The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    .......First they volunteer up with the Idea Without even consulting Anakin , then "request" him to take advantage of his close friendship with the Chancellor and Spy for them. how about including the "Chosen One"?. if the Council want Anakin to betray the Jedi Code and a Mentor , why not bring him in on it. it Shook Anakin's faith in the Jedi, to be taken Outside the Council and asked to do , what appears to be an isideous deed . it's ironic that although the Jedi Want Anakin to be selfless in this matter,this was a selfish and Un Jedi like move. and further Played into Palpatines hands. then to top it off the Council chooses not to Make Anakin a Master. seems small payback for fighting as a hero in the war and for the sneaky an unprecidented request they make of Anakin. Having Anakin "Off the record" Spy on Palpatine , was a treasonous offence. and if Anakin was caught or Exposed , do we know if the Jedi would even Support him?.Anakin could have been labelled a traitor . Trust is a two way street. what do you think. ?
  2. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    No they did not insult him.....he just doesn't understand Master level Jedi business yet.........and never will
  3. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    what?, you don't call using him to spy "off the record", and then not telling him what is going on "using" him?. they don't evem trust him to know what's going on. they played a gamble with Anakin's name, reputation, and maybe life. sounds like "using" to me.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Anakin wasn't insulted, he just thought he was. He's not ready to be a Master. He might never had been ready. Until he let go of his attachments and controlled his emotions, he would never be fit to sit on the Council. He's egomanical. And his outburst in the Council proves their point. A real Jedi wouldn't get angry at being denied the rank of Master. A real Jedi would be humble and gracious. A real Jedi would be proud that he's at least sitting on the Council.

    If he really pulled his head out of his butt for five seconds, he'd realize that Palpatine was using him. That he planned for this to happen.
  5. MasterVodo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 1
    Anakin is a newly ordained Knight of the Jedi order. This is NOT a democratic orgainization. It is his duty as a Knight to do as he is told no matter what. He should have enough sence to respect the wisdom of the masters. Perhaps if he did, he would be made a master! You wouldn't expect a common army footsoldier to be able to sit in on a meeting with his generals and plan his own orders would you?
  6. obiwankoti Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2005
    star 2
    You wouldn't expect a common army footsoldier to be able to sit in on a meeting with his generals and plan his own orders would you?

    I HARDLY CALL THE POSTERBOY AND HERO OF THE REPUBLIC A COMMON SOLDIER.
    and since they only appointed Anakin so he can spy on Palpatine, I would say they used him. and that is an insult to any Jedi. i mean come on they don't even tell him what the [lan is. just that he must do it .
  7. SAND-CRAWLER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    I would tend to agree that Anakin was insulted, in the sense that he was lied to. When he found out he was going to be on the council, he automatically assumed that he would be a master because everyone who has ever been on the council had been granted the rank of master for it. Not granting Anakin the rank of master creates an exception to the rule which insults Anakin because he is the one that suffers for the council setting a double standard. The council should have either denied Anakin's apointment to the council because they didn't want to grant him the rank of master, or they should have given him the rank of master when the put him on the council. If your boss told you that you were going to be put on the board of directors in your company but not allowed to influence any decisions and just forced to sit there and take notes, you'd be pretty insulted too. I know I would.

    Actually it's more like you wouldn't tell your most promissing commander that they were being promoted to the elite "Council of Generals" and not give him the rank of a "general". Again, it's the double standard that's insulting. Everyone who has been on the council for a Millenium has been granted the rank of master. Anakin is somehow the exception to the rule. Big mistake by the council. Making exception to rules in leadership always brings rebellion.
  8. MasterVodo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 1
    Posterboy or not, Anakin IS just a knight. A Jedi is not supposed to seek personal acclaim or glory. ("Adventure, heh! Excitment, heh! A Jedi craves not these things.) It is exactly this arrogance that holds Anakin back and eventually causes his downfall. He is unable to detach himself from his emotions and see the wisdom of others.

    Yes, this circumstance would make any normal person feel insulted, but Anakin is a Jedi ("I'm a Jedi, I KNOW I'm better than this!") and should therfore let it go and give himself to the Force and to his superiors.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Palpatine was the one who wanted Anakin on the Council. It was his fault for starting that. Anakin was going to try to be patient and wait until the Council was ready to make him a member.

    As pointed out, Anakin's motivations for wanting to be on the Council are wrong. Just cause he's a hero doesn't mean that he's deserving of it. Obi-wan got to sit on the Council because of his experience as a Knight, his ability to control his emotions, and his understanding of the Force.

    He also needed to remain objective. If the Jedi have reason for suspecting something is wrong with Palpatine, then he should've taken them at face value and not let his personal feelings get in the way.
  10. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Deny him the rank of Master: You get the same reaction as we get in the film, "how dare they". Anakin never asked to be a Master, or on the council; but he wanted it. It's Palpatines job now, since he is a Sith Lord, to make Anakin realize that the Council doesn't think he's ready to be a Master. Realistically, even Anakin knows he's not ready; but when it's shoved in his face like that, he reacts. It's in his nature.

