The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Actually Yosh, I think that would be the Dr. Phil approach,
which I guess rather supports your point

 

thank you for playing the dr phil here anyways. it might help support the issue that it's not about the truth of the statement but rather about the emotions that are behind it.

plus, i think the part about not mourning is seriously off. it's by mourning that we actually let go at all.

 

Right, people like Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura peddle the "tough love" approach, which is exactly what alienates human beings. People eat it up though, because they love being told that they've been bad and need to change their ways. Naughty naughty! Don't have any negative emotions, you might seem too human!

 

Maybe some research into various cultural responses to death would enlighten folks. I think many people misunderstand terms like attachment, mourning, etc. in the context Lucas puts them in and defines them.

Yoda is not suggesting you should not care about loved ones or feel grief. He is saying that you should celebrate the life of those who pass and not allow negative energy to consume you. Usually, when we grieve or mourn for loved ones who have passed, it is not thinking of them as much as it is thinking of ourselves and our loss. Our thoughts are inward. Many people focus on guilt, regret, and other negative emotions that prevent them from finding peace.

Some cultures do not speak of the dead, because the dead cannot rest in peace when they are continually mourned. Some cultures give a period of time for mourning and then prepare themselves to let go.

According to Yoda, death is not a terrible thing in itself - it is a positive thing where one is unified with the Force. He is telling Anakin, instead of being led by negative energy, regret, guilt, fear and torment - let go of all of that and rejoice for the one who has passed. Honor their memory in his actions - be positive, etc. Feel the Unifying Force and draw strength from the eternal connection.

Anakin's entire mindset is based on the negative. There is nothing positive coming from him.

 

Which is precisely why he needed help. And precisely why Yoda's advice was ineffectual.

 

i think i know enough about mythology myself to understand that we struggle with death all our lives and for ever and ever.

you're doing a nice little conjecture here with explaining how yoda means all these things and i see your point.

but then through this you admit that this was the best yoda could do, anakin being open or not.

the pain of losing someone is still part of the process and feeling it is, too.

as to anakin focusing on the negative: do you take that from the ever incompetent master kenobi?
i don't see it, sorry, he wants to love, he wants recognition, he wants to enjoy his life because he is tired of deception and the war... i don't think there has been much happy stuff going on in his life so far. he was never much in control of it, he was never much allowed anything... he isn't allowed to openly marry or see his mom...

well, i guess, it accounts for a pretty ****ty life.

and then, when he does turn to the order for help, he's told that his problem is easily solved by not doing anything much at all. except rejoice that we have it in the first place.

 

Yes, but the point is that Yoda doesn't have all the facts.
Nor does Yoda have a wife with a kid (two in fact) on the way.

I think the argument that can be made is that from Anakin's perspective,
who is Yoda to tell him about attachment.
Furthermore, Yoda is obviously from a long-lived species, whereas humans
are not. Thus, relationships have more intrinsic value to humans because
we are so ephemeral. The Jedi (mostly alien) seem to think that human Jedi
can just wish their humanity away.

The track record of human jedi in the late republic is not very good.
Dooku - Sith
Anakin - Sith
Obi Wan - a failure as a mentor
Mace - walked blindly into a trap

 

Maybe some research into various cultural responses to death would enlighten folks. I think many people misunderstand terms like attachment, mourning, etc. in the context Lucas puts them in and defines them.

Yeah and many cultures place NO value on life either. should i adopt that philosophy as well. we are talking about the Jedi culture.

Yoda is not suggesting you should not care about loved ones or feel grief. He is saying that you should celebrate the life of those who pass and not allow negative energy to consume you. Usually, when we grieve or mourn for loved ones who have passed, it is not thinking of them as much as it is thinking of ourselves and our loss. Our thoughts are inward. Many people focus on guilt, regret, and other negative emotions that prevent them from finding peace.

Why don't you just admit that it was not good for Anakin?. cause that's what we are talking about. if he can't adjust, just ignore it?.don't keep trying to see why?. they just won't see.

