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The Jedi Council DID Insult Anakin By not Making him a Master....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by obiwankoti, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 7, 2002
    But did Yoda talk to Anakin about this pain that he felt him have in AOTC? Anyone know?
     
  2. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 27, 2005
    It's a good question - I don't know which EU book would have covered that. Obi-Wan definitely knows because Padme told him about Shmi. Yoda probably also knows, but I'm not certain of an actual meeting between the two or not.
     
  3. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2005
    Yes, the COUncil did insult him...but they couldn't trust him...I believe their decision was the right one..
     
  4. Get_in_Gear

    Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2004
    I think Anakin was a logical choice.
    He was in the priviliged position of being close to the Chancellor.
    I think you have to keep remembering that Palpatine was still just a corrupt Chancellor to the Jedi.
    They thought the Sith were manipulating him, but they did not see him as a "player" just a puppet.
    That is what they were basing all of their decisions on, that Palpatine would lead them to the Sith, and that if they put a spanner in Palpatine's works then the Sith would be forced to show his hand.

    Flawed though Anakin may have been, I see no reason that the Jedi presume that he had such deep-rooted problems that he might screw the Jedi over for the Sith, which is basically what he does.
    They don't know the whole Padmé thing, and they don't know what Palpatine has promised Anakin.
    And, most importantly, they don't know Palpatine IS a Sith, and that he has been distorting Anakin's perception to an extent that he would actually question his place and duty.
    They don't know what Palpatine has done to Anakin - because to them he is just another corrupt Senator being pushed around by some elusive unknown quantity.

    This mission was a chance for Anakin to prove himself to the Jedi.
    He screwed it up.
    His descent is based on greed - his own greed.
     
  5. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 27, 2005
    A "spanner" in the works. Nice one.

    :)

     
  6. Get_in_Gear

    Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Nov 29, 2004
    Ignoring EU (which I'm not sure provides an answer to this question anyhoo), I'd say we can assume that the Jedi learned of Shmi's death after the events of AOTC.
    ...And it follows that this would explain the connection Yoda made with Anakin's pain.
    It seems logical to me that Ani got another dose of the "dwell not on those that have passed" mentality at this juncture.

    Perhaps the answer is, Anakin would have been expected to go to his Masters with any problems he may have rather than vice versa.
    As he does in ROTS.
    Perhaps the whole point may be that Anakin never confronted Yoda about the AOTC thing; while ROTS certainly establishes that, once again, Ani went to the Chancellor with his problems: "Remember what you told me about your mother and the Sand People."


    EDIT: Am I going mad, or has the "edit" button moved? And have we always had 35 minutes to edit messages or did it used to be 30? Weird.
     
  7. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2005
    I think Anakin was a logical choice.

    maybe it's really a logic vs emotion debate here, which i used to doubt...

    logic isn't always the best choice, sometimes you've got to trust your guts on things.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi Code quote was also in "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter" which I finally read this past weekend. In the book, Michael Reeves spends time examing what the Code is and what it means.

    In the eu, I think Yoda talking to Anakin about what he sensed would've taken place in the latter half of the Jedi Quest books. The ones that took place during the Clone Wars. I do know that Anakin went to Tatooine where he was confronted by A'Shared Hett, a Lost Jedi who has been living with the Tusken Raiders for a number of years. Hett confronted him about the Slaughter and they even fought. Hett sensed all of Anakin's anger and hate, which prompted him to tell Anakin that he needs to discuss his problems with the Council. Anakin says that he'll think about it, but he doesn't. This takes place during Star Wars Republic, which I believe has been collected in TPB format.
     
  9. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002

    Yes, Anakin should have exercised a little more control of his emotions. But what the Jedi Council did . . . setting him up like that to spy on Palpatine . . . and lying about it when they first appointed him to the Council was not only wrong, it was stupid. I remember when I first saw the movie and my initial reaction was - "what the hell are they doing"? And those feelings still persist.

    One can blame Anakin for over-reacting to the Council's decision. But the Jedi Council are not exempt from blame, themselves. It was a piss-poor way to treat someone who is trying his level best to live up to their ideals. And I believe that their fears of Anakin, his relationship with Palpatine and the uncertain future that he represented, influenced them in the worst way.
     
  10. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2005
    RamRed, how would you have attempted to discover the Sith plot if spying is not the answer?
     
  11. soitscometosith

    soitscometosith Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2005
    ...someone who is trying his level best to live up to their ideals...

    He's frickin' married! Plus, he's covering up his Tusken massacre. He is trying to be a good Jedi, but he also wants a wife on the side, plus power and recognition. It's like a woman who wants to be a nun, but also wants a great sex-life and a high salary. There is a choice that has to be made.

