again, he hasn't been married in nearly 20 years. Part of the reason for that, besides his wife apparently going off and having an affair(I think that's what I've heard) is that she felt he was too wrapped up in other things.

How do you think a Jedi spouse would feel? A Jedi spouse by definition would have to come after the Force, after the Jedi Order and after serving the Republic...so they'd be way down on the list.

We should also recall that, in real life, the divorce rate amongst many Special Forces often hovers at around 80%. What the Jedi do is sort of equivalent(small groups highly trained individuals sent to hotspots to try and "put out the fire")--and calls for total dedication and focus. They also have even more power at their individual disposal with the Force.

I believe the Living Force is but a part of the so-called Unifying Force. To focus so nearly exclusively on it means to be unbalanced, not closer to balance and to often not consider the consequences of one's actions. Qui-Gon, at least, was never shown even giving the slightest consideration to consequences.

In the recent interview with that LA newspaper, Lucas mentioned that part of the lesson of Anakin's story was about the consequences of one's actions(or lack of consideration there of...).

In some weird way I think this may tie into the whole disappearing/ghost thing. I actually used to be very against the idea of Disappearing and Re-appearing as a ghost being two seperate abilities but that thread the other day about Dualism and Sex got me thinking and I can see it now. I believe there is a belief amongst some Hindus that those who reach a certain level of enlightenment will bodily disappear and join, I don't know what they call it, but I'll just say the great Whole.

I believe the disappearance part could be from the whole Force side of it, reaching a certain level of "oneness" with the Force, whereas the ability to appear as a ghost comes from using the living force aspect of the Force to "bind oneself to the world" as an individual.

In some ways, one could almost look upon this as a punishment, self-imposed anyway because, for example with Obi-Wan, he keeps his consciousness from becoming one with the Force. It would be a little like keeping oneself from going to heaven. I hadn't thought of it before the other day but this could be how Lucas explains Obi-Wan's lack of knowledge about other events going on. By doing this he is limiting the reach of his consciousness but it is the only way he can see to it that Luke is trained further and thus try to correct the errors of the past. Yoda dies later on but he himself may have done the same thing had it proven necessary. Instead he and Anakin join Obi-Wan to come back for a brief appearance in order to show Luke, "see everything is okay now."

In

 

Thank you for basically clarifying what ive been trying to say Naw Ibo, and you did so very eloquently i might add. i also believe that love to a jedi would interfere with both his duties and his ability to become attuned to the force. This interferes with their ability to become one with the great whole or the buddha nature or the force or whatever you call it.

 

Good points, naw ibo. A couple of things--

"...you've also said that believe that if your mother or other loved one was killed as Shmi was, you'd probably do even worse than Anakin with the Tuskens."

And I stand by that statement, because we're talking about my mother here. True that I'm no Jedi; however, I think anyone, Jedi or not, should be able to love their mothers.

"How do you think a Jedi spouse would feel? A Jedi spouse by definition would have to come after the Force, after the Jedi Order and after serving the Republic...so they'd be way down on the list. "

True, and the Jedi spouse would need to go into the marriage with this understanding; I think Padme could have handled that. However, the Jedi Order should not make the decision for the Jedi--"We don't think you can handle a marriage, therefore we forbid you to get married."

My basic point regarding Anakin and the Jedi Code has been, all along, that if Jedi are going to serve humans in the Republic, mediating disputes, etc., they need to be allowed to be human themselves (I wouldn't want some emotionless droid who had no idea what I go through on a day-to-day basis, trying to mediate my disputes); this includes being allowed to love and to feel emotion. They should have control over their feelings--control can be taught; however, they shouldn't be forbidden to have relationships.

 

If strict jedi rules make people rebel why has no one done it in thousands of years. anakin actually chose this life unlike the thousands of Jedi who did not rebel(though by your logic they are precisely the ones who should have).

and as for your statement to Raz Zaphon
"If they aren't human, how are they suppposed to defend other humans?"
Well humans have used dogs to protect them and there livestock for millenia. If dogs can protect us i think higher beings could too, give the Jedi some credit.

