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PT The Jedi Code: Is it wrong to believe in these ideals?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by {Quantum/MIDI}, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    I always see others who disagree with the jedi's code, either saying the Jedi's were dumb, foolish and they're code was stupid. And Having Qui-Gon, seemingly made this point more validated.

    But why is it wrong to look into the jedi's ideals?

    The code in itself, provides knowledge and worldly values, basically correlating with our daily lives.

    Just a thought that's been in my mind for a while now...
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Specially without providing arguments to back up their claims.

    No, the Jedi way is not wrong. It's a full-time, selfless commitment, so it's not for everybody. But wrong? Not in the slightest.
     
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  4. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013
    It's not wrong in my opinion and quite honestly I am sick and tired of seeing fandom crapping on the Jedi with every chance they get.

    They are among the better heroes in fiction and people still can't see that- why it's something I will never know.
     
  5. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    I don't think it's black or white -- the Jedi code has some good aspects to it and some aspects to it that I would not completely advise. The problem is with the people who say that it is either flawless and perfect, or completely misguided and nonsensical. It is neither. But like with most things, the third, middle, sensible option is lost amongst the extremes.

    I am reminded of Thomas Jefferson's view of the American republic and its Constitution. He felt that it was a mix of good and bad. Unlike what many people today say (that the creation of the republic was without error and the Constitution was fundamentally right in every way), Jefferson had grave doubts about the way things had been set up. Yet he also was proud of what the Americans had accomplished and believed they had come a far way towards the good, away from the evils of the British Empire.

    So what did Jefferson believe? Was the American way perfect or another doomed system? Neither. Jefferson felt a mix. I feel the same way about the Jedi code, circa PT era.

    This following quote from the John Adams miniseries is revealing to the point I am making. The same can be said of a lot of the goings on during the PT era -- government, military, Jedi.

    Thomas Jefferson: Our constitution has many good articles, and some bad ones. I do not know yet which predominate.
    John Adams: Well, without this government our republic would have collapsed into anarchy long ago.
    Thomas Jefferson: With this government, I am not certain that we are a republic.

    Very few things are totally pristine or completely hopeless. The truth is in the middle.
    --

    Upon further reflection, I could say a few things about needing the existence of a 'code' in the first place, and what that means, but -- within the constraints of what is asked -- I've said enough for one comment's worth here I think. I'll just leave this as a little seed at the end of this post, pointing to what could possibly be an illuminating discussion, but one that ultimately may broaden the scope of the OP's question beyond his original intention.
     
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  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    To whom? And which aspects are those?
     
  7. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Considering my plea for some admission of ambiguity here is what you have seized upon as questionable, I suppose it can then be said that you see the Jedi code as something quite pristine. In a sense, that is what I am arguing against, though I would make exactly the same comment if someone said the Jedi code was complete garbage.

    You ask: To whom? Obviously, to me. Just as your own views are to you. Of course the words I say are from me and what I value. Who else would I speak for? Although we may like to think that we can speak for others, we really cannot -- we can only speak for ourselves. You speak for yourself and I speak for myself; neither of us can escape our radical subjectivity. So, in answer to that, I evaluate the Jedi code based upon my own mind, just as you evaluate it based upon yours. I would suppose this would be self-evident.

    As for what aspects are good and what are less good, it would take some time and some effort to type that out in its full entirety because it is not a simple issue. I suppose I would need assurance that people would be interested in reading such a text. As such, until then, I can simply tell you that I have my reasons, and I consider them well thought-out and legitimate.
     
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  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I'm asking to whom would you not advise those aspects.

    So much for a discussion in a discussion board...
     
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  9. Homergreg

    Homergreg Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    When you are talking about the code, are you talking about just this:

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no chaos, there is harmony.
    There is no death, there is the Force.

    Or a greater set of rules and interpretations derived from of these 5 ideals?
     
  10. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    I would only advise them with a disclaimer to most people. Without a disclaimer, people could follow the Jedi Code and it would not be the worst thing in the world. But I don't think it would be the best thing in the world either.
    ? I was being respectful of your admiration for the Jedi Code. I don't take pleasure from disagreeing at length with people publicly or from tearing down what they cherish. If I can, I avoid doing such things. Generally, if I know someone cares about something, I don't go out of my way to critique it unless I know they are cool with it. I do not need other people to agree with me, and I don't need to convince others of what I think. What would be the point? The quality of a thought does not change by how many people believe it. If I am the only one to think a thing, that's fine with me. If you truly wanted a discussion, you would have said, "Sure, I am interested, go ahead." Instead, you have dismissed my respectful open-ended response.

    So yes. So much for a discussion in a discussion board.
     
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  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Like I said, you have to abdicate of everything to be a Jedi. Considering their job and way of life, it makes sense for them to do so. It's the right thing to do for someone in their position. That's why it's not for everybody.

    I can respect a point of view I don't agree with. We can discuss and disagree while being respectful. That's what forums are (or should be) all about. To come to a forum and not being willing to expose your arguments that back up your ideas is pointless.
     