     
  12. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2005
  13. thechozn1

    thechozn1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2005
    Hahaha, that's awesome. I've been in a bad mood about turning 25 all day, but that actually made me laugh.
     
  14. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2005
    3000th post!!!









    Meow
     
  15. AnnLouise

    AnnLouise Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2005
    =D=

    GL, on the DVD commentary, states, in essence that Palps knows the Council will react the way it does, and he puts Anakin on the Council in order to deepen Ani's mistrust of the Jedi. So IMO, the question of insulting Anakin is besides the point, since the motive behind the Chancelors action was not legitimate. He was promoting the Sith agenda, not the preservation of the Republic. Palps counted on Anakin FEELING he was insulted.
     
  16. Jedi-Queen

    Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2005
    "Palps counted on Anakin FEELING he was insulted"

    Absolutely. Palps counted on Ani's ego to come into play b/c
    he knew if the council allowed his appointment they would not
    grant him the rank of Master and that would cause major friction
    and mistrust from Ani. Just the appointment alone would cause the
    council to mistrust Palp's motives and Ani b/c of his closeness
    to Palps. It was a no win situation for the Jedi IMO.
     
  17. AnnLouise

    AnnLouise Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2005
    No the Jedi offered him the solution he didn't want to hear. GL says in the ROTS DVD commentary that Anakin wants to go against the natural order of life, which includes death.

    And many of us (including me) have loved ones who are dealing with life-threatening health issues, and DO understand what may happen to the ones they love. We have learned that part of loving someone means being prepared to lose them. So please to not lecture on our lack of compassion for those in such a position.
    I deal with it every day.

    -Sorry to sound so angry, but I can't accept the argument that Anakin is basically justified in his reaction because he wants to save a loved one, and that those who disagree must not have loved ones, or understand the issues involved.
     
  18. Jedi-Queen

    Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2005
    "You obviously either have no love ones, or have no idea what that means"

    That was a personal and uncalled for attack IMO and certainly
    doesn't belong here.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, I agree. Don't do it again.
     
  20. obiwankoti

    obiwankoti Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2005
    Absolutely. Palps counted on Ani's ego to come into play b/c
    he knew if the council allowed his appointment they would not
    grant him the rank of Master and that would cause major friction
    and mistrust from Ani. Just the appointment alone would cause the
    council to mistrust Palp's motives and Ani b/c of his closeness
    to Palps. It was a no win situation for the Jedi IMO.


    When oh when are people gonna stop saying the Jedi had no choice?. or it was a no win situation. they did not HAVE to take this avenue. they could do lots of things.they had a choice. they could have said no. period. Palpatine was in no position at that time to be able to force The Jedi, the ones who were leading the War against the Seps to do anything of the sort. [face_tired]

    and as ObiWan clearly states:

    " The ONLY reason you are on the Council IS because of your FRIENDSHIP with the chancellor "

    And that alone is an Insulting statement. they wanted to use and Take advantage of Anakin's friendship. and his Merit has NOTHING to do with them accepting. it was a big error. and it is reason for Anakin to become disillusioned.
     
  21. EwokThatCried

    EwokThatCried Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 22, 2003
    [blockquote] he knew if the council allowed his appointment they would not
    grant him the rank of Master and that would cause major friction
    and mistrust from Ani. Just the appointment alone would cause the
    council to mistrust Palp's motives and Ani b/c of his closeness
    to Palps. It was a no win situation for the Jedi IMO.[hr][/blockquote][/b]

    Yep. That's pretty much exactly what George Lucas says on the commentary.
    >
     
  22. quigondenn

    quigondenn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2000
    This might have been mentioned in the earlier 27 pages, but wasn't Ki-Adi-Mundi's originally described as the sole jedi knight on the jedi council during TPM. Even the databank of SW.COM actually says that "Ki-Adi-Mundi's ascension to the rank of Jedi Master was still in progress when the Naboo crisis arose."

    Looks like somebody forgot to update the SW.COM website?
     
  23. arbed

    arbed Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2004
    Excellent question above, Ewokthatcried. I was so desparately pointing out the same thing a few pages back. "How do you root out the Sith if spying is unacceptable?" As I have said, the council should have explained their reasons better but Anakin shouldn't be insulted for being asked to do his duty. He is a member of the order and I'm sure Jedi are assigned many tasks, assignments, missions, et al that they do not like, but they do their duty.

    This argument keeps coming back to two main points: One side saying Anakin is supposed to do his duty, against the other side saying it wasn't proper for the Jedi to ask Anakin to spy. Reiterate: the jedi didn't have all the facts they needed, hence the need to get more, and hindsight is always better than foresight. Back to all this again. The same cat chasing his tail scenario here. Both sides have their points and I think we can see both sides.