    Grant him the rank of Master: Slap everybody who earned it in the face, reinforce Palpatine's notion that Anakin is the greatest thing since blue milk and have Anakin as a Master.........who still isn't able to save his wife as a Jedi.

    What the Jedi did wasn't insulting; it was a smart thing, Anakin's just too blind to see it.

    - O_F
  11. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    The council is forced to take anakin aboard...they cant refuse an executive order from the supreme chancellor, especially during times of war. they accept the appointment because they dont want to cause trouble and because they want to know what palpatine is up to.

    being a master is a whole different scenario. knight or master, anakin can still fulfill his duties as palpatine's emissary and spy. being a knight doesnt impeed either duty...so why make him a master if he doesnt deserve it? posterboy or not...it isnt power that defines a master, its wisdom, self restraint, humility and the mastery of one's emotions. anakin had none of these...why give him a title if he doenst embody a single one of these qualities?

    as sinister said...if he would just pull his head out of his anas he would relaize this and accept their decision with humility.

    heck, that would have been a great way to prove to them your ready, but by lashing out as he does, he proves he doenst deserve the title.
  12. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    I've been wondering about this myself. I think the boy was slighted, and the Jedi Council would have been better off to go ahead and give Anakin the rank of Master, especially if they wanted him to spy on the Chancellor and risk treason. I mean, the Jedi end up getting wiped out anyway because of this. Had they granted Anakin the rank of Master the Jedi Order would have been better off. Anakin was clearly granted the seat on the Council so they could use him. Forget that he rescued the Chancellor. Forget that his victory over Count Dooku was more impressive than Kenobi's victory over Maul. The Jedi Council had nothing to lose by granting Anakin the rank of Master. If fact, they had more to gain.

    It wasn't a good decision at all.
  13. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Please explain how making him a Master would solve his "Padme" issue; since that is the reason he betrays them, since that's the reason Sidious lives on while Windu perishes with a knife in his back.

    - O_F
  14. SithOWNtheJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 3
    Both Palpatine and the Jedi clearly used Anakin, Jedi messed up
  15. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6

    The only reason Mace gets a knife in the back is because he went in for the kill instead of allowing he and Anakin to take Palaptine into custody. As far as Padme, this was a point where he was torn between the Jedi and the Sith, a crucial moment in the PT. Anakin was more on Palpatine's side for the reasons I explained, not because of his needing Padme to live. Had he been granted the rank of Master, he would have been allowed to go into the Jedi archieves and locate information on how to preserve life(that's what ROTS novel says), but since he was a Knight, he couldn't do that. He was totally denied the rank of Master Jedi, which increased his dilema even more. So, once Palpatine makes that offer to him, the dark side of the Force is the only way.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Anakin ignored his destiny, which was to destroy the Sith, because of his selfishness and greed. Had he done what he should've he would've been able to save Padme. And he might've gotten the rank of Master by proving that he was worthy. Instead, he made the wrong choice and paid dearly for it.
  17. PyrhanaJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 1
    There is no insult inherrent in being made a member of the Jedi Council...

    As there are many Jedi Masters who exist, whilst not on the Council, and there are at most 12 Council members at any given time, what was bestowed upon him was actually a greater honor.
    From the movie we find, obviously, that it is not a rock-solid rule that only "Jedi Masters" may sit amongst the Council; even Palpatine recognized that this could happen.
    PADMELUVA: Jedi Council does what it wants; they pleased Palpatine because they chose too. This is itterated in the movie[, ROTS].

    The insult for being accepted on the Council merely to spy on the Supreme Chancellor is entirely different from the imagined insult of not being named/called "Master".

    Does anyone argue the fact that Anakin was unjustly upset about this mere issue of rank? That his pride just about swallowed him up and made him look like a big cry baby in front of all his new found peers amongst the Jedi Council?
    I believe Obi-Wan was able to talk sense into him about this little issue: Anakin's short Jedi career was unique, to say the least.

    Also, Anakin was more than prepared to be the Jedi everyone wanted him to be, but he wanted more: NOT THE TITLE "JEDI MASTER"; he wanted to save Padme, whether he was a Jedi Master, or not.
  18. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Had he been granted the rank of Master, he would have been allowed to go into the Jedi archieves and locate information on how to preserve life(that's what ROTS novel says), but since he was a Knight, he couldn't do that.

    I don't think being a Master would help Anakin at all. Its clear that the light side does not have any way of maintaining physical life, so Anakin would not find anything in the archives to help him. His situation would be the same- only by joining the dark side does he have a chance of saving Padme.
  19. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    This is something that Anakin really wanted, and even Obi-Wan said as much to Anakin after he was upset over what the Council.