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  12. missile

    missile Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 24, 2016
    I think the argument of which code is better for you is ultimately pointless since neither the sith nor jedi made their codes for people like us. Really i think that most people seem to just take them out of context.
     
  13. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    I disagree with the purging of emotions and forbidding of attachment, these mandates deprive a Jedi of his or her humanity.
     
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  14. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    I am willing to expose my arguments and my ideas. I had assumed any readers here could piece it together themselves, perhaps even from my other writings on the matter, but alright... if you need it laid out to you why the Jedi Code is not Completely Perfect In Every Way, I can lay it out. I would think some things don't require such spelling out but I can do it. But in all frankness, I was being serious when I say that it takes me time and some effort to go on at length explaining things to other people. What is the point of doing all that if they are not going to listen to it anyway? All of my previous interactions with you would indicate that your view of the Jedi Order or the Jedi Code will never change no matter how much information is presented. A cursory search on the internet will provide you with many arguments for why the Jedi Code and the Jedi Order pose issues for people (a 1 minute search revealed this and this; it's not hard to see why many people picked up on this -- one of the main themes of the PT is that the Jedi aren't perfect and have issues. To miss that is, I think, to miss the point.). But yet, you think what you think. I don't think it really matters what I say -- you will continue your unfettered admiration for the Jedi.

    Quite the opposite to 'being unwilling to back up my arguments,' I have written whole essays on my issues with the Jedi Order and Jedi Code on this website. And yet, while you have responded to them, I have yet to see you ever see any of the points I am making as legitimate, instead you dodge or deflect constantly, saying how the problem is never with the Order or the Code, it's with the people in them (I need not have to explain what kind of thinking this mirrors in today's world). So yeah, if sufficiently prodded I would be willing to go into detail with my thoughts on it again in this thread, but I think I can be forgiven for thinking that explaining my issues with the Jedi to you for what has to be at least the 5th time is going to feel like a pointless and futile gesture to me at this point.

    Anyway, I'd be much more interested in hearing other people's thoughts on what the OP is talking about. Continue on, thread!
     
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  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Who said they aren't?

    I don't keep tabs on whom I've argued what with. I don't recall having discussed this with you, although it's possible that I have. Still, that's irrelevant to the fact that you're avoiding explaining your arguments out of fear that people won't agree with you. Your insinuation that I won't change my views is not only false but a strawman as well since that's no excuse to presenting and explaining your opinion on a forum. You're free not to do so, but it goes against the very nature of a discussion board. I have changed my views before. Not on this issue though, because not only I've been able to refute the arguments but mine have yet to be refuted for me to change my view.

    Sorry, but I can't discuss with third party links.

    Wether what you say matters or not is up to each reader. But saying nothing matters 0, that's for sure. That's on you though.

    Since sadly there's nothing to see (or in this case, read) here, I'll move along...
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    The Jedi don't purge emotions. They acknowledge that they have fear, anger and hate within them. That they have an inner darkness. Once this happens, they let go of those emotions. They don't live in fear of something happening to their loved ones. Or in fear of their own weaknesses. They don't let anger and hate consume them. And attachment is selfish emotions. Thinking of themselves. Being jealous. Being possessive and obsessive. A Jedi can love, but they cannot start families because of any potential dangers to their loved ones. Anakin's whole arc in the PT is because he's emotional and has attachments to people.

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213.

    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.


    "When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.



    Now, I don't know you. So I cannot speak about what you've gone through in your life. But for me, I've had to deal with the deaths of two family members due to cancer. When this happened, we had to learn to deal with the situation. We had to avoid living in fear that we were going to lose them, each and every day. We had to focus on our lives and not let the negative emotions get in the way. We had to leave out the bad and focus on the good. And when the end was coming, we had to not go out and self-destruct so that we could survive and move on. We could love our loved ones, but we cannot let it control us.

    In the films, Anakin let his emotions run him. He couldn't let go of his mother and when he started to worry, he let those emotions drive him rather than controlling them. And when she died, he lashed out. He self-destructed. And then he goes on to repeat this with Padme, because he's attached to her. He cannot imagine a situation where she dies and he has to move on. He refuses to accept death because he is afraid of it. And so he lashes out in order to keep her. Luke is the same way with Leia. He loves her, but he is afraid to lose her. So he fights to prevent losing her either to death or to the dark side. He uses his emotions to strengthen himself, but these are the dark side. They are his undoing until he realizes the truth and lets go of them. He still loves Leia, but he is willing to accept that whatever fates will befall her, he will not lose himself to prevent it. Good or bad. And this in turn is what saves his father, who chooses to think of someone else instead of himself.
     
  17. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    I'm not saying that you shouldn't come to terms with death and accept the fact that you'll one day lose your loved ones, all I'm saying is that the Jedi should've been able to wed and have children if they so pleased, I guess I should've specified more. I think there's a difference between selfish and selfless attachment, and I'm pretty sure that's what George was referring to when he was talking about compassionate love and possessive love. A marriage can in fact fit into the category of compassionate love, and it definitely shouldn't be cast out. Having someone to care for and connect with in your life is an essential part of human existence, and if that right is taken away from you, it's a detriment to your being more so than a benefit, and induces stress that'll break you down in some capacity.