    A lot of times, there are two sides to the story. It isn't always one way is right, one way is wrong, there are shades of gray when total knowledge of a situation isn't known. That is what the Jedi were dealing with. They had to go on what they knew at the time, not what the audience already knows because they see the movies out of order.
     
  24. Dark_Disciple

    Dark_Disciple Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2005
    obiwankoti posted the following:

    When oh when are people gonna stop saying the Jedi had no choice?. or it was a no win situation. they did not HAVE to take this avenue. they could do lots of things.they had a choice. they could have said no. period. Palpatine was in no position at that time to be able to force The Jedi, the ones who were leading the War against the Seps to do anything of the sort.

    The spy issue doesn't even work anyway, because Anakin pretty much tells Palps straight away that he is asked to spy on him for the council. He says this in the opera scene. From my pov, the Jedi council acted more like politicians a la circa the fall of the roman empire than honourable Jedi knights. People argue that Anakin was desperate and panicked in his actions and in his thinking but the Jedi also appear to suffer from this reactionary behaviour. They were many heads, not one, in the council, and they clearly didn't use that very effectively to come up with any real ideas or strategies to deal with the dark side clouding everything, and how they could get a handle on what to do about it. Why did they feel the need to put it all on Anakin's shoulders anyway? If they suddenly wanted to use him because he was the chosen one, well that was a pretty ineffective way to do it. Make someone disloyal to a longtime friend and mentor (Anakin doesn't know Palps is Sidious at this point), give them a phony position on the council (he's truly not really seen as a real member by the others) and then give them the spy mission (not in council), through the only other ally he has, Obi-Wan, driving a nice big wedge there too.

    and as ObiWan clearly states:

    " The ONLY reason you are on the Council IS because of your FRIENDSHIP with the chancellor "

    And that alone is an Insulting statement. they wanted to use and Take advantage of Anakin's friendship. and his Merit has NOTHING to do with them accepting. it was a big error. and it is reason for Anakin to become disillusioned.


    A Jedi should have humility, but really, what Jedi wouldn't have been insulted by that statement as obiwankoti points out. Anakin would have felt quite the outsider. They already tell him they don't trust Palps, and since Anakin is a friend of Palps, then by extension one could argue that they also don't trust him either, that's not a nice place to be, and I can see why he starts to feel excluded. Up until this point, Anakin has been a true patriot, loyal to the republic, a great warrior and fullfilled all that has been asked of him at this point with that regard, so why the thinly veiled contempt?
     
  25. obiwankoti

    obiwankoti Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2005
    A Jedi should have humility, but really, what Jedi wouldn't have been insulted by that statement as obiwankoti points out. Anakin would have felt quite the outsider. They already tell him they don't trust Palps, and since Anakin is a friend of Palps, then by extension one could argue that they also don't trust him either, that's not a nice place to be, and I can see why he starts to feel excluded. Up until this point, Anakin has been a true patriot, loyal to the republic, a great warrior and fullfilled all that has been asked of him at this point with that regard, so why the thinly veiled contempt?

    excellent post. Although we do know Anakin has done Questionable , and wrong things, and this is not to excuse them ,cause they are not to be. but the Jedi don't know of them . Anakin really was a Patriot. he and Kenobi were THE heros of the War. Anakin has put himself at great risk to save ObiWan for at least 9 times , if you don't count that Business on Cato Neimoidia :p and has ben noted as a " Hero without fear " . but nonetheless. and what does he get for it?. he gets told that his friendship with the Chancellor , a friendship the the Jedi have allowed , is Wrong. and that the Chancellor , a Mentor that the Jedi have allowed him to have is Questionable. perhaps allowing this friendship was the Jedi's worst mistake. so when the Chancellor makes a obvious move and appoints Anakin to the Council , the Jedi , always Distrustful of Politicians , and the Chancellor , as of the events of ROTS, take the Bait. and instead of clearly making Anakin feel that they are on his side, but need him to perform this Delicate Spying scenario, they allow his appointment , based only on his ability to get close to Palpatine , and accept his Appointment in no way whatsover based on all his Patriotic and Heroic deeds. well really how can we say that a Jedi with any self respect could feel good about that?. we should not be able to, or the Jedi that we know are indeed Blind and very Arrogant. Anakin has always felt like an outsider , and the more heroics he performs and the More accomplishes , they seem to want to make him feel more like an outsider , than someone who is being respected for these traits. really what would any Jedi feel. and compound that with al the lies Palpatine has been feeding him, which seem to almost ring true by actions such as telling him that his friendship with Palps is the ONLY reason he is even on the Council, well what would they expect?. obviously not a Betrayal. but he had a right to be upset. absolutely.
     
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