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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. TheCRZA

    TheCRZA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    except from what we're told in the film, it's the first time it's ever been done

    Difficult times call for difficult decicions, and sacrifices, Anakin included.

    Some say they "used" Anakin to spy on the chancellor. He's a Jedi.
    It's his job to serve. As a Jedi, he was given a mandate to keep
    an open eye for the preservation of the Republic and the Jedi Order.

    Had he remained loyal, both the Republic and Jedi Order would have survived.

    I'd say the results of his decisions prove he was not ready for the council.
    Anakin had not mastered himself, how could he hope to be a Jedi Master?

    Do you think his status as a Master on the Council would have changed the outcome?

    It was an honor for Anakin to serve the council, but instead of looking
    at it from a broader perspective, he thought about "me" and the now.

    It's not an insult that Anakin wasn't ready and they didn't pucker up to him about it.

    EDIT:
    Anakin may be both powerful and a Jedi... but he's not a powerful Jedi until he chucks
    Palpatine down the shaft in ROTJ and becomes one with the force.
     
  2. Darth_Ramsis

    Darth_Ramsis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Yoshi


    Not making Anakin a master is a mistake indicative of Jedi's general poor handling of the chosen one throughout. They used him as a pawn, just like Sidious, except Sidious is better at chess than Mace


    It's funny along that train of thought the Jedi treated Anakin like you would a pawn while Sidious treated Anakin as you would the Queen or other powerful pieces.
     
  3. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    First off, to quote the l33t version of the ROTS trailer, Mace says "You can hang with us, but we still think you're a n00b."

    Secondly
    TheCRZA

    Ah, you make an excellent point, but what I'm thinking is this: whatever the reason, the Jedi should have made the decision based on whether they really thought he should be on the council. So, naturally, if every Jedi who was put on the council has been a Master, he would expect it. Thus, he was rightly insulted, though I agree with you that Anakin shouldn't be on the council in the first place. He would have had a terrible padawan! I mean, think about it, it's possible that he killed this hypothetical Padawan during his raid on the Jedi Temple![face_skull]
     
  4. TheCRZA

    TheCRZA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    It's funny along that train of thought the Jedi treated Anakin like you would a pawn while Sidious treated Anakin as you would the Queen or other powerful pieces.

    Sidious coddled and cozened Anakin because emotionality is his downfall.
    The Jedi expected ego and sentimentality to be behind Anakin.
    They didn't treat him like a pawn, they treated him like someone set on
    a spartan life of service.
    It's like a samurai that complains about bushido or a monk complaining
    about living in poverty.
     
  5. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Hey CRZA .:)


    o.k. The fact that Anakin should not be on the Council, is irrelevant. whether he is ready or not is also irrelevant. he was not Incorrect in thinking that it would mean being made a Master. the Jedi screwed this up by asking What they did (spying) , and Deny what they are going to give him (master)eventually , all to spite Palpatine. Sideous must have found it easy to plan this takeover. he laughs at Yoda as he beats him down in ROTS. the Jedi were predictable to say the least. they should have known better.
     
  6. TheCRZA

    TheCRZA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    he was not Incorrect in thinking that it would mean being made a Master

    I guess I always thought that one was a Master first, and then a Master
    appointed to the council. Qui Gon was a master and not on the council, right?
    Just as Cin Drallig and Quinlan Vos in the EU?
     
  7. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Hmm, but doesn't Anakin say that it's never been done before?

    I should just check the DVD.
     
  8. TheCRZA

    TheCRZA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    Anakin says it, but Plo Koon is on the council in TPM and he's not a master. Right?
    Perhaps serving on the council and being attached to the council are not
    the same thing. Anakin may just be wrong.
    Or I just may be wrong.
    Or, I just may be Anakin.
     
  9. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Yeah , but QuiGon was not on the council and not a MASTER . that's different. normally , yes you would be a master first. though i do believe that i read something in the Insider a few years back of a member of TPM council was not a Master. i can't remember who though.


    Plus Anakin say's "How can you be on the Council, and not be a Master?" sounds like it has not happened before.
     
  10. TheCRZA

    TheCRZA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    Hey back Duggy [face_peace]

    The Database calls Qui Gon a Master, and he had a Padawan.
    Oddly enough, the database also refers to Plo Koon as a Master...
    I think this is a new development, don't recall him being a master before.
     
  11. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Hmm, perhaps Anakin was just using hyperbole then.
     
  12. mjerome3

    mjerome3 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 11, 2000
    It was a difficult situation. You have Palpatine, Anakin, and the Jedi Council. Palpatine wants Anakin to believe everything he says. Although the Jedi are right and think Palpatine is a criminal, still, he's the Supreme Chancellor, and they have to take extreme caution as to what they are doing.

    Anakin Skywalker was given the rank of Jedi Knight, right? So, he's a Knight, and so he hasn't had the time to train a padawan of his own yet. Still, he's on the Council. He didn't have a voice in Jedi matters. He was only there as the voice of the Supreme Chancellor. Still, look at what are asking him to do. Look at the reprucussions behind such a task as spying. Not only that, but you have Palpatine whispering in Anakin's ear about how the Jedi are planning to betray him and he gives the reasons why. So you have Palpatine vs. the Jedi, the Jedi vs. Palpatine with Anakin stuck in the middle of it. Anakin is supposed to uphold the orders of the Jedi, but how many Jedi spyed on the Chancellor of the Republic within the past thousand generations? Probably none.