Some cultures do not speak of the dead, because the dead cannot rest in peace when they are continually mourned. Some cultures give a period of time for mourning and then prepare themselves to let go.

yeah , but this is not some Primitive tribe in the Amazon or something. this is the Jedi Order. the supposedly most enlightened organization and Focus of knowledge in the Galaxy. do you think that if someone takes your picture they are stealing your soul?. if not you'll see why this argument has no bearing.

 

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[b]Yes, but the point is that Yoda doesn't have all the facts.
Nor does Yoda have a wife with a kid (two in fact) on the way[/b]
.

No but he does talk about attachments and they being a shadow of jealousy and greed. "YOu will not take her from me."

[b]I think the argument that can be made is that from Anakin's perspective,
who is Yoda to tell him about attachment.[/b]
Well why would Anakin think something like that? Who is Yoda not to tell him that you keep going on the path that you travel and you will see the truth which is what?


[hr][b]Furthermore, Yoda is obviously from a long-lived species, whereas humans
are not. Thus, relationships have more intrinsic value to humans because
we are so ephemeral. The Jedi (mostly alien) seem to think that human Jedi
can just wish their humanity away. [/b]

Who said anything about wishing their humanity away. What did YOda say exactly that supports this notion?


[hr][b]The track record of human jedi in the late republic is not very good.[/b]

Dooku - Sith - Correction a dead SITH
Anakin - Sith -Correction a SITH that loses his wife, his brotherhood,his children and his physical prowess.
Obi Wan -_Correction a Master who tried and succeeded in making Anakin a knight who through Anakin's own vices fell even though he takes responsibility like Anakin shouldve done

 

well said, duggy. *claps enthusiastically even though it's high time for bed*

 

DUGGY, how am I supposed to admit to something that is patently false? Anakin does learn to let go. He finally understands Yoda. Luke learns to let go; he finally understands Yoda as well.

Embrace what Lucas is teaching or continue to reject it. It's your choice. But don't pretend the saga is something it is not. Lucas' message is clear - in the films and in his interviews.

Yoda NEVER tells Anakin just to forget it. Neither does Obi-Wan in AOTC. They tell him not to worry, but to train himself over time to let go.

IT'S A PROCESS...

You don't instantly become trained - it takes time, patience, commitment, dedication, thoughtful meditation.

Anakin focused all his energy on how to follow his fears to the opposite conclusion. He meditated on his desires and attachment. He could be using his energy and tapping into the Force in a positive way, like he is taught. Instead, he probes the Force for power to control and dominate the things he wished to possess.

Lucas is teaching some very complex, deep issues in Star Wars. We understand Anakin because we experience fear. But we are all capable of overcoming fear.

 

and yet luke is able to face up to his fear where anakin isn't and all you pinpoint it to is that luke is more patient than his dad, or more capable or whatever.
i believe you ignore lucas' way of making it clear that it's also due to upbringing.

 

DUGGY, how am I supposed to admit to something that is patently false? Anakin does learn to let go. He finally understands Yoda. Luke learns to let go; he finally understands Yoda as well.


But you already said pages ago that the Jedi could have done some things differently. or i must be mistaken. nobody is trying to get you to say the Jedi are Bad, or even Wrong. just that they made mistakes. they can make mistakes with Anakin, and still be right in the War against the Sith. surely you can see that.

 

"YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."

Where does it say that he needs to train himself "over time"? Yoda doesn't say that. He says not to mourn or miss people that die. Right now, Anakin doesn't have the luxury of training himself over time. Padme's death is imminent. If he hasn't learned these lessons by now, couldn't we say that the Jedi have not properly addressed this problem?

If you believed you had a chance to save the life of your wife who was pregnant with your child, what would you do? Would you just let go of her and let her die?

If she did die, would you mourn her death? If you answered yes, then you're not following Yoda's advice. Would you miss her? Again, if you say yes, then you are not following Yoda's advice either. Sometimes it's helpful to put yourself in the place of the character you're discussing.

Think about it in a broad sense; do people mourn the dead? Do they miss the dead? Are these natural feelings to have about someone who was close to you, but has now died?

Yoda's advice is not realistic, and it's not helpful.

 

yoshifett, training is not defined as instant transformation. C'mon, man. Everyone knows that time and practice are conditions that are implied in the term to train.

