PT The Jedi Code: Is it wrong to believe in these ideals?

To me the Jedi are great, simply for defining a belief system to aspire to. I'm an atheist, but I do belief people need a belief system to function in a society, and the Jedi's belief system is better than most.

 

He choked her because his mind is in shambles. He was "betrayed"(from his POV) other people. And once he felt that Padme brought along 0bi-Wan to kill him, he thought she turned on him and he went irrational. He was already going insane, so It's not duh that what he did was stupid.

 

1. His motivation is clear; he's in love with Padme and has become obsessed with keeping her in his life, because he defines her as part of his happiness. She is a necessity for him. He is willing to turn his back on all of those people that he cared for, because he's unable to deal with being alone. And because he's afraid of death. He detests change which was established in TPM, he failed to save his mother and he feels that if he cannot save his wife, what good is he as a person and as a husband? What good is he if he cannot keep his promise. So he does what he does to give himself piece of mind. He also goes along with it because he believes in Palpatine's promises not just to save Padme, but to make the galaxy a better place. But to do that, he must make sure that nothing threatens his happiness. That means that the Jedi Order and the Separatist Council must die. The former will start a new war and go after the Senate, the latter will continue the war indefinitely.

2. Palpatine never said that he had the power. He said that he had an incredible wealth of dark side knowledge and that he is the only one left who can teach him how to become all powerful, so that they could figure it out.

PALPATINE: "Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme."

That's what he means when he says, "I have the power to save the one you love."

And yes, that is the point. Anakin is a weak willed fool, because he sought out power. That is why it is his undoing.

"You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

That's why it is Faust.

Right. This is a side effect of the dark side. He is going past her and becoming more obsessed with power and control.

"The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52.

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi-wan. He knows that Padme will not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Which is why he trusts Palpatine more and more and the Jedi less and less. He's never given Anakin any reason to not trust him, whereas the Council has given him every reason to distrust them. And because Palpatine has painted the Jedi in a negative light, based on their actions, Anakin sees them as no different from the Sith, which was Palpatine's plan.

PALPATINE: "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power."

 

After Palpatine's tale of Darth Plagueis states:

"Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. "

Then later:

"I have the power to save the one you love"

So, it is very strongly implied that Palpatine has this power. In any case, it's arguing semantics. Palpatine was clearly suggesting he had this power, and Anakin had sufficient reason to belief this (like many viewers did). It's only after Anakin's pledges himself, that he starts backtracking, and saying we maybe able to figure it out together.

 

Guys, Anakin didn't turn solely because of Padme, it was also because he thought the Jedi were evil.

From day one, Anakin held animosity and doubt towards the Jedi. As they proceeded to strictly reign him in, stifle him, keep him away from his mother and prohibit his love for Padme, these feelings grew and grew. This treatment didn't make any sense to Anakin - he was seemingly being relegated to a role of an average Jedi when he was told he was something more than that, The Chosen One, which made him feel he wasn't reaching his full potential. To make matters worse, Palpatine, the father (besides Obi-Wan) he never had, validated these feelings, amplified them, and weeded out his dubiousness in numerous ways, one way being ego boosting, another being the reveal of a power the Jedi couldn't give him. As a result, his confusion and skepticism increased exponentially, and this fed into an impression that the Jedi were only out for themselves, and any shortcoming the Jedi enabled was only enabled out of a fear of his power, and how that power would threaten their authority; the Jedi plotting against Palpatine when Anakin believed he was taking necessary, decisive action only did this more. Then, once Mace tried to kill him, Anakin was fully convinced: the Jedi were plotting to take over, didn't care about the welfare of the Republic, only sought out power, and his entire way of life was a sham.

I think this is a pretty significant backing for why he converted.