    Anakin did his duty. He reported Palpatine to Mace Windu. Maybe he would have been given the rank of Master for reporting Palpatine. We'll never know. All I'm saying is that the way the Jedi did things, it makes them appear as the criminal even if they were not.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, Qui-gon didn't have the urge to slice up the Council, starting with Mace Windu. As the novelization points out when he thinks, "Vaapad this..." right before Obi-wan speaks up. However, Qui-gon is not the most attuned to the will of the Force, because as Lucas says, it's clear that he made a mistake. That he made a dangerous decisions, but in the end, it turns out to be correct as Anakin is the Chosen One and finally fulfills his destiny. The Council wasn't being shortsighted. Anakin was being a spoiled brat. Bite the hand that feeds you. Good way to prove you're ready to be a Master.

    In the novelization, it wasn't the Sith Holocrons that he was after. It was the texts and other information sources about visions. However, it's only for the book to tie into the eu. Not in the film.


    BTW, it was Ki-Adi-Mundi who was a Knight in TPM, yet on the Council. However, this will have to be retconned out, as the movie comes first. Unless Lucasbooks says that Anakin didn't know that Ki-Adi was a Knight then. Plo Koon had been a Master for a while.
     
  14. jedi_prime

    jedi_prime Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 30, 2005
    OK, I am chiming in again!

    As I understand it the organization is made up of Padawans, Knights and Masters. Knights and Masters may both take Padawan learners. Masters are the pool of candidates from which members of the Council are selected.

    Think of it as being similar to the Catholic Church: the Pope is selected from among the Archbishops and Cardinals, which are, in turn, higher in rank than the priests, which comprise the rank and file of the Church.

    So, in order to be considered for a position on the Council, a Jedi must have attained the rank of Master. Anakin was not a Master, and could not be considered for such a position.

    Sidious bypassed all of this by making an appointment directly, via his power as Chancellor. This circumvention of normal procedures and protocol is what gave Anakin false hope about attaining Master status. Sidious could NOT grant such status to Anakin, he could only request that Anakin be allowed on the Council. It is for the Jedi Order, and the Jedi Order alone, to decide which Knights ascend to Master level, and then which Masters will serve on the Council...

    As an aside, it was my understanding that Anakin was NOT a full member of the Council, rather he was there as an observer. He did not get a vote, etc... right?
     
  15. Clone_Commander169

    Clone_Commander169 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2005
    ANAKIN IS A GOD! lol and he should have been master :p
     
  16. -maynard-

    -maynard- Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2005
    this make too much sense
     
  17. Darth Kruel

    Darth Kruel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2000
    Correct. He was just a voice for the Supreme Chancellor, nothing more. He should have realized that. But then again, he should have been given the rank of Master, given the incredible assignment that they presented him with.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Here endeth your lesson.
     
  19. NoCloneTheories

    NoCloneTheories Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Of course they insulted him.
     
  20. Darth_Ramsis

    Darth_Ramsis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2005
    The assignment of spying on the Chancellor alone should have told Anakin they trusted him but hindsight is always 20/20.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Care to elaborate?
     
  22. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2003
    "The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master...."

    Yeah, poor Anakin! Boo-hoo...
     
  23. jvberggren

    jvberggren Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    anakin embarrased himself reacting the way he did.
    this is not about anakin, even if anakin thinks so.
    the order isn't there to nurture anakin's ego.

    it's there to do a job -securing peace.
    if anakin had not been so self-centered he would realize that he was doing the order a great favour -one that would shortly be rewarded.

    but patience is not one of anakin's strengths.
    he wants everything now and for himself!

    so if the order insulted anakin it's because anakin took it personally -thinking that his needs were more important than the needs of the republic.
     
  24. Drac39

    Drac39 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Anakin was not ready to get a seat on the council master or not...

    He was a terrible Jedi
     
  25. Lando_Plenty

    Lando_Plenty Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Let me just say that I like Qui-gon, and I like the Jedi's mentality in the OT. But I don't like the Jedi at all in ROTS. Sure, they are technically the good guys, but this movie is a big gray area. In this movie they use Anakin to acquire their own goals, just as Palpatine did.

    Their entire goal is to destroy the Sith, and they were so blindly going after it. They would use Anakin to spy on a 'friend', and when that plan backfired, they decided to take him out immediately, without even a second thought as to why he turned to the dark side in the first place. They have a certain 'fight fire with fire' mentality in ROTS that backfires badly.

    I do think however that giving him the rank of Master wouldn't have made much of a difference (it would probably play into Palpatine's hands just as much as if Anakin didn't get the title). I also feel that Anakin was not ready to be a Master. Palpy knew this too. He knew that he was setting Anakin up for rejection from the Council and was waiting with open arms when Anakin came crying back to him. Yes, it was a bit insulting, which is exactly why Palpy engineered it in the first place....The Council break tradition by not making Anakin a Master, but expect Anakin to oblige them when they want to break tradition and have him spy on Palpatine in an 'off the record mission'. ...I don't think the denial of the Master rank was the real problem here, it was that little off-the-record mission. THAT was the one that Anakin couldn't seem to get his head around.

    Someone also mentioned the Jedi's poor leadership skills when it came to Anakin. He was such a delicate case, yet they fumbled with the ball everytime it was thrown into their court and they didn't even realise it.
     
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