    Anakin, somewhat like Luke did not realize where he was. Even though he did not receive the rank of Master, he was allowed to sit on the Council as a Jedi Knight. Though it had never been done before, and was not the best of circumstances as to how it came about, Anakin had it made in terms of his position as a Jedi. He needed only to be patient, and do the right thing.

    He was also so focused on a future(Padme dying)that he was not focused on the present, of that that was happening around him, particularly in regards to Palpy's manipulations and deceptions

    If he had only been patient, focused on the present, and fulfill his destiny as the Chosen in exposing and destroying the Sith, and that being Sidious, then I have no doubt he would have become a Master upon fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen One, then he would have been free to pursue finding a way to keep people from dying, particularly Padme. But if he had done the right thing, this need to keep her alive would not have transpired anyway.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  20. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Palpy playing a game with the Council, and using reverse psych, IMO. Anakin assumed, when Palpy told him of his appointment as the Chancellor's representative on the Council, that the title of Master went along with it.
    The Council resented what they saw as the Chancellor's interference. And Anakin, as is his wont, doesn't think beyond his immediate desire for the title and resents the Council for their decision. He falls into another one of Palpy's clever setups, and then blames the wrong person.

    The Toyfare ROTS parody had it perfectly - "How dare you not give me a position I clearly haven't earned!"
  21. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    I can understand why they didn't grant him the rank of Master, but I think they could have given him a special hat to wear instead. That might have made him feel better.
  22. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Which in the ToyFare parody, is a dunce cap labeled "Not a Master"
    ("Good one, that is" says Yoda)
  23. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    When he found out he was going to be on the council, he automatically assumed that he would be a master because everyone who has ever been on the council had been granted the rank of master for it

    Ah, but the Council did not appoint him to the Council. They accepted him as Palpatine's PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE - he was there on Palpatine's behalf, not for himself. For those who accept stuff from the novel, Palpatine had taken over control of the Jedi (through the Senate).

    Anakin did not deserve the rank of master, (and I am NOT saying he had done nothing noteworthy).
  24. SAND-CRAWLER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    No, what the Jedi did cost them all their lives. They decided to make a compromise...and Anakin paid for it...which in turn they paid for it through Anakin/Vader. The issue here is the integrity of leadership, not whether or not Anakin deserved to be a master. Sure, Anakin wanted to be a master, but is that a bad thing to desire? Is it wrong to be want to be a president of a company one day, or even of a nation? No. It's actually a GOOD thing to desire leadership. Sure, Anakin was a bit immature, but that's not something that can't be dealt with in time.

    The real tradgedy is that for a mellinia, everyone who has been on the council had been a Jedi master. Everyone knows this. Anakin knows this, Obiwan knows this, Mace knows this...and yet 1000 years of tradition are all of sudden thrown out when it comes to Anakin. Again, the council should have either accepted him on the council AND granted him the rank of master or not accepted him on the council at all. Sure, Palpatine had a say in all of it, but the Jedi should have stuck to their traditions and either done one or the other with Anakin.

    You have to understand that the ONLY reason that the Jedi put Anakin on the council was because of Anakin's relationship to Palpatine. BIIIIIIIGGGGG mistake! What's insulting is that Anakin knows that he's on the council ONLY because he's friends with Palpatine and not because of anything he's done. That's actually really insulting when you think about it. Anakin's not being rewarded for his accomplishments or for who he is for that matter, he's being rewarded only because he's close to Palpatine. If I were Anakin, I'd be totally p.o'd to know that I was serving an organization that rewards others only if it benefits them first. Again, it comes down to the integrity of leadership. The council decided to compromise their traditions with Palpatine knowing that Anakin would be the one feeling the pain of all of it. The council shouldn't have compromised. We know that Obiwan didn't agree with the council's decision, but if Quigon was still alive and on the council I believe he would have resigned at the decision to use Anakin as a tool. It's pretty insulting knowing you're only on the Jedi council as a tool for others to use.

    Anakin even tried to offer advice on who should go to Utapau and they blatantly shut him down. I guess the council never heard of the A.C.E. principle in leadership:

    1.Affirm
    2.Correct
    3.Encourage

    When Anakin said "The Chancellor has requested that I lead the compaign", Mace should have said "(Affirm)Anakin, you are a highly skilled Jedi knight that has done greater things than we ever did at your age (correct) but unfortunately, this assignment requires a master with more experience. (Encourage) You've got your entire life ahead of you and you'll get many more opportunities for missions like this in the future. In time, you might be the greatest of all Jedi". Instead, Yoda only said "A master with more experience is needed" ie "You
  25. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin was placed on the Council purely as Palpatine's representative. The Jedi are the ones who will decide when a knight is ready to take on the mantle of master - not the chancellor.

    Anakin was a sell-out.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.