Those are good points, sleazo. Also one thing everyone going on about these "strict rules" should remember is--the Jedi aren't so strict that a rebellious Jedi like Qui-Gon couldn't be a Master and couldn't train a student. They aren't so strict that they don't much regret Dooku's leaving and still hold him in a great deal of respect prior to learning of his Dark Side status.

 

As I said earlier, regarding those points:

1) The other Jedi didn't rebel because they didn't know there was anything different, anything better; and

2) I am not going to hire a dog to mediate my disputes.

 

Yes, the Jedi have these rules and whatever. Maybe the rules are good, maybe not. That is not the issue.

The issue is that they don't get a choice to begin with. And they should.

And with Anakin, we have someone who was raised by his mother and he has a choice and should. No one should take that away from him.

The Jedi Order is flawed in its anal retentive ways in my opinion.

Naw, you have good points as well. But be honest with me, if it was the other way around and OB1 was the one who wanted to love and share love because he had much love in him to share like Donnie Smith did in "Magnolia", you would be one of the first defending free will and freedom of choice for your hero.

 

And I stand by that statement, because we're talking about my mother here. True that I'm no Jedi; however, I think anyone, Jedi or not, should be able to love their mothers.

That's fine. As I said, I certainly can't say I'd be different, although I'd like to think I would be, just as I'm sure most people would like to think they would be. The problem isn't Anakin loving his mother, but his attachment to her. They were willing to give HIM the chance to overcome his attachment. He did not do it. No one said loving his mother was wrong. The fact that they mentioned it does not mean they were saying he was wrong for it, just that it was there and that, as a Jedi, it would cause problems. What was wrong was his attachment to her. The same thing goes for Padme. If he loves her, he loves her. But he cannot be attached to her.

As for mediating disputes, it seems the Jedi do a very good job of mediating disputes. But they can't mediate thousands of them at once. It would be like the whole city of New York going insane at once. There was a great tragedy in NYC only a few months ago, it was because New Yorkers showed their "better angels" that things went alright in the aftermath. But if not, the cops could still do their jobs exactly right, but if you've got a few hundred thousand people on the island of Manhatten going nuts, those cops are going to be overwhelmed if the other 1 1/2 million people don't do anything to help them.

The Jedi are being overwhelmed because they are among the only ones who are still actively trying to uphold the ideals of the Republic. Nearly everyone else is pretty much in "every man/planet/system for themselves" mode, looking no further than their own immediate satisfaction, whatever the long term consequences. The reason the Jedi could do it on their own for so long was because others did their part as well. Many of those people who used to do their part are no longer doing their part.

RE: Getting a choice

The Jedi get the same choice we all do. We are all raised in a certain way. We can choose to follow our parents way or to not. In the case of the Jedi, they can choose to remain in the Order or they can choose to leave. They can leave. Dooku leaves. At least 19 others over the years have left. No it isn't easy, but it isn't easy to leave a marriage(usually), it isn't easy to leave a family or one's friends but if it is what one really wants, if one believes it is in the best interests of oneself and others, one can do it. The very fact that so few have left says that for the most part, they probably are fairly content.

As someone pointed out above, they don't live in a monastary away from the world. They are out in it. They see it at it's best and at it's worst. They deal with all sorts of people from the leaders of planets to criminals and informants. They probably know more about "the real world" than 99% of the inhabitents of the galaxy. They certainly see it and as such they can be tempted by it. They know it is there if they choose it. They don't.

Anakin is simply being faced with a choice. Difficult choices to be sure, but choices anyone in one way or another could face. Anakin goes about making his decisions or his lack of decisions in the wrong way.

 

Okay let's try this differently with an new exercise. Lucas says this trilogy is supposed show to how people, any of us in particular, can become evil. How exactly is he showing this with Anakin?

 

The Four Oaths of the Samurai Bushido:

1. Never be late with respect to the Way of the warrior. (When faced with a life or death situation, always choose death over life. If you become accustomed to the idea of death?resolved to death?you can pass through life with no possibility of failure in whatever you set out to do.)