 

I don't gain any impression before the turn that he thinks that the Jedi are 'only out for themselves' or anything like that; Palpatine largely works off Anakin's ego to say that if he turns to the dark side, he can get talents 'truly fitting for him'. Obi-wan says that Anakin is ahead of everyone else; that Anakin still feels held back shows that his greed is distorting his sense of perspective, and Palpatine uses this to create mistrust. During that turn, Anakin largely remains a fence-sitter; I.I.R.C., he does not really do anything to support either side until Palpatine brings up the Padme thing; then it's a case of any excuse, saying that he must remain alive because, 'I need him' to, you know, save his wife. The mistrust largely comes out of personal animosity and greed; and Palpatine makes him an offer he can't refuse. Of course, in scenes after the turn, he suddenly believes that the Jedi are evil, blah blah, but this came about because Lucas decided to re-write Anakin's motivation for turning after principal filming, and stuck the pick-ups into the film without modifying the later scenes.

 

The feeling that the Jedi wanted power more than anything wasn't immediately clear for Anakin imo, it became most prominent after Palpatine said stuff like, "All who gain power are afraid to loose it, even the Jedi." during the Opera house scene. After this occurrence, he started contemplating if this was the reason for why they're so strict, and why they're after Palpatine, and wrestles with this idea possibly invalidating the idea of the Jedi being selfless, an idea he was conditioned to believe for years on end, this being why he sits on the fence during Mace and Palpatine's confrontation. Once Mace decides to 'end this once and for all!', however, Anakin starts leaning towards 'the Jedi are selfish' stance, and starts believing the Jedi are evil after the deed of killing Mace is done. Anakin wasn't saying 'I should've known the Jedi were plotting to take over!' for no reason - he wouldn't say such things if he hadn't attempted to justify the Jedi's actions with 'the Jedi are taking over' in the past, and Palpatine wouldn't have had the lines discussing the same conclusion if the Jedi being crooked wasn't meant to be one Anakin's motivations.

You're right about the greed, though. Greed did in fact play a part in Anakin's downfall. Had he been more patient with the Jedi's grueling processes and waited for his time to shine, rather than demanding it at that very moment, perhaps things would've been different.

 

Well, I think that Anakin's 'official turn', as it were, was motivated by the need to save his wife: 'I need him!'. And in most scenes, his animosity is more a 'the Jedi council are mistreating me', and not a 'I'm having second thoughts about the Jedi way' type thing; effectively, his grudge is more with the people than with the ideas. You are right that there is the other aspect at play, but it is not as apparent and pops in and out whereas the greed and lose angle is there consistently; this is due to the way the film was put together, with the turn scene being revised late in production, so that the intended motive could be confused. You can read about it here, and I'd be very interested in seeing how the film was put together and the scenes played out originally.

 

Ok, fair enough.

PS: I like to think that Anakin never truly loved anyone in the Order but Obi-Wan. In his mind, it seemed that everyone else antagonized him, and besides for frustration, he merely felt neutral for them. Until he gets the idea in his mind that they're evil, of course.

 

To add, I never meant to say that Anakin disagreed with the Jedi way, in fact, he was growing fond of it for the most part (aside from the forbidding of attachment, perhaps a few other things). As you said, he thought the PEOPLE were evil, agreed with the ruleset, and was disturbed by how these people were implementing said ruleset, and defiling it in certain instances (Spying on the Chancellor, then attempting to kill him). At first, Anakin's objective as Darth Vader was to restore justice; then his fury and lust for power swallowed him whole, turning him into a maniac.

 

Palpatine never said that he was the Apprentice of Darth Plagueis. He carefully frames Plagueis as a legend and he only says, "My Master taught me everything about the dark side of the Force". He never said, "My Master was Darth Plagueis and he taught me everything he knew about the dark side of the Force." We only know that Plagueis was his Master. He didn't at the time. Not until much, much later.

He didn't hold animosity and doubt towards the Jedi Council until they started asking him to do things that went against the Jedi Code.

ANAKIN: "They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That’s treason!"


ANAKIN: "You’re asking me to do something against the Jedi Code. Against the Republic. Against a mentor . . . and a friend. That’s what’s out of place here. Why are you asking this of me?"


ANAKIN: "I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken."

The other things didn't bother him. He did have a sense of entitlement to him, but not because he was the Chosen One. He didn't even believe he was the Chosen One.

ANAKIN: "The Chosen One is a myth."