 

I'll give you that, but you avoided the rest of my post.

 

Sorry, not trying to ignore you. A lot to respond to tonight.

If I dreamed of my wife dying in childbirth... well, we're going to have to make a lot of assumptions. In real world terms, I guess I would try to get her medical attention, something I think Anakin and Padme didn't do in order to hide the pregnancy.

I know I can't cheat death. If I knew for a fact she was going to die in childbirth, of course I couldn't stop it. Would I grieve? Of course. Would I miss her? Of course.

Do I understand Yoda? Of course.

See, I wouldn't let my sorrow consume me, nor would I allow it to burden my children. I guess you can choose how to mourn and instead of choosing to live a personal hell where I obsess over getting her back or wondering if I could have done something different, I would celebrate her life, live how I think she would want me to live, create an environment of peace and happinesss for my kids and not be bitter. I would rest assured that I would see her again someday because that is my belief.

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying it is the best path and one I would have to concentrate on and learn.

Yoda is teaching Anakin the best mental state to achieve, the positive one. But he's not suggesting it would be instant. He must train himself to achieve it.

 

But that's not what Yoda says! He says not to mourn them, not to miss them. He doesn't say "Mourn and miss them for a while and then move on slowly."

If your wife was going to die, and you believed that you could save her, would you just let her go?

 

Well you asked if my wife was going to die in childbirth what would I do. I am neither a doctor nor do I have the power to cheat death. If I relied on the advice of professionals who told me there was nothing to be done, I would accept it and it would be terribly difficult.

Now if you are stating I have the power to save her of course I would. The example is kind of off because in Anakin's case he doesn't have the power nor does he believe he has the power - he is searching for it which is not the same thing.

And again, Yoda is telling Anakin the state of mind he should try to achieve. He is trying to lighten Anakin's burden by telling him to focus on the positive. He's telling him not to fight the inevitible and be at peace. There is nothing wrong with this. We all want peace. I don't think anyone wants to mourn forever and I don't think anyone wants to mourn at all.

Even though mourning is a natural reaction, Lucas is teaching that we can overcome grief and focus on the positive if we stop being selfish.

 

Eh, this is an intractable argument. This is an impasse. Basically, Yoda gives Anakin completely unrealistic advice on how to deal with his problems (granted, he doesn't have all the information), but this is still not comforting or compassionate advice. He tells Anakin to forget it...no, don't forget it, rejoice in the death of your wife! Honestly, who could follow that advice?

 

Yoshi, perhaps if you could tell me what you would accept as appropriate advice, we could discuss the scene based on what you would like Yoda to say and do.

 

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[b]Eh, this is an intractable argument. This is an impasse. Basically, Yoda gives Anakin completely unrealistic advice on how to deal with his problems (granted, he doesn't have all the information), but this is still not comforting or compassionate advice. He tells Anakin to forget it...no, don't forget it, rejoice in the death of your wife! Honestly, who could follow that advice?[/b]

But Yoshi what is the other option. He has failed once before to stop someone from dying and he will fail again to stop someone from dying. Tell me Yoshi how does he finally succeed in rotj? That is all I am asking

 

Well, for starters, Yoda could have acknowledged that it's appropriate and normal to mourn the loss of loved one's and miss them. He could have told Anakin that he's going through something very normal, and given him words of comfort. What Yoda tells Anakin alienates him even further from the Jedi.

 

Well, for starters, Yoda could have acknowledged that it's appropriate and normal to mourn the loss of loved one's and miss them. He could have told Anakin that he's going through something very normal, and given him words of comfort. What Yoda tells Anakin alienates him even further from the Jedi.


Yoshi Anakin is not concerned with that its normal to mourn the loss of a loved one/He doesnt want to mourn he wants to stop someone from dying and yeah going through mourning is normal but in Anakin's case thats not what he want to hear." I will even learn to stop people from dying."

 

That's what I have been trying to say. Anakin doesn't want to mourn Padme at all. So hearing Yoda say it's ok to mourn is the same thing as hearing him say don't mourn. Anakin doesn't want to mourn or grieve - he wants to control life and death.