2. Be useful to the lord of the house.



3. Be respectful to your parents.



4. Get beyond love and grief: Exist for the good of man.

 

yodaman, as I said above, I believe Lucas is showing us this with choices. We all have choices and difficult situations to face, one's beyond our control. Sometimes it isn't even simply a choice between good and evil, but between two conflicting goods. If one either doesn't make a choice(tries to have their cake and eat it too) or makes their choice without taking the proper consideration then evil can happen EVEN if the initial choices themselves were not evil.


bad radio, thanks for information. It's interesting.

 

What if they make their choice with proper consideration? Will that help avoid evil?

 

i have given this a lot of thought, and i think everyone in this discussion is making very good points. however, i still feel that the jedi masters should not be bound by a strict code of ethics other than the will of the force, whether it be the living or cosmic force. plato once said that you can tell a civilization is in decline by the number of laws they have, meaning that people should live their lives for the common good and laws should not be necessary in a truly civilized republic. i feel the same way about the jedi, they should know how they can best serve the galaxy and the republic and most would probably choose not to get married or fall in love or have families because it would distract from their duties, but they should at least have the choice to live in the way of the force as they themselves experience it. who knows, maybe if the council did not reject anakin and padme's union things would not have turned out how they did, impossible to speculate on that now though.

 

First off I don't see the corolation between loving someone and evil. There are plenty of people who lose their parents to a murder and they got and get revenge and having the force doesn't necessarily mean they would get revenge. Actually I look at the Jedi order like the Catholic Church because they have an obslite rule of Chasity, they feel by not being married they can concentrate on being close to God, it is very simiar but to me is wrong like the Jedi code.

 

Anakin Girl:"1) The other Jedi didn't rebel because they didn't know there was anything different, anything better;"
You are basically arguing against yourself here, those who rebel want to experience something they dont know or have.
as for the dog mediating your disputes, jedi are higher beings as i said
son of the tear "Yes, the Jedi have these rules and whatever. Maybe the rules are good, maybe not. That is not the issue. "
uhmm yeah that is the issue,look at the title of this thread.
And the jedi are not anal retentive, if you have read and thought about the resons why they have these rules in naw ibo's raz zephon's and my posts you would not think this way.
Naw Ibo, i really liked your analogy with nyc. And also your points about choice, once they are older they do have a choice, the point here is that they dont leave b/c they feel that there work is both fulfilling and beneficial to others.
deltron, i see your point about the jedi should have a choice, the problem with this is that they are not regular people and the problems associated with that choice are too horrible. They have a great power which can be used to serve evil, anakin is the prime example of this, it is this choice which leads him down the dark path. It is not the strict rules that send him down the dark path. These rules are neccessary. As Naw ibo said, they are not too strict to allow qui gon to take a padawan and teach that padawan his own philosophy. It is a freer organisation than you are giving it credit for.
Jedi Master Carr--while the similarities are there to the catholic church, the jedi order are similar to Buddhists. They have similar yet i believe different views on love and the divine nature.

 

i guess no one cares anymore

 

"You are basically arguing against yourself here, those who rebel want to experience something they dont know or have. "

I'm not following you there.

Jedi children don't rebel against the rules because they are secluded; they only know other Jedi children who are brought up with the same rules. Not so for Anakin. He has known other children who were allowed contact with their mothers; he is not. He has known other people who are allowed romantic love; he is not. He doesn't understand why he is being refused something that nearly everyone else has (and for that matter, I don't understand it either); he is jealous, and understandably so; and he rebels against rules that he thinks are stupid.

 

Tha matter is they have no choice.

And I have rebelled quite a few times, not because I did not know anthing different or the other reason you said. A few times I have rebelled because I knew there was something better. And I still know that now.

 

Uh, since there is so much going on here, let me make a comment about Anakin attacking the Tuskens over revenge and such....

I would think that if one "really" believed in the Force, they would feel no need to avenge the death, since they know that person has "become one with the Force" or whatever...
put another way...
Anakin didn't need to kill the Tuskens because the the "wil of the Force" was for Shmi to die, his revenge was unnecessary because he should of accepted her death, she's with the Force now, and move on.

Or in real world terms...

It's like killing someone out of revenge for killing a relative, (whatever your belief system, I'm sure you can come up with the equivalent "places/deities") you would think that your parent went to Heaven (for example), so what would killing the murderer accomplish?
They are in a better place, don't worry 'bout it.
If anything, your killing out of revenge may just put your "place in Heaven" in jeopardy.
(Also, it was God's will for your parent to be murdered or it wouldn't of happened, right?)