The entitlement had to do with feeling that he was better than any other Jedi, due to Palpatine's twisting. Yes, he did feel that the Jedi were betraying the Senate and Palpatine. But that's later on that he starts to believe that.

 

Where is the quote "The chosen one is a myth" from?

 

It comes from "Overlords."

THE FATHER: "When news reached me that the Chosen One had been found, I needed to see for myself."

ANAKIN: "The Chosen One is a myth."

 

HevyDevy

I think in TCW. I don't follow the EU, so I wouldn't know. All I know is that Anakin strived for 'a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi, a life of significance', as Palpatine puts it, and the only time he got a taste of that was when he's put on the Council. However, it's revealed he's only put on the Council to spy on the Chancellor anyway, so it's a moot point. Of course it was greedy for Anakin to be so dependent on pursuing a prestigious, powerful position as if he couldn't live without it, but the expectation for him to be more than average was still there, and it frustrated Anakin when he couldn't be.

 

I agree. He also felt he had a lot of untapped talent and potential that he wasn't permitted access to, that fed into his entitlement and want for greater strength, too.

Although, to refute another point you made, Anakin was irritated with the Order, which includes Obi-Wan, all throughout the prequels. The very fact that he frequently broke from their teachings (in the form of marrying Padme, being attached to his mother, ect) , and was under a great deal of stress when he didn’t, showed that he was at odds with them. Not to mention all the times he spoke up about it:

'I'm ready for the trials, but he feels I'm too unpredictable, he won't let me move on.'

'It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back!'

'How can you be on the Council and not be a master?'

'Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me. I feel lost.'

'More and more I get the feeling that I’m being excluded from the Council. I know there are things about the force they're not telling me.'

Anyways, we're getting off topic. We're now talking about Anakin's fall instead of the Code. Back to the Jedi Code, please.

 

That's a result of Palpatine spending years twisting Anakin's thought process and as a result, he wants to be the greatest of all Jedi.

Anakin's impatience is the reason he's irritated, not because he disagreed with their teachings. Irritation is not why he married Padme, but because he was greedy. He wanted his cake and eat too. With his mother, the attachment issue isn't because he disagrees with the Code. It is that he refuses to take the long and arduous task of training himself to let go. As Yoda told Ezra, it is a lifelong task to not bend fear into anger. Anakin wanted the quick and easy path towards a solution. A lot of his anger though, is directed at Obi-wan. Later on in ROTS, that is when he takes issue with the Council and the way things are.

This is related to the Code, so it is acceptable to talk about it and remain on topic.

 

Once again, I agree.

I agree that greed, a desire to take the quick and easy path, and an inability to let go played into his attachment to both Padme and his mother as well, but antagonism towards the Council was another factor imo. He expressed his disapproval of the limitations the Jedi set a few times:

'Why'd she have to die? Why couldn't I save her? I know I could have.'

This line illustrates how Anakin believes he should've been allowed to rescue his mother; the Jedi prohibited this, making the two of them against one another.

'I'm tired of all this deception, I don't care if they know we're married.'

Coming out in the open with their marriage would've been in protest to Jedi regulations, which is something Anakin was very aware of. If he was willing to commit an act like this, he must've had a problem with the restriction on attachment.

To refer to another quote I've mentioned before:
'Obi-Wan in the Council don't trust me.'

When he said this line, he wasn't just talking about not being granted the rank of master, or the task of eliminating Grievous, he was also talking about the Order's treatment of him altogether.

Understood.

 

On second thought, Anakin didn't hold a grudge against the Council at all times. It's absolutely true that he always knew he was being mistreated (for all the reasons I stated), and was aggravated because of it, but at first he wasn't sure of who to put the blame on. In AotC, it was Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan alone. Apparently, in Anakin's mind, Obi-Wan was the one stopping him from taking the trials, but in TPM, we learn that the Council decides if an Apprentice is ready for the trials, not their Master. Perhaps Obi-Wan took part responsibility, since he probably had to approach the Council before the trials commenced, but the Council were still the ones to have final say. Also according to Anakin, he couldn't rescue his mother due to Obi-Wan holding him back, yet Obi-Wan wasn't the one to lay down the law of no attachments, he's not responsible for this rule; once again, that's the Councils fault. The only thing that Obi-Wan was fully responsible for was being overly disciplinary and protective of him, in fear that he wouldn't train him right, and/or that he would become a liability. Yes, Anakin had an issue with this, and it was a problem (Mace and Yoda telling Obi-Wan to lay off Anakin confirms this), yet he still wasn't looking at the larger picture.