    Anakin was obsessed with Padme more than he loved her, that was his downfall, not that they were married and shared an intimate bond.

    I also never meant to insinuate that emotions shouldn't be disciplined. Of course if your feelings are unhinged they get the best of you and you do rash things, but I don't think it's right to completely rid of passion, hate and anger, there's room for every emotion on the spectrum to be of some use. These feelings are unavoidable, and no matter how hard you try to remove them, they will take form in one way or another. So, the only way to overcome this fact is to embrace it, but instead of doing that, the Jedi in the prequels seemed to bottle their feelings, which I'd argue made them cold and unfeeling, less empathetic towards others. That's why they rejected Anakin early on; rather than giving him emotional support when he felt afraid, they told him that he wasn't good enough and that feeling fear was all and out wrong, which spawned antagonism between the two of them right out of the gate.

    In the OT, because of his fear and hatred of the Empire, Luke joined Obi-Wan to become a Jedi. Due to the love for his friends, something that's very much an attachment, Luke felt more obligated and driven to devote himself fully to the cause. Due to the attachment to his father, he was able to prove to the Jedi and Palpatine that he didn't need to kill Vader, and that he could be redeemed. Due to his passion, and intense feelings to fight for good, the galaxy was saved. If not for strong emotion and attachment, Luke, and the rest of the galaxy along with him, would've never prevailed.
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How would that work? To raise a family is a commitment that directly conflicts with what being a Jedi is all about.
     
  19. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Victim syndrome? The Jedi are fictional in a fictional story. Some of the fans, me included, happen to not agree with their ideals. Get over it! We are as much entitled to our opinions as you who blindly support the Jedi. As we are entitled to like or dislike any given aspect of Star Wars. If the Jedi were so perfect and wise how come they got themselves wiped out by basically one guy? Right or wrong? Matter of opinion. Their ideology obviously had its faults. Otherwise they would not have been defeated that easily. They became too much focused on their rules that they became blind to the real world. Anybody else would have noticed Anakin's fear for his mother and feelings for Padme, as well as his closeness to Palpatine. But not even Obi-Wan did much about all that. As for their "ideals": isolating young kids from their families is not my idea of a wise philosophy. It's too close to what actual religious sects do in our world. We know how much damage those sects can do, in some cases nothing short of brainwashing. So any similarities to the Jedi have a negative impression on me. I don't care if I'm "right or wrong", it's my impression.
     
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  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    What do wisdom and ideology have to do with being victims of genocide? Perhaps you should review the meaning of theose words.
     
  21. Homergreg

    Homergreg Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    I really think a frame of reference for this will help. When you are talking about the code, are you talking about just this?:​

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no chaos, there is harmony.
    There is no death, there is the Force.

    Or a greater set of rules and interpretations derived from of these 5 ideals? ​
    One person could be talking about those ideals, and another could be talking about some huge list of interpretations derived from them.​

     
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  22. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Had they been wise enough and their ideology closer to real life they may not have become victims of "genocide". What's the whole point of having all those rules when in the end they could not even protect themselves? The Jedi's flaws were there long before they were wiped out. Yoda even mentioned "arrogance" as well as "blindness" toward what is going on. Especially arrogance is not a quality you would expect from a wise society. For it to occur there must be something fundamentally wrong with their ways. Maybe their ways were good enough centuries ago, but no longer adequate for the final days of the Republic? Maybe they should have been less dogmatic and more flexible in their ways?
    That arrogance is shown as early as TPM in Obi-Wan: "another pathetic life form"?? Do wise and noble knights/monks talk that way of "lesser" beings? I don't think so. Easy to imagine that (subconsciously?) Anakin never forgave his future master that sort of attitude. Why did Obi-Wan look down on Anakin? Because he was a slave? A kid? Lived on Tatooine? It could easily have been a factor in why Anakin later wanted to become more powerful than Obi-Wan and take revenge. A 9 year old kid might remember such an insult all his life, especially a kid like Anakin who is not known to let go of things easily.
     
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  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How? What does their wisdom and ideology has to do with the execution of a machiavellian plan from a Sith Lord? Ever heard of non sequitur?
     
  24. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    A plan by ONE person could not have been foreseen by a whole legion of prescient Force-sensitive super-humans that have been guarding the peace for millennia? Seriously? Then I ask again, what makes the Jedi so powerful if they could not even foresee much less prevent that? How many Jedi were there? Thousands? And all it took was one single Sith to defeat them all! The Jedi must have been doing SOMETHING wrong. If not their ideology then the flaws were elsewhere. But they certainly were nowhere near as powerful as we had believed.
     
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  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, because as stated in the movies (more than once), that one person has used the dark side of the Force to cloud the Jedi's vision.

    Even? As if seeing through such huge manipulation of the dark side is the most basic thing...

    So, you aren't even able to explain what their supposed flaws are. All you're able to do is saying that they're wrong.