Now if you're a "non-believer", than you can revenge-kill to your heart's content!

As for the Jedi not being able to be married and such,,,,
I'm sure some EU writer will come along and explain it, don't worry about it.
I'm sure the benefits to celibacy outweight the negatives, like having more money, freedom to travel, etc.

 

I thought we did this argument already, I skimmed through some of it, but my argument remains the same as it did last time.

Like my SEAL friend said to me. Special Forces is a single man's gig. As being a Jedi was. I think posting the Bushido code pointed out something similiar to the code of the Jedi. Do what is good for the Galaxy. As I've said before Love as defined by we humans in the 21st century AD on planet earth is a selfish thing. It is all about me me me. And when infatuation gets boring, we say, "I don't love you anymore." This is not really love.

Jedi swear an oath to be there for the Galaxy at a moments notice. they must travel all over the vastness of space resolving conflicts. It might not always be a short lived afair. They could be gone for years. There is a like a 90% divorce rate amongts America special forces. This a distraction. A distraction that hurts famalies. The Jedi understood that it was better a Jedi not be married, thus his commitments divided. How can his head be fully in his duties.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving someone. I also don't think there is anything wrong with having sort of an attachment. Love is a very beautiful thing, and there is nothing wrong with loving someone, or being in love with the opposite sex. Its all about control and balance. You should also have a sense of duty, to your family, and your organization. With Anakin, I don't think that he will have control and balance, which causes him to travel the dark path.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being angry if someone murdered your loved one as well. If someone brutually killed my mother, would I be angry? HECK YES! I would have every right to be angry, just like any other person. However, it all about not letting that anger cause you to lose control, and sin. With Anakin, he loses control, and committs an evil act. Instead of controlling his anger, forgiving, and walking away, he chooses to get revenge. That is wrong, and that is something we should not do. When you seek revenge, than you yourself, is no better than the person who did wrong to you, or to your loved one. Like Jesus once said, be ye angry, but sin not (paraphrasing).

Do I think that the Jedi are going to be shown as flawed? Um, yes. If the Jedi were perfect, than it would be a less compelling story. The Jedi are human just like we are. They make mistakes, their rules may not be totally perfect. Does this make the Jedi evil beings? No, not at all . It just means that sometimes, change is for the better, and in order for one to move on, sometimes, change is necessary.

Furthermore, does this mean that the Jedi are responsible for Anakin's downfall? No, not at all. We all have a choice, and Anakin unfortuantely, choose the wrong path. Perhaps things could've been done differently where Anakin is concerned, but the choice is ultimately his. Anakin himself, will have to face the consequences for his actions. There are things that could cause us to sin, but we still have a choice.

Remember that in the new Jedi Order (EU), the Jedi are allowed to marry, and love. Luke Skywalker is happily married, has a son, and is a great Jedi Master. He loves his wife and family. At the same time, he has control, and not let his personal issues distract him from his duties as a Jedi. In other words, he is very loyal and loving to his family and loved ones. He is also devoted to the Jedi Order he pratically recreated.

I think that this is something all Jedi Padawans should learn (its okay to be in love and to be in love with someone, but you must also learn control and balance). I hope that they do learn this in the old Jedi order (PT era), but again, I am not sure that they do

Generally speaking, Anakin Skywalker is going to be a character many people will be able to identify with. He is faced with some very tough choices, but unfortuantely, he is neither mature enough, nor strong enough to maintain control. Some of the things he does is what many people do today. What he does is also what many of us are capable of, if we allow our emotions (anger) to engulf us. In other words, if one don't have a sense of control (forgiving, and authenticating our anger), than those things will cause them to committ atrocities as well.

Ironically, in the end, it will be Anakin Skywalker that will truly understand (in ROTJ, when he really sees what a mess his life has been, and the damage he's caused) and make things right again. He does this when he saves his son, and is redeemed. Everything that happens in the PT will make us understand how things came to be, and will ultimately make Anakin's redeemption even more dramatic, yet satisfying.