This flaw in his viewpoint was eventually re-directed in ROTS, and Palpatine set the record straight: 'You must sense what I've come to suspect, the Jedi Council want control of the Republic. They're planning to betray me. Search your feelings, you know, don't you?' *Anakin fidgets in his seat, a chord has been stricken* 'I know they don't trust you'.

It's probably around this time Anakin became weary that the Jedi Council might be corrupt, and had been the ones to blame, along with Obi-Wan, for his defects; their request to spy on Palpatine likely set this off, as you said darth-sinister, but it very well could have started earlier. This weariness grew as Palpatine distorted his thoughts, and then shifted to certainty when Mace went in for the kill.

 

Sorry for the triple post lol, just wanted to make corrections, I can't edit my post anymore. I hope everybody understands, I'm sure you will.

 

Qui-gon suggests that Obi-wan should be allowed to take the trials, thus it seems that the Master has to give the recommendation to the Council before they decide to begin them or not.

Obi-wan's worry with Anakin was that he wasn't reaching his potential. Not that he wasn't doing right by him, but that Anakin was no longer taking his training seriously. If there was worry, it would be that the Council would either never let Anakin advance or someone else would take on his training and not be compassionate towards him. Anakin's belief on being held back stems from his arrogance in thinking he was ready and thus he blames Obi-wan for not seeing it. His impatience is worse than Luke's because he doesn't have the same trouble believing in the Force that Luke does. Because Luke has trouble believing, even though there is impatience, he is able to work harder to get to where he is when he's on Cloud City. Anakin had surpassed that point and was more in line with Obi-wan at Naboo. This is why Obi-wan and Yoda are able to view Luke's progress before leaving as a very positive thing.

But Yoda and Mace don't tell Obi-wan to lay off. They just tell Obi-wan to have faith in him, but Obi-wan's concerns were justified given what happens when given his own unsupervised assignment. The Council is arrogant enough to think that Anakin could handle it, when we ultimately know that he couldn't. And it is ironic given that they say that arrogance was a growing problem in the Order.

 

Anakin not taking him seriously definitely was another concern of his, good of you to point that out. But, I do think that he feared not measuring up to the monumental task of training 'the Chosen One', and that he couldn't fulfill Qui-Gon's expectations of him.

Ultimately, Obi-Wan does in a way fail, and he's the first to admit it. "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you.".

Which, in effect, was a way of telling him to loosen up. They were basically letting him know that he's arrogant for not giving Anakin room to breathe and recognizing his 'exceptional skills'. Though Obi-Wan's concerns were legitimate, as you said (if the Jedi were so adamant about there being no attachments, they definitely should've been more cautious about sending Padme and Anakin together alone), that's not to say that he wasn't a little harsh on him.

 

Adding to a previous post:

 

If Anakin had pulled his head out of his own ass, he'd had known that he's given Obi-wan and the council good reasons for not trusting him. He murdered both the Tuskens and Count Dooku in secret and then he marries Padme and gets her pregnant. Trust has to work both ways and Anakin has broken the Jedi code too many times and is lying to everyone about it so his actions have demonstrated to the council that he's not worthy enough to be on the council or be given the rank of master.

 

The Council doesn't know that he did that, otherwise he would have never made it to be a Jedi. He does see the mistrust, but he thinks of it only as they don't give him the same unconditional trust that he was giving them. The Council preaches openness and honesty, but then start doing dishonest things. It becomes do as I say and not do as I do and that bothers him. The fact is that the Jedi Council are doing the things they claimed were only the things that Sith do, or politicians and yet, try to act as if their hands were clean.

 

They all treated Anakin like poop for the most part, so they got what was coming to them sadly.